Patsys Clothes?

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,



No Patsy could not predict the future. She was upstairs and JonBenet was downstairs, the person to discover JonBenet was John, not Patsy.

At 6AM Patsy did not know come 7AM whether she would be sitting in a police interview room, or still waiting for JonBenet to be found?

Wearing those same clothes links her directly to wine-cellar crime-scene, so accounting for fiber evidence cannot be the motive.

Lack of time is a possible reason, but its doubtfull since it probably takes the same time to dress fresh than old?

I suspect the real reason Patsy was dressed in worn clothes was because she had intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors, using the car, and wearing yesterdays clothing would be consistent with any fibers discovered?



.

What I'm saying is,maybe there was fiber evidence found on the bathtub,so Patsy says that she put her clothes there?

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I've always thought that in their panic, it did not occur to her to change her clothes. I don't see the Ramsey's as great criminal masterminds. Just a couple of terrified people trying to hide an awful event. If the BPD weren't so inept, I don't think the R's would have gotten away with it at all.

I agree. I think clothes were forgotten along with the pineapple and the flashlight...except JR, who took a shower - why him and not Patsy? Did she run out of time, maybe writing that ridiculous RN?

Who puts their clothes in the bathtub? Is it just me, or is that really odd? The tub is the last place I'd leave clothes - I leave my clothes on a chair, laid over the seat or the back. The bathtub, unless just scrubbed, would have soap residue or something in it - and even still if it had just been scrubbed. And notice she said:

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

Here is again is the use of the word "probably," just like in John Ramsey's description of climbing in the window. How does "probably" come into it? Where the clothes in the bathtub or not? Patsy remembers getting up and changing her underwear, saying that's

"15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do"

I'm sorry, this whole story of getting up and "probably" digging her clothes out of the bathtub (?) sounds completely weird and unlikely.

 

[ANGRYWOLF]

I understand things have been heated at various boards ..for years...people who frankly hated Patsy and were consummed with their belief she was guilty...and those people have made things difficult for those of us who believe otherwise. I was hoping Karr was guilty...so I could tell people I knew it..I knew Pasy was innocent..smile. there are some in LE who believe Karr received information from Jon Benet's killer..That explains how he knows so much.
Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.
I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .:behindbar

 

[JMO8778]

That explains how he knows so much.

He knows what he was told and heard,that's it.

Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.

I think the White's,Santa Bill,jeff merrick and LHP are among those who's innocent shoes we should walk in.

I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .

Even so,the person would still have to be proved to be in Boulder at that time;it would still only be a partial match.
I have a feeling future DNA technology is going to blow this case out of the water..things like the actual age of the dna,and maybe more, are going to be proved.Then what are the R's and team going to have to have left to go on?
I think the proof is in the pudding..I think we're still going to be here 30+ yrs from now,talking about how this case was unsolved...and the rest will still be looking for that elusive 'intruder'.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree. I think clothes were forgotten along with the pineapple and the flashlight...except JR, who took a shower - why him and not Patsy? Did she run out of time, maybe writing that ridiculous RN?

Who puts their clothes in the bathtub? Is it just me, or is that really odd? The tub is the last place I'd leave clothes - I leave my clothes on a chair, laid over the seat or the back. The bathtub, unless just scrubbed, would have soap residue or something in it - and even still if it had just been scrubbed. And notice she said:

3 PATSY RAMSEY: My clothes were

4 probably thrown on the bathtub (INAUDIBLE).

Here is again is the use of the word "probably," just like in John Ramsey's description of climbing in the window. How does "probably" come into it? Where the clothes in the bathtub or not? Patsy remembers getting up and changing her underwear, saying that's

"15 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably what I

16 thought I would do"

I'm sorry, this whole story of getting up and "probably" digging her clothes out of the bathtub (?) sounds completely weird and unlikely.

Nuisanceposter,

Yes why the bathtub? Running the taps and wiping with a cloth or using a shower head would soon clean it up? I cannot see why Patsy has to link her clothes to the bathtub, her fibers may have arrived there, airborne, well that would be the courtroom defense.

Patsy is either using her clothes to hide something else or intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors.

If its correct to assume that John wiped JonBenet down with his Iraeli woolen shirt, then possibly John was more contaminated with forensic evidence than Patsy, maybe even blood-stained?

Could it be John needed the shower and clean clothes because he was the one that killed JonBenet and Patsy revised the staging because they could not dump JonBenet outdoors, even though she was wrapped in blankets ready to go?


.

 

[UKGuy]

What I'm saying is,maybe there was fiber evidence found on the bathtub,so Patsy says that she put her clothes there?

JMO8778,

How would Patsy know that? Just like why would she know there was fiber evidence down in the wine-cellar?

If Patsy was as calculating as we are assuming, then wearing the same outfit again can only be to avoid contaminating part of the crime-scene with fibers from a clean outfit?

That is she knew prior to staging the wine-cellar crime scene that she should be wearing it, or/and she killed JonBenet fully dressed in the same outfit she wore to the White's.


.

 

[Show Me]

I understand things have been heated at various boards ..for years...people who frankly hated Patsy and were consummed with their belief she was guilty...and those people have made things difficult for those of us who believe otherwise. I was hoping Karr was guilty...so I could tell people I knew it..I knew Pasy was innocent..smile. there are some in LE who believe Karr received information from Jon Benet's killer..That explains how he knows so much.
Of course you hear from LE their version of events...which persuades some people the Ramseys were uncooperative and such. I think people who believe that should find themselves falsely accused of murder and see how they react.Walk a mile in the accused shoes.
I think it comes down as to whether the dna is legitimate.Is from the killer..or an accomplice.If it is there will be a match through codis some day .:behindbar

Yeah someday maybe they might match the degraded dna with someone. I can't understand how a killer can only leave degraded dna....you'd think with dna being small he'd shed at least a whole dna somewhere.

Karr didn't even know the details of how JonBenet was murdered Tracey had to keep prompting Karr in the emails.

Karr claimed he picked JonBenet up from school on Christmas eve.

I've followed this case from day one and reading DOI, the Ramsey book, which made my mind up....Patsy had guilty knowledge and participated in the murder writing the ransom note.

John is on a publicity campaign and people who haven't followed this case are swallowing his spin hook, line and sinker.....for now.

 

[JMO8778]

Nuisanceposter,

Yes why the bathtub? Running the taps and wiping with a cloth or using a shower head would soon clean it up? I cannot see why Patsy has to link her clothes to the bathtub, her fibers may have arrived there, airborne, well that would be the courtroom defense.

Patsy is either using her clothes to hide something else or intended to dump JonBenet's body outdoors.

If its correct to assume that John wiped JonBenet down with his Iraeli woolen shirt, then possibly John was more contaminated with forensic evidence than Patsy, maybe even blood-stained?

Could it be John needed the shower and clean clothes because he was the one that killed JonBenet and Patsy revised the staging because they could not dump JonBenet outdoors, even though she was wrapped in blankets ready to go?


.

Could be,or she didn't change b/c she didn't think to? She was busy revising the note while JR showered?It does seem they were running out of time,since the 911 call came in rather late,per their previous plans to fly out of state.Do we know all there is to know about fiber evidence,or is something possibly being held back from the public?
I've always wondered if the wine cellar or basement(or even the upper floors) were sprayed with luminol to ck for any blood wiped away(since there was blood found wiped away on JB?)
If JR did it,then I can't understand why on earth she would cover for him.

 

[Ames]

Ames I am so glad you are here. I am so happy to see you here.

Hey there!! I thought that was you, but wasn't sure. I wanted to say something to you earler, but thought that it could be someone using the same screen name. I am happy to be here...and happy that I know a couple of the posters!!! Seems to be not alot of bashing...if any...going on, on this board. What a refreshing change of pace!!!

 

[Ames]

It took months for the cops to get the clothes from Patsy for testing, had to go through the lawyers, Ramseys didn't volunteer to hand the clothes over.....she was fond of that outfit!

LOL...extremely fond of it! She didn't want to part with it, did she? Hmmmm....I wonder why an "innocent" person wouldn't want to just hand their clothes over?

 

[Ames]

Dont get me wrong i think the ramseys are guilty of murdering JonBenet, but i dont think the fact that Patsy wore the same clothes is indicative of guilt, although waiting months to hand them over to LE is suspicious.

Yep...it SURE is!! Man, I am SO happy to be on this board with all of the poster's that think that the Ramsey's (or A Ramsey) is GUILTY! I am in good company! I just switched over from the courttv boards, and there are so many posters on there that believe that an intruder did it (IDI)...that its ridiculous.

 

[Ames]

Nobody has ever said that Patsy stank "to high heaven". Nor do I think she'd be "stinking to high heaven" after wearing an outfit for only a few hours at a social get together in mid winter. Maybe if she'd been moving furniture in a fish factory during a heat wave.

Patsy's Christmas outfit consisted of a red and black fleecy seasonal-styled "blazer" and a pair of black velvet trousers. She wore them for a few hours of socialising and decided to put them on again the following day. I honestly cannot see the problem with this - especially since it was a "Christmas" outfit - i.e. one which she might only choose to wear during 2/3 festive days of the year.

The theory that her wearing the same outfit meant she hadn't been to bed is non-sensical for one big reason. If Patsy had come home from the Whites, murdered her daughter, staged the crime scene and then called the police - all whilst wearing the same outfit...... there would have been a TON of forensic evidence on that outfit. Patsy had no way of knowing that the police wouldn't have immediately arrested her and John and taken their clothing for testing.

If Patsy had been up all night committing murder and covering it up, the most important part of the cover up would have been to change or get rid of her clothing.

OTOH, she claimed she hadn't had a shower AND that she had decided to wear the same clothes again. It's possible that was a very CLEVER part of the staging if she had indeed had a shower and laundered the clothes that she had worn to commit the crime.

Good point! I had a thought (everybody stand back...LOL)....I was thinking that maybe, just maybe...she was wearing those clothes (that she had on at the Whites) AT FIRST, maybe during some of the staging, because she wasn't thinking about fibers at the moment. She could have changed, mid-stream, into some old clothes, after realizing that fibers could be linked back to her. And THEN...just in CASE JB's body did happen to get a few fibers from the outfit that she had on at the White's (during the staging).....she decided to put that outfit back on, to be able to explain the fibers away. Its just a thought..

 

[Ames]

Ames, I'm really glad to see you here, too.

:blushing: Thanks...I feel so warm and fuzzy!!! I am so happy to be here...geez...what took me so long to find this board??

 

[Ames]

We don't know about the underwear - and will likely never know. We know she says she didn't have a shower because her shower was broken, but we don't know when she last had a shower or where she last had a shower or why she didn't simply use one of the many other showers or baths in the house.

IMO...she didn't take a shower, because she was way to busy writing a bogus three page ransom letter...AND staging a coverup. Doesn't leave much time for a shower...IMO.

 

[Ames]

Personally, I can't see wearing the same outfit the next day. She had a closet full of clothes, I can't believe she'd want to put on the same clothes she'd worn the night before.

True, after wearing in only a few hours it wouldn't have been as raunchy as if she'd worn it the entire day, but I know from just having gone through Christmas socializing that plenty can happen to make an outfit less then fresh in a few hours.

I don't know about others, but when I'm dressed in a long-sleeved shirt with a jacket type garment over it inside someone's house, I end up perspiring - especially when I'm talking and laughing and moving around, having a good time. That alone would have me not wanting to dress in the same clothes the next day, and add into that the atmosphere - were people smoking in the White's house during the party? I'm not a smoker, and when I realize I've been around smokers enough for the smell to have gotten on my clothes, I change those clothes. Patsy was a former smoker. Perhaps the smoke smell, if there was any, didn't bother her.

But flying to Michigan...being on a plane for more than an hour in an outfit that may smell of smoke or perspiration would be more than I could handle, not to mention I don't think it would be as comfortable as, say, jeans and sweatshirt. Patsy was also going to spending time with Melinda's fiancé, Stewart Long, someone she barely knew. I'd be surprised if Patsy was all set to wow the new beau in an outfit she'd had on the night before as well as on the flight up to Michigan. I just don't think it fits in with who her friends say she was - her own friends expressed disbelief that Patsy would get up and redress in the same outfit she'd worn the night before. it wasn't like she didn't have any other Christmas-y outfit she could have worn....

And then there's the fiber evidence. The fibers found in the paint tray, on the tape, and tied into the ligature knot were chemically and microscopically consistent with Patsy's jacket, which leads me to believe that she had that jacket on when she staged the scene, with the tape and tying the ligature around JB's neck. That makes me wonder...how likely is it that she'd be doing all of that still in her jacket? I've never staged a crime scene and killed a child, but I'm pretty sure I'd make myself comfortable and shed off the jacket before I rolled up my sleeves to do the dirty work. I sure as heck would not be standing there in the same outfit I'd had on all night when the police arrived.

So what's the real story in regards to the jacket and Patsy wearing it two days in a row?

I have never staged a crime scene and killed a child, either....BUT.. I believe that I would be too caught up in the moment, and way to panicked...to remember to take my jacket off. I think that all of this happened pretty quickly, and in the heat of the moment...Patsy simply forgot to remove her jacket. (IMO)

 

[Ames]

Charlie, Patsy was a very wealthy woman with clothes galore ok. She was a former contestant in the Miss America Contest. She had probably thousands of dollars of clothing ready for wearing at her disposal. I assure you she always looked fashion plate ready and played the part of a wealthy socialite woman to a T. Her makeup was freshly applied. Its only my opinion that it would defy logic to plan to wear previously worn clothes on a trip then change into whatever she had up there at Charlevoix to meet the new son in law. I am sure she had a perfect outfit at the ready. And would have presented herself and the family picture perfect. That was Patsy to which Boulder knew. I also want to note something many from Boulder noted as a changed habit of Patsy's her fondness for wearing the same outfit again and again and again after JonBenet died. Like the blue suit with the white trim. Patsy was not one to wear outfits out before. That was an observation more than a fact. That is only an opinion.

IMO...I agree with you. I am quite positive that Patsy had a closet FULL of nice clothes. Why would she want to wear the same thing, two days in a row...no matter HOW NICE the outfit was?

 

[Ames]

Patsy spent more than a few hours in the clothes, not only attending the White's Christmas party she also delivered Christmas presents to friends then did things around the house before 'dressing in her jammies'.

I'd say she wore the outfit at least 6 hours, the housekeeper claimed Patsy threw her clothes around, so she'd probably dropped them on a chair or floor.
Patsy wakes up, discovers her shower is broken and for some reason can't use any of the other three bathrooms in the house.

Well heck didn't take a shower why not wear the clothes from the night before....wayyyyy to much trouble to walk all the way to the closet and have to pick an outfit.

Maybe she received a ton of compliments and thought....'my future son in law must see me in the outfit! What an impression I'll make'.

IMO Patsy never changed her clothes that night and that is why the fibers are evidence.

Plus the police didn't get the outfit from Patsy for months and months....so who knows if blood was on the outfit?

I really enjoy your posts...you are SOOO funny! I agree with you...if she can't use one of the three other bathrooms in the house, to take a shower, geez louise...at LEAST put on a change of clothes!! If only for the sake of those around her....seriously, she would have had to have been pretty doggone stinky. A thought just occured to me, that maybe when the investigators arrived, she thought that she MUST be pretty stinky, from all of that ransom note writing, and staged coverup stuff, so she told them that she didn't take a shower....coupled with the fact that she was wearing the same outfit as the day before. THUS...covering her butt on the fiber evidence, and her stinkiness. Does this make sense??

 

[Ames]

Show Me,



Does this mean Patsy rose to deal with JonBenet wetting the bed, so decided to redress in yesterdays clothes, or did she get dressed prior to applying the garrote to JonBenet down in the basement?

Or did she never go to bed, nor get undressed, so does this mean she killed JonBenet while fully dressed?

Something does not quite add up here?



.

My opinion....she never went to bed that night, therefore, she never changed into any jammies.

 

[Ames]

I wonder if her makeup was 'fresh' b/c she'd been crying over JB's death,and she had to reapply it?

Yeppers...I have often wondered that too.

 

[Ames]

LOL.
In DOI,she leads the reader to believe the clothes were close at hand,like on a chair nearby.She says she 'swings out of bed and promptly remembers her shower is broken'. (never mind they have plenty more that aren't!).Then she says, 'oh well, don't need one this morning'. (yea,lets just go smelly).So she reaches for her clothes and starts dressing.(she must have long arms since they were far away in the bathroom !)
No shower,yesterday's clothes,but she put on her makeup b/c her mom taught her to 'never leave the house without your makeup on'.Plus,she wants to impress Melinda's finace,who will be with them.
....something wrong with this pic????

Sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me. By the way...I am originally from SOUTH Carolina!! (I see that you are in NC).