Patsy's makeup that morning

[SapphireSteel]

I like this theory a lot 4Jacy and it keeps playing in my mind. However, so much was bungled during the staging and coverup, I wonder if PR actually had the presence of mind to make an intelligent decision such as: "Well, I was wearing this outfit while dressing and staging my dead daughter, so I better have it on when the police arrive and find her, so I can throw myself on her lifeless body thus intermingling any fibers that may already be on her."

Another thing about that outfit, it just doesn't impress me as comfortable travel attire, but that's just me.

Just had another thought: It could have been JR who instructed PR to put back on her Christmas outfit and apply a fully made-up face.

I don't think she ever took it off.

I think that whatever happened that night had happened before, probably many times.

I personally think PR was up all night first raging, then abusing, then staging.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if JR was up doing the same.

It was Christmas after all...they deserved a "present" too. :sick:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

FWIW, I'd place PR in the "greasy face" category.

In fact I think if you track down her own pageant photos, the grease is obvious. Shiny oily skin that doesn't easily wrinkle.

:twocents:

The clothes are what gets me. An entire houseful of the latest fashion and she keeps yesterday's clothes on? No way.

However at this point she has gone through cancer is most likely perimenopausal and would be more dry at this age..
It happens to all of us.
I can go to bed and wake up looking like I just went to bed. My hair does not go crazy and my makeup stays pretty week depending on the brand.

I have many times gotten up, Thrown on what I had the night before and made sure every one else was okay before I go back and shower and put on fresh clothes. I don't see this as anything but a judgment call and peoples personal feelings, nothing that proves anything..

OMO

 

[UKGuy]

This "fully dressed with make-up" part of this case has always bothered me.

I will give Patsy that people's grooming habits are individual and I've never seen any unbiased proof of what hers truly were on any given day.

But the family was supposed to fly out of Boulder that morning to meet with family, so an argument can be made that it wouldn't be odd for her to get dressed and ready quickly after getting up, before "finding" the ransom note.

What does bother me about any theory that includes Patsy having on the same clothes from the night before is this: many people (me) take off their dressier clothes when they get home after a long day. Why would Patsy still be wearing her slacks, jacket, sweater/turtleneck/whatever she actually had on ALL NIGHT, even if the family were in varying stages of killing JonBenet?

I can see her jacket fibers being transferred to various other items of clothing she wore, as well as to clothing others in the family wore that day. So that's always one of those circumstantial pieces of evidence that has to have a lot of other evidence adding up to make it important, like the ransom note she obviously wrote.

I guess what I contemplate is, if Patsy still had her clothing on she wore to the White's when all this was going down, it must have happened pretty soon after the Ramseys got home.

Like maybe she had taken her jacket off, stepped out of her shoes into some more comfy slippers while she fed the hungry kids a snack before putting them to bed...then BAM! It all blew up and she never got out of her clothing.

But that can be argued so many ways.

What is significant circumstantial evidence to me are the numerous fibers from Patsy's Christmas party clothing found on the duct tape, in the paint tray, and tied into the knots of the garrote cord.

Her make-up could easily have been touched up before calling 911 to back up the story she had concocted for LE. I believe they wanted to be ready to leave the house as soon as the body was found, which ANYONE would have expected that to happen within minutes of LE arriving. The plane was ready to fly that morning, with pilot, and changing the flight from Charlevoix to Atlanta was clearly on JR's mind as he went straight for that plan once he "found" the body. Oops. That quick getaway didn't happen.

Y'all know Patsy wore wigs, right? I can't remember if she had a wig on that morning or not. So long ago now....

KoldKase,
Did I ever mention I lurv your accent? Now on Patsy and her clothes, lets apply some common sense.

Patsy any day of the week would arise shower, dress and do makeup etc.

Except on 12/26/1996 she arose dressed in her clothes from the night before, retouched her makeup, I forget the shower issues, one broken etc.

So why the sudden change particularly when she is meeting up with family later that day?

Now the makeup is a personal thing some cannot be seen without, even in bed, and many must have it just so, this is what I think lies behind Patsy's face so to speak. She knew she had a public to present to so makeup was essential.

Consider the contrast between JR and PR on arising that morning and their eventual presentation. PR is dressed and made up, JR is partially naked and unkept.

A basic surface interpretation suggests JR wandered into a nightmare not of his choosing, and that PR engineered a staged domestic homicide?

Now the Q I have never seen asked is, what did JR think that morning when he saw PR in same clothes she wore to the White's?

Would it have mattered to investigators if Patsy had presented with clean fresh clothes on 12/26/1996?

My guess is not.

So when PR wears the same clothes again, it reminds me of the size-12's, i.e. the only people concerned are the Ramsey's. Nobody else in the whole wide world is interested if its Wednesday or your Red Top is what JonBenet should have worn?

So cutting to the chase, in good southern fashion, I think Patsy had a staging agenda that revolved around clothing, to this end her and JonBenet synchronised their dress.

Now on the night of 12/25/1996 some of JonBenet's clothing became forensically a no go area, this might be due to semen, blood, or sweat transfer etc.

So PR invents the story JonBenet and I argued over what she might wear to the White's, despite Patsy attesting she was not present when JonBenet bathed and dressed.

This allows differentation in the JonBenet dress story, but one that will accord with whatever PR's account is?

So it appears PR had a staging to express, including one that required the previous nights clothing, yet it seems someone vetoed this and elected another approach.

So it looks like Patsy thought I'll go with my original plan, I'll dress in last nights clothing, but I'll go along with this wine-cellar kidnapping thing, to see if it works?


So I think PR dressing up in the same clothes she wore to the White's was a staging move, possibly even thinking she could redeem or rescue another family member from prosecution?

And as time moved forward that morning JR realised stuff could be moved and prior staging might be reconsidered, with BR relocated, JR had the opportunity to basically mess stuff up, particularly that which relates to directly to JonBenet.

So everyone must consider JR's remarks in relation to the chair sitting in front of the door. Why so , why the slip up, why the mistake?


So I think Patsy wore her White's outfit because she was going to claim when she found JonBenet thats what she was wearing, i.e. conforms to the White's agenda.

And this is the important inference, kinda long winded I know, yet Patsy had a staging agenda that included the clothes she wore to the White's, but that JR for reasons yet unknown managed to write her out of that script, yet by default implicate himself in the sexual assault and death of JonBenet Ramsey.







.

 

[renah]

Lately Ive been having a hard time with regards to ANY clothing and fiber evidence.

I find it 100% possible that B and JB went down to the (chilly) basement to either play a game of House or perhaps the other old standby, Dr. and patient. For either game, it would be logical for JB to wear her mother's red jacket: She'd wear it as part of her dress-up as the mommy role, AND for extra warmth downstairs in the chilly cellar.

As to what (if any) costume B. would wear for the father or husband role... I dont know. Ive not found a description of JR's woolen israeli shirt, tho i tend to think it was a button-down type. Either way I believe costume for the man's role would be less important to wear.. Why do i think that?
Because Im going with my gut, with my intuition.

Intuitively it's my (strong) belief that the fantasy family role-playing game of that night was all B's conception. He wasnt looking at himself, & didnt need to bolster his own believability. Also, being older, stronger, etc and also possibly being more used to the chilliness down there since he is said to have played in the basement's train room...

So maybe he used his father's shirt, and maybe he didnt. Maybe he got it from the laundry shoot pile, maybe he wore it, maybe he just used it to wipe down his sister's body, Maybe maybe... Lots of possibilities--- Actually TOO many possibilities to ascribe much imp

ortance to those fibers...imo.

JB wearing her mother's holiday jacket to me is a whole lot possible--- and even probable. Therefore imo the fiber evidence holds as much weight as the touch dna.

Now, exactly why i decided to post about this -- and post it on this particular thread -- lol I dont know; its taken forever to get it written and up..!

MODS please feel free to remove/move this if its not appropriate here.

I guess my reasoning entailed removing fiber evidence as we've done with the touch dna, and the if one does so it removes a very large part of the case against Patsy...

 

[Chrishope]

Let's apply some common sense.

One person showered and changed, one person wore the same clothes from the party the night before.

Nothing unusual about JR showering and putting on fresh clothes the first thing in the morning.

Was it unusual for PR to wear the same clothes? I'd assume yes, but you know what they say about assumptions. I've known well to do women who wore the same thing 2 days in a row. Assuming it was unusual, JR would notice.

The police don't know, or care, what PR is wearing when she presents herself at her front door shortly before 6 am. The police won't realize until later that she is dressed in the same clothes that she wore to the White's party. That will only become known as the investigation goes on and pictures from the party surface.

The murderer however knows that pictures were taken, and that someone will realize the same clothes are being worn. So, why would the murderer advertise that they've been up all night murdering and staging in the same clothes ?

PR was a former beauty contestant so was capable of changing clothes quicker than the average person. She's had much practice at rapid wardrobe change. She was probably adept at rapid makeup "fixes" too.

So, if PR is the killer why would she advertise the fact that she's been up all night in the same clothes, despite having a closet full of fresh clothes ? She fails to dress differently, even though this can be accomplished in just a few minutes. If it's unusual for her to wear the same thing two days in a row, she does this on the very day when everyone will be looking for unusual behavior.

All in all, if PR is the killer, it makes more sense for her to shower, and change. Or at least change. Yet she doesn't.

There is of course one other person, one who does shower and change.

 

[DeeDee249]

Let's apply some common sense.

One person showered and changed, one person wore the same clothes from the party the night before.

Nothing unusual about JR showering and putting on fresh clothes the first thing in the morning.

Was it unusual for PR to wear the same clothes? I'd assume yes, but you know what they say about assumptions. I've known well to do women who wore the same thing 2 days in a row. Assuming it was unusual, JR would notice.

The police don't know, or care, what PR is wearing when she presents herself at her front door shortly before 6 am. The police won't realize until later that she is dressed in the same clothes that she wore to the White's party. That will only become known as the investigation goes on and pictures from the party surface.

The murderer however knows that pictures were taken, and that someone will realize the same clothes are being worn. So, why would the murderer advertise that they've been up all night murdering and staging in the same clothes ?

PR was a former beauty contestant so was capable of changing clothes quicker than the average person. She's had much practice at rapid wardrobe change. She was probably adept at rapid makeup "fixes" too.

So, if PR is the killer why would she advertise the fact that she's been up all night in the same clothes, despite having a closet full of fresh clothes ? She fails to dress differently, even though this can be accomplished in just a few minutes. If it's unusual for her to wear the same thing two days in a row, she does this on the very day when everyone will be looking for unusual behavior.

All in all, if PR is the killer, it makes more sense for her to shower, and change. Or at least change. Yet she doesn't.

There is of course one other person, one who does shower and change.

There are several reasons why Patsy may have had on the same clothing from the party when police arrived. It is interesting to note that Officer French, the first LE to arrive that morning, shortly after the 911 call, noticed that Patsy's hair and make-up were freshly done. No offense to our esteemed male posters, but most men do not notice things like that, unless the woman in question seems disheveled in some way.
So lets pick this apart....the first thought in my mind is that Patsy never went to bed that night. I believe she helped with the staging and coverup, regardless of her role in the actual crime.
I also consider that she may have decided to wear her party outfit for the plane ride to Charlevoix and the rendezvous with her stepkids. It was to be her first meeting with her stepdaughter's then-fiance, and knowing Patsy, she would have wanted to look "Christmas-y". That in itself is not suspicious.
Patsy claimed that her shower was broken- but why wouldn't she just use John's shower (they each had their own bathroom/dressing room)? OK- so with such an early rising time I can even see her skipping the shower and just getting dressed in the party clothes, fixing her hair and make-up. Not every woman has to wash her hair every day- I do, but many women can brush their hair into their usual style without a shampoo and blow-out.
However- there is something that screams her involvement and makes me certain that whether she stayed dressed all night or got redressed in the party clothes in the morning makes no difference. The FACT that fibers from her acrylic fleece jacket (which she wore over the red turtleneck as one might wear a suit jacket) were found entwined in the KNOT of the cord around JB's neck as well as inside the paint tote from which the broken brush was taken and on the INSIDE of the duct tape that had been on JB's lips place her RIGHT AT THE CRIME SCENE. Like it or not.
Patsy told police she never wore that jacket while painting. LHP was the person who carried the tote to the basement on the day of the R's party (the 23rd). Patsy claimed to have never been in the basement at all that morning- JR pulled the duct tape off and left it in the basement - it was NOT on JB's lips when Patsy threw herself on the body. There is simply no innocent way to explain her jacket fibers on the inside of that tape. As for the cord knot- JB was placed on her BACK under the Christmas Tree when Patsy laid on top of her, and the knot was at the back of her neck- against the floor.
As with many crimes, it isn't always one big thing- it is all the little things put together that point to Patsy's involvement in this crime, however much it may have been.

 

[blefuscu]

The problem I have with PDI is why? She doted on that little girl. It makes no sense for Patsy to have done it. All the evidence is circumstantial. Fibres do transfer, when people live together. However John's fibres had no business being in JB's pants. I just don't go with JR's cool as a cucumber demeanour. Patsy fell apart, how would she keep that up from 1am when JB supposedly died to the time the 911 was made several hours later. I don't think she could have.

 

[Chrishope]

There are several reasons why Patsy may have had on the same clothing from the party when police arrived. It is interesting to note that Officer French, the first LE to arrive that morning, shortly after the 911 call, noticed that Patsy's hair and make-up were freshly done. No offense to our esteemed male posters, but most men do not notice things like that, unless the woman in question seems disheveled in some way.
So lets pick this apart....the first thought in my mind is that Patsy never went to bed that night. I believe she helped with the staging and coverup, regardless of her role in the actual crime.
I also consider that she may have decided to wear her party outfit for the plane ride to Charlevoix and the rendezvous with her stepkids. It was to be her first meeting with her stepdaughter's then-fiance, and knowing Patsy, she would have wanted to look "Christmas-y". That in itself is not suspicious.
Patsy claimed that her shower was broken- but why wouldn't she just use John's shower (they each had their own bathroom/dressing room)? OK- so with such an early rising time I can even see her skipping the shower and just getting dressed in the party clothes, fixing her hair and make-up. Not every woman has to wash her hair every day- I do, but many women can brush their hair into their usual style without a shampoo and blow-out.
However- there is something that screams her involvement and makes me certain that whether she stayed dressed all night or got redressed in the party clothes in the morning makes no difference. The FACT that fibers from her acrylic fleece jacket (which she wore over the red turtleneck as one might wear a suit jacket) were found entwined in the KNOT of the cord around JB's neck as well as inside the paint tote from which the broken brush was taken and on the INSIDE of the duct tape that had been on JB's lips place her RIGHT AT THE CRIME SCENE. Like it or not.
Patsy told police she never wore that jacket while painting. LHP was the person who carried the tote to the basement on the day of the R's party (the 23rd). Patsy claimed to have never been in the basement at all that morning- JR pulled the duct tape off and left it in the basement - it was NOT on JB's lips when Patsy threw herself on the body. There is simply no innocent way to explain her jacket fibers on the inside of that tape. As for the cord knot- JB was placed on her BACK under the Christmas Tree when Patsy laid on top of her, and the knot was at the back of her neck- against the floor.
As with many crimes, it isn't always one big thing- it is all the little things put together that point to Patsy's involvement in this crime, however much it may have been.

Secondary transfer is a very real possibility. No matter how BOLD you write the word entwined, it just means the fibers were on the rope when the knots were tied. They could have transferred from the dead body (well, technically the clothing/hair of the dead body) to the rope and/or to the killer's hands.

If we want to believe PR is the killer then we have to also believe she was unconcerned about wearing the same clothes - clothes which suggest she may have been up all night. Clothes which would tip off JR that something was amiss, assuming it was unusual for her to wear the same thing two days in a row.

Of course it may not have been unusual, and she did simply wear the party outfit for a few hours, not the whole day.

If she did it and she's trying to get away with it - and we know the killer is trying to get away with it, hence the staging- then why would she call attention to herself by wearing the same clothes? Why wouldn't she minimize any clues that pointed to her?

I'm sorry that the thread has been hijacked - largely by myself. It was supposed to be about the makeup. My thought is that she could probably touch up her makeup very quickly, yet expertly.


NOTE: The more matching fiber types that exist in a case, the
stronger the evidence of association. Remember that fiber matches
between two individuals who share the same environment (e.g. live
together or drive the same car) are essentially meaningless.

-http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/sites/dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/files/imported/vgn/images/portal/cit_1210/57/14/180852003GBI-TraceEvidence.pdf

 

[blefuscu]

There are many women who won't let their husband see them without their hair and make-up done. Patsy strikes me as one of those. These people aren't stupid, their friends come over to the house. If it was suspicious that Patsy was wearing the same clothes, and had her make up and hair done then surely her husband and best friends would say so. My thoughts, she got up, got washed and dressed and make up on, then went downstairs to start getting ready to go away, and found the note.

Patsy isn't likeable as she's an angry strong woman. If she'd been on TV crying and sobbing then she would be more easy to sympathise with. But I see a woman, who in early media confrontations seems to be medicated to cope, and later on seems damn angry that the case hasn't been solved. Didn't she say on TV that she wished she had been arrested so that there could have been a trial to show she was innocent?

 

[DeeDee249]

Secondary transfer is a very real possibility. No matter how BOLD you write the word entwined, it just means the fibers were on the rope when the knots were tied. They could have transferred from the dead body (well, technically the clothing/hair of the dead body) to the rope and/or to the killer's hands.

If we want to believe PR is the killer then we have to also believe she was unconcerned about wearing the same clothes - clothes which suggest she may have been up all night. Clothes which would tip off JR that something was amiss, assuming it was unusual for her to wear the same thing two days in a row.

Of course it may not have been unusual, and she did simply wear the party outfit for a few hours, not the whole day.

If she did it and she's trying to get away with it - and we know the killer is trying to get away with it, hence the staging- then why would she call attention to herself by wearing the same clothes? Why wouldn't she minimize any clues that pointed to her?

I'm sorry that the thread has been hijacked - largely by myself. It was supposed to be about the makeup. My thought is that she could probably touch up her makeup very quickly, yet expertly.


NOTE: The more matching fiber types that exist in a case, the
stronger the evidence of association. Remember that fiber matches
between two individuals who share the same environment (e.g. live
together or drive the same car) are essentially meaningless.

-http://dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/sites/dofs.gbi.georgia.gov/files/imported/vgn/images/portal/cit_1210/57/14/180852003GBI-TraceEvidence.pdf

Fibers on the cord to me say she handled the cord. And there is no innocent explanation for her fibers on the duct tape. I am not pushing PDI- but I do think she helped stage the body/crime scene.

 

[BOESP]

[snip]

Didn't she say on TV that she wished she had been arrested so that there could have been a trial to show she was innocent?

Below is a direct link to Patsy's quoted statement about wishing she had been arrested.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fextras.denverpost.com%2Fnews%2Fjon060100.htm&ei=fQULUpe6CMaA2QWV-IHoBg&usg=AFQjCNHtb3V2tVB9bwMnjgSAC6QNQgDLyg&sig2=NhoeXCTDWa-U2tldTDetHg&bvm=bv.50723672,d.b2I

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The problem I have with PDI is why? She doted on that little girl. It makes no sense for Patsy to have done it. All the evidence is circumstantial. Fibres do transfer, when people live together. However John's fibres had no business being in JB's pants. I just don't go with JR's cool as a cucumber demeanour. Patsy fell apart, how would she keep that up from 1am when JB supposedly died to the time the 911 was made several hours later. I don't think she could have.

Pasty might of doted on JonBenet, but by the time of her murder, she was being molded into Nedra Paugh's Miss America. Pasty didn't take care of her kids. LHP said JonBenet and Burke were pretty much left to their own unless others were around or they were out in public.

Pasty had a lot of stressors going on that year. She was fighting forty in a failing marriage (according to LHP). It was not the fairly tale of Miss America wins it all. The wealthy husband (sex wasn't all that to Pasty, again according to LHP), a son in counseling for who knows what (but we have our opinions because of the books on John's desk) and her little beauty pageant winner wetting the bed and asserting herself, was getting harder to deal with.

John traveled frequently and worked long hours and Pasty was left alone to manage things. According to LHP there was a lot of tension in the household.

She was on several medications and drinking more. She had a mini face lift and her breast implant's redone earlier that year and struggling with her weight, but that wasn't stopping the clock and she'd soon be middle aged.

Hmm, her shower not working. All that money spent on remodeling updating. To me it's not a big deal either in Pasty wearing the same clothes, it's what was left from them where JonBenet died and on the duct tape that make them significant.

Pasty was trying to put on the performance of her life that morning. Dramatic speech was one she's practiced and won many times in the talent portion of the pageants she's been in, and she was hoping that (and money) would save her from being arrested.

 

[Nom de plume]

I have to agree with Chrishope that the fibers could be from secondary transfer. It's possible. What gets me is how many different places the fibers were found.

In my experience, fleece does "pill". It gets little balls of fiber, but they tend to remain stuck to the fabric, and are hard to get off of it. Personally, I've never noticed fleece leaving fibers on other objects or clothing.

I could see fibers being entwined in the knot innocently from transfer off of JB's hair. Patsy probably had her arm around JB's shoulder that night, leaving fibers in her hair. What I can't see is fibers in the paint tote, and ESPECIALLY on the tape. How does one explain the fibers on the tape? It stands to reason that the tape was pulled from a roll, either cut or torn off, and placed on JB's mouth. Where do the fibers come in? Were they all over JB's hair, face, body, etc? That's just pushing common sense too far for me.

Seems those jacket fibers were everywhere! At least everywhere on JB, the cord, the tape, the paint tote, the crime scene, etc.

 

[renah]

Ive often wondered if the two children started out by playing house. And in that scenario: On their way down into the chilly basement, JonBenet grabbed her mother's jacket-- to stay warm AND to add Dress-up as part of the game...

 

[KoldKase]

I had a complete hysterectomy, including removal of ovaries, about 10 years ago, at age 35. I never went on hormone replacement (due to endomitriosis). I have yet to experience any dryness of my skin from that. At age 46 now, I still use alcohol to wipe my face off a few times a day to clean it, remove the icky feeling from the summer heat, oil and sweat. ( I never wear makeup, too lazy and just dont give a rats butt!!)

That's just my experience and hers may have been different. I swear i never thought I would be 46 and still dealing oily skin but I'm not complaining.

Not to agree or disagree about Patsy's skin type after cancer and a complete hysterectomy, but when questioned by Lou Smit in 1998, John Ramsey gave a truly sad account of what happened to Patsy's body during her cancer surgeries and treatments. It was devastating, no doubt, to both Patsy and John.

Whatever Patsy was before that, she must have been greatly changed afterward. No amount of plastic surgery or implants was going to alter her difficulties having sexual intercourse with John--he told Smit it was painful for her then.

One has to wonder how that dynamic played out for John, as well. Some think he was the abuser, having turned to JB when Patsy was not available. I have given this a lot of thought and John's attachment to his first daughter who died in the car accident, as described by the Ramseys themselves, has always given me pause for many reasons.

But I don't see any concrete evidence John was the abuser. If his shirt fibers on the genitals indicate his participation in the events of that night, I am more likely to think they got there after the head blow. Using that shirt for a "wiping" of the area to remove evidence isn't the same as sexual molestation...or that's how I'm thinking at this point.

But I have to admit I've never considered the theory put forth by renah that the children dressed in their parents' clothing to play "house". That's very interesting and I'll have to think about it.

 

[KoldKase]

KoldKase,
Did I ever mention I lurv your accent?

Why, thank you, sir. :blushing:

Now on Patsy and her clothes, lets apply some common sense.

Patsy any day of the week would arise shower, dress and do makeup etc.

Except on 12/26/1996 she arose dressed in her clothes from the night before, retouched her makeup, I forget the shower issues, one broken etc.

So why the sudden change particularly when she is meeting up with family later that day?

Very good point. Since I fully believe she had a dead or dying child on her hands during the darkest hours of her life after they got home that night, I have no problem answering this for myself.

Now the makeup is a personal thing some cannot be seen without, even in bed, and many must have it just so, this is what I think lies behind Patsy's face so to speak. She knew she had a public to present to so makeup was essential.

Well, Patsy said herself--in one of her interviews or perhaps her book, sorry can't remember which right this moment--that she was taught by her mother to do her hair and makeup religiously. She was a beauty queen, after all, and had a level of expectation to meet as the wife of AG CEO John Ramsey--something she took great pride in, as well, if you read her '95 & '96 Christmas letters. After cancer and reaching middle age, I would think she was even more meticulous about that.

Consider the contrast between JR and PR on arising that morning and their eventual presentation. PR is dressed and made up, JR is partially naked and unkept.

A basic surface interpretation suggests JR wandered into a nightmare not of his choosing, and that PR engineered a staged domestic homicide?

Now the Q I have never seen asked is, what did JR think that morning when he saw PR in same clothes she wore to the White's?

Here we part ways: all we have is the word of the Ramseys that JR was in his undies, etc., during that early "wake-up" period of dressing and "finding" the ransom note. When JR opened the door to the police, both Ramseys were fully dressed. Sorry, I'm not giving JR a pass when so much of our perception of him is based on what the Ramseys SAID, and they alone constructed the story of that morning of activity for us--which they changed countless times, I might add.

One thing that happened immediately after JR "FOUND THE BODY", as opposed to simply leading Fleet to it later that day, was he called the pilot who had been up early that morning getting the plane ready to fly to Charlevoix and with whom he'd had a private conversation not long after the 911 call as JR stated himself in his first book. Since again JR is planning a flight away from Boulder, according to his own recounting, while his child's body lies in his living room, I have no doubt he at least knew what happened to her and wanted to protect himself and his wife and son from LE, not a foreign faction.

The reason I believe that is because JR had the opportunity to call his parent company, Lockheed-Martin, to set in motion their international security protocol in the event of any kidnapping involving their executives. If my family's lives were on the line, I'd have made that call before I even called 911, but certainly after finding my child murdered by a stranger who wrote a note and dropped it and the body in my house while I slept.

In other words, instead of bringing WORLD-CLASS security to protect his family from these monsters who have proven capable of committing a terrible atrocity right under their noses, JR sets out to fly off "to Atlanta" in his little private plane with only his pilot. Ha. I don't think so. They could have been flying out of the country for all we know. Again, whatever the Ramseys said will always be suspect because we know how often they lied to LE and the public.

Add in that all the Ramsey's legal actions that afternoon and during the following days are set in motion to mount a defense: first for JR, and by all accounts, including the Ramsey's, he expected to be the prime suspect right off; then a few days later for Patsy, as defense lawyers know if/when either might be arrested their interests would have to be defended separately.

No one disputes that by the time the body was "found" and the Ramseys managed a getaway to their friends' home without going to the BPD (which they absolutely should have done--even Lou Smit said that much), they already had lawyers in action. Remember JR's account in LOI of "someone" inside the investigation calling his lawyer that morning to warn them they were already suspects? That was before the body was found.

And finally, why would they expect JR to be the prime suspect who needed to be protected right off the bat and not Patsy or Burke? Neither JR nor Patsy knew how the child had even died, according to their own stories. Who else knew? Their lawyers? How did they know? Again, the autopsy wasn't even conducted until the next morning, but the Ramseys were already lawyered up--TO PROTECT JR.

My opinion is they ALREADY knew about the sexual abuse component, which they couldn't have known before autopsy results were in, much less before the autopsy was even conducted, unless they were BOTH involved in what happened that night. That's why JR felt he would be the prime suspect immediately: as an adult male, it was inescapable. The complexities of the sexual abuse, the manner of death, and the ransom note certainly imply no child not yet 10 could have done all this.

JR knew as well as Patsy, IMO.

And JR and Patsy both were actors in the various stages of this sexual abuse, death, and cover-up.

Burke will always be on the table for some part of the acts against JonBenet, in my mind. I do feel sorry for him, though, as he was a child and but for the bad actions and choices of his parents, few would even remember his name by now, IMO.

[Continued in next post.]

 

[KoldKase]

[Continuing from your original post.]

[snip]

Would it have mattered to investigators if Patsy had presented with clean fresh clothes on 12/26/1996?

My guess is not.

So when PR wears the same clothes again, it reminds me of the size-12's, i.e. the only people concerned are the Ramsey's. Nobody else in the whole wide world is interested if its Wednesday or your Red Top is what JonBenet should have worn?

So cutting to the chase, in good southern fashion, I think Patsy had a staging agenda that revolved around clothing, to this end her and JonBenet synchronised their dress.

Now on the night of 12/25/1996 some of JonBenet's clothing became forensically a no go area, this might be due to semen, blood, or sweat transfer etc.

I'm with you here; I asked Kolar if he knew of LE ever finding those pink PJ bottoms that matched the top JB had on Christmas morning in the "opening presents" photos and he said he has no knowledge that LE recovered those.

All these years and how many times have we pondered what happened to those pink pj bottoms? I think that's mighty important when you consider the other critical missing items that are related to the crime scene: the duct tape roll (some people believe there was none as it was re-used, but I'm not in that camp); the cord source (again, some believe these were from other objects, like shoestrings or to hang a picture, etc.); the tip end of the paintbrush (which I think was spirited away with the other items to hide the fact that it had her blood on it from being inserted into the vagina); and now the pj bottoms.

So why get rid of the bottoms, as well?

Because they had damning evidence on them, is my thought: yes, semen or blood or some evidence of sexual activities. Remember the blood on the pillowcase on her bed, which Haney implied in the '98 interview (with Patsy) came from JB

Or maybe the bottoms were wet by JB, for that matter, as in Thomas' theory.

So PR invents the story JonBenet and I argued over what she might wear to the White's, despite Patsy attesting she was not present when JonBenet bathed and dressed.

This allows differentation in the JonBenet dress story, but one that will accord with whatever PR's account is?

It has always been my theory that the Ramseys had JB "asleep" when she got home, put to bed immediately, for the same reason: nothing to explain or get confused or conflicted over when relating the activities involving her before the head blow took her down. Simple: she was asleep, JR carried her to bed, Patsy did the undressing/redressing....

Yes. Patsy did the undressing/redressing--except JonBenet was dead or dying, not sleeping. Stick to the truth as much as possible, to keep from tripping up.

And yet their stories changed and they still got details wrong because theory and reality are often very different. JR said he took her coat and boots off in her room on her bed, but her coat was in the car. Burke said JB walked upstairs to her bed, on her own.

And not until this minute did I realize that of the two, Patsy inserted the paintbrush and wiped the body down, redressing it. Of course she would have, especially if JR was not the sexual abuser. A father would not be inclined to do those things to his little girl's private areas, not if her mother was there. A mother has changed many a diaper, applied salves and explored these areas for medical issues since they were born. Patsy certainly had done as much, as she related in her interviews and book that she'd applied creams; and we know JB had vaginitis from her medical records as well.

Yes, I believe that it was Patsy who did those deeds, even though it may have pained her.

Because no, I don't believe the Ramseys were enjoying the events of that night. At. All.

So it appears PR had a staging to express, including one that required the previous nights clothing, yet it seems someone vetoed this and elected another approach.

It just hit me what you meant here: JR decided to shower and change. But that may have been because he sweated a lot and his clothes showed it? We don't really know, since his original clothing never showed up for another year, if then. Kolar revealed some of the clothing the Ramseys turned over eventually appeared to have folds like it had never been worn. I wonder if that's why JR retorted to Levin in Atlanta in August of 2000 "Bull*****!" when told his shirt fibers matched those found on the child's genitals. Maybe he didn't know they'd actually be that consistent since it wasn't his actual shirt he wore that night? Just guessing, of course, but something is very wrong with the clothing "turned over" so long after the murder, which Hunter also had refused to subpoena early in the investigation.

So it looks like Patsy thought I'll go with my original plan, I'll dress in last nights clothing, but I'll go along with this wine-cellar kidnapping thing, to see if it works?


So I think PR dressing up in the same clothes she wore to the White's was a staging move, possibly even thinking she could redeem or rescue another family member from prosecution?

As we're moving through this, it's crossed my mind that maybe Patsy and/or John meant to appear guilty to take the burden off of Burke, if he was involved. Though they had all night to stage this scene, if it began, as I believe, not long after they returned home, I do have trouble imagining they were thinking of so much detail as we often attribute to them. Not that it's not possible, especially since I believe they also made phone calls that informed them at certain points as to what they needed to accomplish before that 911 call. But it is mind-boggling to imagine being that composed under the circumstances.

It's best not to forget, however, that Patsy was an award-winning actor in high school and at the Miss America pageant. Thinking on your feet is critical to that level of performance. She also was a skilled dramatic writer, with her degree in journalism. She was employed in professional advertising when she was young, as well, and she certainly drilled JonBenet for years in performances related to pageantry. A primary skill of a performer is being able to work well under pressure. Patsy spent years training in her high school competitive speech program as a dramatic interpreter. Oh, yeah, she did. Placed second at Nationals, if memory serves. I've seen those students compete and at that level, they're so good they'll make the hair stand up on your neck.

JR was no idiot, either, having snaked his company out from under his 2 co-partners and landing the CEO position in the process. He certainly knew something about lying and deceiving others, as his first wife and ex-mistress could tell. I think we sometimes forget how crafty the Ramseys were because we've been so bombarded with their "we're just an all American family of Southern Christians" propaganda for all these years.

And as time moved forward that morning JR realised stuff could be moved and prior staging might be reconsidered, with BR relocated, JR had the opportunity to basically mess stuff up, particularly that which relates to directly to JonBenet.

So everyone must consider JR's remarks in relation to the chair sitting in front of the door. Why so , why the slip up, why the mistake?

Not to mention, his faux story about how he broke and climbed in that basement window, which isn't even physically possible the way he described it to LE at 4 months and then at a year and a half later.

So I think Patsy wore her White's outfit because she was going to claim when she found JonBenet thats what she was wearing, i.e. conforms to the White's agenda.

And this is the important inference, kinda long winded I know, yet Patsy had a staging agenda that included the clothes she wore to the White's, but that JR for reasons yet unknown managed to write her out of that script, yet by default implicate himself in the sexual assault and death of JonBenet Ramsey.

So we've come to a meeting of the minds on some interesting points here.

Why implicate themselves so obviously? Any fool can see Patsy wrote that note, though many refuse to admit it and/or are in denial about it. JR had to know his actions through his lawyers were going to put him front and center, which is where the sexual assault and staging of the crime put him anyway.

He told Det. Arndt it was an inside job.

The use of JR's bonus amount was obvious.

The length and linguistics of the ransom note couldn't have screamed "RAMSEYS" more if Patsy had signed her name to it.

Ha. I have to think about this.

Because if they meant to implicate themselves all along to relieve Burke of his involvement, banking on their powerful connections with Lockheed, hoping that their lawyers could work with Hunter to destroy the case and keep them from ever being indicted, believing they'd created enough of a smoke screen to fool stupid old detectives at BPD--that is pretty much what happened.

But fate stepped in and "rookie" Steve Thomas and we old beer can collectors screwed it up for them. No wonder they hated Steve so much. They never imaged in a million years one "rogue detective" would blow their cover and the media and the Internet would then foil all their best laid plans to bury the entire thing with their child's body in Georgia.

They banked that no one among their family and friends would believe the perfect American dream family, the esteemed Ramseys, could have done such a terrible thing to their own child.

But the evidence, in spite of their pals Hunter and Lacy, proved otherwise. The deeper they dug, the deeper that pit of guilt became.

Sorry I went on and on. But you got me going, UKGuy, and you know better than to get me going!

I'm blaming YOU!

:winkkiss:

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Why, thank you, sir. :blushing:



Very good point. Since I fully believe she had a dead or dying child on her hands during the darkest hours of her life after they got home that night, I have no problem answering this for myself.



Well, Patsy said herself--in one of her interviews or perhaps her book, sorry can't remember which right this moment--that she was taught by her mother to do her hair and makeup religiously. She was a beauty queen, after all, and had a level of expectation to meet as the wife of AG CEO John Ramsey--something she took great pride in, as well, if you read her '95 & '96 Christmas letters. After cancer and reaching middle age, I would think she was even more meticulous about that.



Here we part ways: all we have is the word of the Ramseys that JR was in his undies, etc., during that early "wake-up" period of dressing and "finding" the ransom note. When JR opened the door to the police, both Ramseys were fully dressed. Sorry, I'm not giving JR a pass when so much of our perception of him is based on what the Ramseys SAID, and they alone constructed the story of that morning of activity for us--which they changed countless times, I might add.

One thing that happened immediately after JR "FOUND THE BODY", as opposed to simply leading Fleet to it later that day, was he called the pilot who had been up early that morning getting the plane ready to fly to Charlevoix and with whom he'd had a private conversation not long after the 911 call as JR stated himself in his first book. Since again JR is planning a flight away from Boulder, according to his own recounting, while his child's body lies in his living room, I have no doubt he at least knew what happened to her and wanted to protect himself and his wife and son from LE, not a foreign faction.

The reason I believe that is because JR had the opportunity to call his parent company, Lockheed-Martin, to set in motion their international security protocol in the event of any kidnapping involving their executives. If my family's lives were on the line, I'd have made that call before I even called 911, but certainly after finding my child murdered by a stranger who wrote a note and dropped it and the body in my house while I slept.

In other words, instead of bringing WORLD-CLASS security to protect his family from these monsters who have proven capable of committing a terrible atrocity right under their noses, JR sets out to fly off "to Atlanta" in his little private plane with only his pilot. Ha. I don't think so. They could have been flying out of the country for all we know. Again, whatever the Ramseys said will always be suspect because we know how often they lied to LE and the public.

Add in that all the Ramsey's legal actions that afternoon and during the following days are set in motion to mount a defense: first for JR, and by all accounts, including the Ramsey's, he expected to be the prime suspect right off; then a few days later for Patsy, as defense lawyers know if/when either might be arrested their interests would have to be defended separately.

No one disputes that by the time the body was "found" and the Ramseys managed a getaway to their friends' home without going to the BPD (which they absolutely should have done--even Lou Smit said that much), they already had lawyers in action. Remember JR's account in LOI of "someone" inside the investigation calling his lawyer that morning to warn them they were already suspects? That was before the body was found.

And finally, why would they expect JR to be the prime suspect who needed to be protected right off the bat and not Patsy or Burke? Neither JR nor Patsy knew how the child had even died, according to their own stories. Who else knew? Their lawyers? How did they know? Again, the autopsy wasn't even conducted until the next morning, but the Ramseys were already lawyered up--TO PROTECT JR.

My opinion is they ALREADY knew about the sexual abuse component, which they couldn't have known before autopsy results were in, much less before the autopsy was even conducted, unless they were BOTH involved in what happened that night. That's why JR felt he would be the prime suspect immediately: as an adult male, it was inescapable. The complexities of the sexual abuse, the manner of death, and the ransom note certainly imply no child not yet 10 could have done all this.

JR knew as well as Patsy, IMO.

And JR and Patsy both were actors in the various stages of this sexual abuse, death, and cover-up.

Burke will always be on the table for some part of the acts against JonBenet, in my mind. I do feel sorry for him, though, as he was a child and but for the bad actions and choices of his parents, few would even remember his name by now, IMO.

[Continued in next post.]

My question is why did John go missing then was seen sitting at the table head in hands. He was fine before that,said to be smiling and joking, then a sudden change. Linda Arnt said she was concerned about his mental state and gave him the task of rechecking the house. I think John had time to read the ransom letter and saw Pasty all over it and went to see where Pasty hid her. Linda sending him to recheck gave him a chance to find her before tracking dogs were brought in?

John told Stewart Long that he found JonBenet earlier that morning. John them rerouted and brought to Boulder during a kidnapping. Why would you bring your other kids there when you're trying to get the hell out of it? Wouldn't you want them as far away from the place their sister was taken for their own safety? He had more than enough time to have them taken to a safe place with guards in Atlanta, but he didn't.

 

[KoldKase]

My question is why did John go missing then was seen sitting at the table head in hands. Linda Arnt said she was concerned about his mental state and gave him the task of rechecking the house. I think John had time to read the ransom letter and saw Pasty all over it and went to see where Pasty hid her.

John told Stewart Long that he found JonBenet earlier that morning. John had them rerouted and brought to Boulder during a kidnapping. Why would you bring your other kids there when you're trying to get the hell out of it? Wouldn't you want them as far away from the place their sister was taken for their own safety?

Maybe. John and Patsy claimed John read the ransom note on his knees before LE got there, though. Patsy said John told her to call LE, though that story from them differs at times. If John had the ransom note and saw Patsy all over it, why didn't he search the house himself first? Was there some reason he might think Patsy actually WOULD write such a thing without even questioning what the hey was going on before calling 911?

See, this is the HUGE problem with their whole "We saw the ransom note and jumped on the phone to call 911, we were so FRANTIC!" story. These allegedly normal parents wake to such a note and instead of thinking of a dozen different things that could have happened which would be far more reasonable to check out FIRST, like "The kids are playing pranks, let's see what Burke knows and boy, are these kids going to get it!" and searching the house thoroughly, go immediately into "PANIC! KIDNAPPERS! CALL 911!! AND IGNORE THAT THEY SAY THEY'LL KILL HER AND WE HAVE THE EXPERTISE OF AN UNPARALLELED, PROFESSIONAL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY TEAM SPECIALIZING IN KIDNAPPING EVENTS AT OUR FINGERTIPS WITH LOCKHEED-MARTIN!"

From locking all the doors to not locking doors or windows, to checking on Burke but not "waking" him to even ask one question, to not even actually reading the full note BEFORE calling 911--it's not logical. I don't believe a word of it.

Ultimately we have only the Ramsey's story about what happened that morning, so either/or...this or that...they'll never tell the truth. So we're left to wander through the evidence we have and look for what the Ramseys said actually DOES tell us.

About JAR, Melinda, and her fiance: I've never actually seen any transcript or summary of what JR's pilot, Mike Archuleta, had to say about what JR told him during various phone calls, or when.

JR claimed he called his pilot early to cancel the flight and, I believe, at some point he had Archuleta contact the "big kids" to let them know they were in a crisis and they wouldn't be picking them up in Minnesota. Maybe JR said he also called Archuleta during that "missing" period to discuss the plans for the big kids? Sorry, my mind is fuzzy here.

So that's at least two and maybe three phone calls with his pilot. But really, what was said in those phone calls? We only have JR's story, no recording and no corroboration that I've seen myself, other than what we've been told in the various books. (Oh, to have those PHONE RECORDS!)

I do remember that JAR claimed he went nutz on the airlines at the airport where they were awaiting the Ramsey's private plane until one sold him, his sister Melinda, and her boyfriend seats to Denver pronto. JAR was quite the hothead, from various accounts of his behavior, including his own.

Honestly, I'm hazy on all the accounts of this, but somewhere in the back of my mind I am thinking that the "big kids" were told to fly back to Atlanta but insisted on going to Boulder to be with JR. I may be wrong about that, so I hope some of the sharper minds who remember can set us right on this.

At any rate, when JR wanted to fly out to Atlanta that afternoon, where were the big kids then? Did he know they were en route to Boulder? If so, was he going to wait for them? Or had they already arrived and then went to the home right at the time the Ramseys were loading into vehicles to go to the Fernies?

I guess my point is I'm not sure it was John's idea for the big kids to come to Boulder. It's all detailed in the various accounts, but I just can't remember exactly what the sequence was.

So I guess I'll have to defer to others who have that info at hand? Help? :help:

 

[KoldKase]

Lately Ive been having a hard time with regards to ANY clothing and fiber evidence.

I find it 100% possible that B and JB went down to the (chilly) basement to either play a game of House or perhaps the other old standby, Dr. and patient. For either game, it would be logical for JB to wear her mother's red jacket: She'd wear it as part of her dress-up as the mommy role, AND for extra warmth downstairs in the chilly cellar.

As to what (if any) costume B. would wear for the father or husband role... I dont know. Ive not found a description of JR's woolen israeli shirt, tho i tend to think it was a button-down type. Either way I believe costume for the man's role would be less important to wear.. Why do i think that?
Because Im going with my gut, with my intuition.

Intuitively it's my (strong) belief that the fantasy family role-playing game of that night was all B's conception. He wasnt looking at himself, & didnt need to bolster his own believability. Also, being older, stronger, etc and also possibly being more used to the chilliness down there since he is said to have played in the basement's train room...

So maybe he used his father's shirt, and maybe he didnt. Maybe he got it from the laundry shoot pile, maybe he wore it, maybe he just used it to wipe down his sister's body, Maybe maybe... Lots of possibilities--- Actually TOO many possibilities to ascribe much imp

ortance to those fibers...imo.

JB wearing her mother's holiday jacket to me is a whole lot possible--- and even probable. Therefore imo the fiber evidence holds as much weight as the touch dna.

Now, exactly why i decided to post about this -- and post it on this particular thread -- lol I dont know; its taken forever to get it written and up..!

MODS please feel free to remove/move this if its not appropriate here.

I guess my reasoning entailed removing fiber evidence as we've done with the touch dna, and the if one does so it removes a very large part of the case against Patsy...

I've never seen this theory before, regarding the kids dressing up in their parents' clothing. Very interesting.

However, JR said the basement was in fact hot. The furnace was down there and he claimed Patsy smoked there, as well, so it was not uncommon to have the window open in the winter.

On the other hand, I don't believe much of what the Ramseys ever said was to tell the truth, but to hide it. So whether John said that to give an excuse as to why the window might not be locked, along with that other old standby--JR broke it and climbed into the basement through it in his undies--who really knows what was going on in that basement?

It is an interesting theory, though. Kids do love to play dress-up in adult clothing. And that master bedroom with no door at the top of a wide staircase has always made my skin crawl when it comes to children living in the home.