Patsy's makeup that morning

[ILikeToBendPages]

Maybe. John and Patsy claimed John read the ransom note on his knees before LE got there, though. Patsy said John told her to call LE, though that story from them differs at times. If John had the ransom note and saw Patsy all over it, why didn't he search the house himself first? Was there some reason he might think Patsy actually WOULD write such a thing without even questioning what the hey was going on before calling 911?

See, this is the HUGE problem with their whole "We saw the ransom note and jumped on the phone to call 911, we were so FRANTIC!" story. These allegedly normal parents wake to such a note and instead of thinking of a dozen different things that could have happened which would be far more reasonable to check out FIRST, like "The kids are playing pranks, let's see what Burke knows and boy, are these kids going to get it!" and searching the house thoroughly, go immediately into "PANIC! KIDNAPPERS! CALL 911!! AND IGNORE THAT THEY SAY THEY'LL KILL HER AND WE HAVE THE EXPERTISE OF AN UNPARALLELED, PROFESSIONAL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY TEAM SPECIALIZING IN KIDNAPPING EVENTS AT OUR FINGERTIPS WITH LOCKHEED-MARTIN!"

From locking all the doors to not locking doors or windows, to checking on Burke but not "waking" him to even ask one question, to not even actually reading the full note BEFORE calling 911--it's not logical. I don't believe a word of it.

Ultimately we have only the Ramsey's story about what happened that morning, so either/or...this or that...they'll never tell the truth. So we're left to wander through the evidence we have and look for what the Ramseys said actually DOES tell us.

About JAR, Melinda, and her fiance: I've never actually seen any transcript or summary of what JR's pilot, Mike Archuleta, had to say about what JR told him during various phone calls, or when.

JR claimed he called his pilot early to cancel the flight and, I believe, at some point he had Archuleta contact the "big kids" to let them know they were in a crisis and they wouldn't be picking them up in Minnesota. Maybe JR said he also called Archuleta during that "missing" period to discuss the plans for the big kids? Sorry, my mind is fuzzy here.

So that's at least two and maybe three phone calls with his pilot. But really, what was said in those phone calls? We only have JR's story, no recording and no corroboration that I've seen myself, other than what we've been told in the various books. (Oh, to have those PHONE RECORDS!)

I do remember that JAR claimed he went nutz on the airlines at the airport where they were awaiting the Ramsey's private plane until one sold him, his sister Melinda, and her boyfriend seats to Denver pronto. JAR was quite the hothead, from various accounts of his behavior, including his own.

Honestly, I'm hazy on all the accounts of this, but somewhere in the back of my mind I am thinking that the "big kids" were told to fly back to Atlanta but insisted on going to Boulder to be with JR. I may be wrong about that, so I hope some of the sharper minds who remember can set us right on this.

At any rate, when JR wanted to fly out to Atlanta that afternoon, where were the big kids then? Did he know they were en route to Boulder? If so, was he going to wait for them? Or had they already arrived and then went to the home right at the time the Ramseys were loading into vehicles to go to the Fernies?

I guess my point is I'm not sure it was John's idea for the big kids to come to Boulder. It's all detailed in the various accounts, but I just can't remember exactly what the sequence was.

So I guess I'll have to defer to others who have that info at hand? Help? :help:

IIRC they got to the house around two in the afternoon,and John climbed into the van and told them he had found her earlier that morning. I think that was when Pasty was standing outside the house waiting to go to the Fernies?

IIRC John said he had them rerouted to Boulder.

There were also two account of who took JonBenet back to Atlanta. In Perfect Murder it's on a Delta flight , and in the Bonita papers it's with the Ramseys and a friend of Burke's with John flying a corporate jet.

In John reading the ransom letter, I think it would of been a quick read and maybe not really having a good look at it, but later on he had the chance to read it and he knew it was Pasty's doing.

 

[questfortrue]

[Continuing from your original post.]

. . .
And not until this minute did I realize that of the two, Patsy inserted the paintbrush and wiped the body down, redressing it. Of course she would have, especially if JR was not the sexual abuser. A father would not be inclined to do those things to his little girl's private areas, not if her mother was there. A mother has changed many a diaper, applied salves and explored these areas for medical issues since they were born. Patsy certainly had done as much, as she related in her interviews and book that she'd applied creams; and we know JB had vaginitis from her medical records as well.

Yes, I believe that it was Patsy who did those deeds, even though it may have pained her.. . ."

KK, Just wanted to mention before my response how much I have appreciated your posts both here and on FFJ. You are simply tops in excellent explanations. And, when called upon, the best natural ability to provide a rational rant which gets me standing up and cheering you.

On to my thoughts here on a the paintbrush insertion.

You could be totally right in this. But there were some things about the paintbrush violation which puzzled me. When I read the report from McCann, that it wasn’t just gently inserted but jabbed into her, I realized the perp was in a state of fear/anger. To my mind, it could have been either JR or PR. Yes, PR, if BR were the abuser and she was going for a disguise of the abuse. But maybe also PR, if she had caught JR in a molestation situation. (Tangent here, I personally know of two cases – one a rape by an uncle, and one a molestation by a brother – in which one mother went into anger at the victim, and the other into denial that something even happened.) So PR anger at JB could have been present. However, it occured to me JR may also have been in a state of fear and done the insertion as a disguise.

There’s also this: the garotte staging - that seems more like a JR idea/talent. He was the one who was in the Philipines, where such killing devices were more prevalent. He also read the crime/thriller books. JR’s stamp appears here, moo. He may have been the final stager here. And since the paintbrush was considered to have been used in the final staging, right before her death, it also could have been his idea of concealing something. Then his alleged shirt fiber evidence on the inside of her panties.
IDK. Just not an easy conclusion. all mho.

 

[UKGuy]

[Continuing from your original post.]



I'm with you here; I asked Kolar if he knew of LE ever finding those pink PJ bottoms that matched the top JB had on Christmas morning in the "opening presents" photos and he said he has no knowledge that LE recovered those.

All these years and how many times have we pondered what happened to those pink pj bottoms? I think that's mighty important when you consider the other critical missing items that are related to the crime scene: the duct tape roll (some people believe there was none as it was re-used, but I'm not in that camp); the cord source (again, some believe these were from other objects, like shoestrings or to hang a picture, etc.); the tip end of the paintbrush (which I think was spirited away with the other items to hide the fact that it had her blood on it from being inserted into the vagina); and now the pj bottoms.

So why get rid of the bottoms, as well?

Because they had damning evidence on them, is my thought: yes, semen or blood or some evidence of sexual activities. Remember the blood on the pillowcase on her bed, which Haney implied in the '98 interview (with Patsy) came from JB

Or maybe the bottoms were wet by JB, for that matter, as in Thomas' theory.



It has always been my theory that the Ramseys had JB "asleep" when she got home, put to bed immediately, for the same reason: nothing to explain or get confused or conflicted over when relating the activities involving her before the head blow took her down. Simple: she was asleep, JR carried her to bed, Patsy did the undressing/redressing....

Yes. Patsy did the undressing/redressing--except JonBenet was dead or dying, not sleeping. Stick to the truth as much as possible, to keep from tripping up.

And yet their stories changed and they still got details wrong because theory and reality are often very different. JR said he took her coat and boots off in her room on her bed, but her coat was in the car. Burke said JB walked upstairs to her bed, on her own.

And not until this minute did I realize that of the two, Patsy inserted the paintbrush and wiped the body down, redressing it. Of course she would have, especially if JR was not the sexual abuser. A father would not be inclined to do those things to his little girl's private areas, not if her mother was there. A mother has changed many a diaper, applied salves and explored these areas for medical issues since they were born. Patsy certainly had done as much, as she related in her interviews and book that she'd applied creams; and we know JB had vaginitis from her medical records as well.

Yes, I believe that it was Patsy who did those deeds, even though it may have pained her.

Because no, I don't believe the Ramseys were enjoying the events of that night. At. All.



It just hit me what you meant here: JR decided to shower and change. But that may have been because he sweated a lot and his clothes showed it? We don't really know, since his original clothing never showed up for another year, if then. Kolar revealed some of the clothing the Ramseys turned over eventually appeared to have folds like it had never been worn. I wonder if that's why JR retorted to Levin in Atlanta in August of 2000 "Bull*****!" when told his shirt fibers matched those found on the child's genitals. Maybe he didn't know they'd actually be that consistent since it wasn't his actual shirt he wore that night? Just guessing, of course, but something is very wrong with the clothing "turned over" so long after the murder, which Hunter also had refused to subpoena early in the investigation.



As we're moving through this, it's crossed my mind that maybe Patsy and/or John meant to appear guilty to take the burden off of Burke, if he was involved. Though they had all night to stage this scene, if it began, as I believe, not long after they returned home, I do have trouble imagining they were thinking of so much detail as we often attribute to them. Not that it's not possible, especially since I believe they also made phone calls that informed them at certain points as to what they needed to accomplish before that 911 call. But it is mind-boggling to imagine being that composed under the circumstances.

It's best not to forget, however, that Patsy was an award-winning actor in high school and at the Miss America pageant. Thinking on your feet is critical to that level of performance. She also was a skilled dramatic writer, with her degree in journalism. She was employed in professional advertising when she was young, as well, and she certainly drilled JonBenet for years in performances related to pageantry. A primary skill of a performer is being able to work well under pressure. Patsy spent years training in her high school competitive speech program as a dramatic interpreter. Oh, yeah, she did. Placed second at Nationals, if memory serves. I've seen those students compete and at that level, they're so good they'll make the hair stand up on your neck.

JR was no idiot, either, having snaked his company out from under his 2 co-partners and landing the CEO position in the process. He certainly knew something about lying and deceiving others, as his first wife and ex-mistress could tell. I think we sometimes forget how crafty the Ramseys were because we've been so bombarded with their "we're just an all American family of Southern Christians" propaganda for all these years.



Not to mention, his faux story about how he broke and climbed in that basement window, which isn't even physically possible the way he described it to LE at 4 months and then at a year and a half later.



So we've come to a meeting of the minds on some interesting points here.

Why implicate themselves so obviously? Any fool can see Patsy wrote that note, though many refuse to admit it and/or are in denial about it. JR had to know his actions through his lawyers were going to put him front and center, which is where the sexual assault and staging of the crime put him anyway.

He told Det. Arndt it was an inside job.

The use of JR's bonus amount was obvious.

The length and linguistics of the ransom note couldn't have screamed "RAMSEYS" more if Patsy had signed her name to it.

Ha. I have to think about this.

Because if they meant to implicate themselves all along to relieve Burke of his involvement, banking on their powerful connections with Lockheed, hoping that their lawyers could work with Hunter to destroy the case and keep them from ever being indicted, believing they'd created enough of a smoke screen to fool stupid old detectives at BPD--that is pretty much what happened.

But fate stepped in and "rookie" Steve Thomas and we old beer can collectors screwed it up for them. No wonder they hated Steve so much. They never imaged in a million years one "rogue detective" would blow their cover and the media and the Internet would then foil all their best laid plans to bury the entire thing with their child's body in Georgia.

They banked that no one among their family and friends would believe the perfect American dream family, the esteemed Ramseys, could have done such a terrible thing to their own child.

But the evidence, in spite of their pals Hunter and Lacy, proved otherwise. The deeper they dug, the deeper that pit of guilt became.

Sorry I went on and on. But you got me going, UKGuy, and you know better than to get me going!

I'm blaming YOU!

:winkkiss:

KoldKase,

Sorry I went on and on. But you got me going, UKGuy, and you know better than to get me going!

I understand, I think you are right, its just that many do not understand, the why or wherefor?

I'd like to digress to another arena, the financial actually, and the purpose is to demonstrate the scale of corruption that can happen at the highest level, all in plain public view.

So two offerings, go to your favorite search engine and type in "Jimmy Cayne Helicopter Lift Golf Marijuana"

In 2005, Forbes magazine ranked him 384th among the 400 richest Americans, with an estimated net worth of $900 million.

Or for a short summary:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Cayne

The point being corruption and conspiracy is possible at the highest level in USA Corporations, its how it seems to work in the USofA.

So I see no need to except JR from this kind of game fixing.

Not to mention, his faux story about how he broke and climbed in that basement window, which isn't even physically possible the way he described it to LE at 4 months and then at a year and a half later.

Absolutely, so fake. Personally this is indirect evidence that JR was involved, why? Well consider LHP's remarks:
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

While the press was chasing Hunter and Koby for sound bites, at police headquarters Detectives Jane Harmer and Melissa Hickman were interviewing Linda Hoffmann-Pugh and her husband, Merv, for a third time. The detectives went over the housekeeper’s story again and collected additional blood, hair, and saliva samples. They wanted to know when Linda had last changed JonBenét’s sheets. The Monday before Christmas, she told them. When they told Linda that John Ramsey had said he’d broken the basement widow to enter his home, she found it odd. She said that Ramsey always came in through the garage door, which he opened with a remote-control device, then through a door to the house that was never locked except when Nedra was home alone at night with her grandchildren.


Hoffmann-Pugh was then asked to make a list of everyone she knew who frequented the house and a list of those who had keys. After two hours of intense questioning, she was so upset that for a moment she couldn’t find her own key. Months later, the police asked her about scuff marks they found on the wall below the broken basement window and near John Andrew’s suitcase. Maybe someone had climbed in that night and left the marks. Had she ever seen the marks? No, she told them.

Now PR's account regarding placing JonBenet to bed does not relate anything to do with JonBenet's hair being put up in asymmetric ponytails.

Yet when found in the wine-cellar JonBenet's hair was so styled. So who, why and when?

LHP stated that Patsy did JonBenet's hair, PMPT, hardback, pp 181. This makes sense since I would not expect either JR or BR to bother with asymmetric ponytails?

So we have three options here:

1. Ponytails were styled before the pineapple snack?

2. Ponytails were styled after the pineapple snack?

3. Ponytails were styled after JonBenet was dead?

Your choice will depend on your favorite theory. But it seems inescapable that PR was involved with the staging and death of JonBenet.

JR appears to be a fall guy offering explanations for forensic evidence in the basement, i.e. broken window, suitcase, scuff marks, chair, samsonite suitcase, JonBenet's photographs, possibly some items in the wine-cellar, e.g. barbie-doll?

All possibly suggesting that there was a prior basement staging that, shall we say, JR neutralized by moving stuff around and saying well: I broke the window, Oh and I moved the suitcase down to the basement, and I moved the chair

This does not account for might have taken place when he was missing and unobserved that morning?

So did PR stage JonBenet dead and asaulted in her bed, complete with faux ponytails, or did she do them prior to the pineapple snack?

Answers on a postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, all donations gratefully recieved!


.

 

[KoldKase]

KK, Just wanted to mention before my response how much I have appreciated your posts both here and on FFJ. You are simply tops in excellent explanations. And, when called upon, the best natural ability to provide a rational rant which gets me standing up and cheering you.

On to my thoughts here on a the paintbrush insertion.

You could be totally right in this. But there were some things about the paintbrush violation which puzzled me. When I read the report from McCann, that it wasn’t just gently inserted but jabbed into her, I realized the perp was in a state of fear/anger. To my mind, it could have been either JR or PR. Yes, PR, if BR were the abuser and she was going for a disguise of the abuse. But maybe also PR, if she had caught JR in a molestation situation. (Tangent here, I personally know of two cases – one a rape by an uncle, and one a molestation by a brother – in which one mother went into anger at the victim, and the other into denial that something even happened.) So PR anger at JB could have been present. However, it occured to me JR may also have been in a state of fear and done the insertion as a disguise.

There’s also this: the garotte staging - that seems more like a JR idea/talent. He was the one who was in the Philipines, where such killing devices were more prevalent. He also read the crime/thriller books. JR’s stamp appears here, moo. He may have been the final stager here. And since the paintbrush was considered to have been used in the final staging, right before her death, it also could have been his idea of concealing something. Then his alleged shirt fiber evidence on the inside of her panties.
IDK. Just not an easy conclusion. all mho.

Wow. Can't begin to tell you how much your encouragement means to me.

So thank you for your kind words. Truly.

You're also right about your alternative theories. The sad truth is that there are many ways to interpret most of the evidence in this case, so your points are as likely to be true as my speculation about Patsy. It is very common for sexual abuse victims to be blamed by the family, to be threatened and ostracized if they talk. I think we even have a witness that Patsy was angry at JonBenet, as she told their friend Mrs Archuleta, the pilot's wife, that JonBenet was flirting inappropriately.

I guess the tipping point beyond a reasonable doubt for me--in theory--is it was Patsy's paint brush and her paint tray, along with many of her clothing fibers and her penned faux ransom note.

See, if it were John or Burke, there are so many other items they could have used that might have come to mind for them. Like pencils or scissors or a toy or Swiss knife. Why would either of them think of Patsy's paintbrush from her paint tray?

Of course there are dozens of reasons we can speculate on that, as well: maybe they watched her paint at some point and therefore it came to mind; maybe it was pure serendipity as the dying child was taken to the cellar room and it was right there outside the door.

Yes, so many ways any of it can be explained. But what I believe beyond any doubt is Patsy wrote the note, with her pen on her pad; it was her fibers tied into the garrote and on the duct tape in large numbers; and it was her paintbrush and her paint tray. She lied to LE so many times; she changed her story so many times in so many venues.

Also while we know there was damage to the child's hymen, with an eroded rim, some of it still remained. So whoever used that paintbrush--to cover up the prior sexual abuse, IMO--could have done more damage, if that makes sense.

Of course it doesn't. None of this makes sense. That's why they got away with it.

Since the trail of evidence does lead to Patsy, I see her in every element but one: the head blow. That could have been any of them.

Having said that, personally I find the ligature construction to be an entirely male creation. That's why I can't rule out John or Burke in that device used to strangle the child. But even then, my "third eye" sees Patsy present.

Of course I can be all wrong about it; but until someone who was there tells the truth, I see either two or all three involved at some stage of this terrible injustice committed on a little girl.

And thanks again. You made my day. :seeya:

 

[KoldKase]

KoldKase,

I understand, I think you are right, its just that many do not understand, the why or wherefor?

I'd like to digress to another arena, the financial actually, and the purpose is to demonstrate the scale of corruption that can happen at the highest level, all in plain public view.

So two offerings, go to your favorite search engine and type in "Jimmy Cayne Helicopter Lift Golf Marijuana"



Or for a short summary:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Cayne

The point being corruption and conspiracy is possible at the highest level in USA Corporations, its how it seems to work in the USofA.

So I see no need to except JR from this kind of game fixing.

Thanks for the links. I'll check them out. I never expected to be a conspiracy theorist, but I'm starting to make some psych patients look normal. :scared:

Absolutely, so fake. Personally this is indirect evidence that JR was involved, why? Well consider LHP's remarks:
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

I'm convinced Patsy lied about LHP "helping" to clean up broken glass from that basement window, as well. When Patsy gave long, repetitive, detailed explanations about something, that was her tell: she was lying. She was trying to be convincing.

Just like her story about "John's lost cell phone": on and on and on...pure BS. Did LE ever even check to see if the Ramseys canceled that "lost" cell phone? Did they check phone records for calls on it for the months AFTER the murder? Not that I have ever heard in 17 years. Seems important. Why, that old intruder might have found it and that's the connection, the ONE CALL the Ramseys so desperately wanted...except all the WORLD-CLASS INVESTIGATORS on this case, including and especially the Ramseys', never seemed to even notice something so crucial that could be THE key to find the killer. Guess they really didn't want to know the answer to that, did they?

Or maybe they already knew.

Now PR's account regarding placing JonBenet to bed does not relate anything to do with JonBenet's hair being put up in asymmetric ponytails.

Yet when found in the wine-cellar JonBenet's hair was so styled. So who, why and when?

LHP stated that Patsy did JonBenet's hair, PMPT, hardback, pp 181. This makes sense since I would not expect either JR or BR to bother with asymmetric ponytails?

So we have three options here:

1. Ponytails were styled before the pineapple snack?

2. Ponytails were styled after the pineapple snack?

3. Ponytails were styled after JonBenet was dead?

Your choice will depend on your favorite theory. But it seems inescapable that PR was involved with the staging and death of JonBenet.

Oh, those White party pictures...how much could they tell us if we only could see them? :facepalm:

JR appears to be a fall guy offering explanations for forensic evidence in the basement, i.e. broken window, suitcase, scuff marks, chair, samsonite suitcase, JonBenet's photographs, possibly some items in the wine-cellar, e.g. barbie-doll?

All possibly suggesting that there was a prior basement staging that, shall we say, JR neutralized by moving stuff around and saying well: I broke the window, Oh and I moved the suitcase down to the basement, and I moved the chair

This does not account for might have taken place when he was missing and unobserved that morning?

So did PR stage JonBenet dead and asaulted in her bed, complete with faux ponytails, or did she do them prior to the pineapple snack?

That's an interesting hypothesis.

John wandering around the crime scene unattended--twice, at least: another huge piece of the puzzle somehow bungled while a child lay dead in the basement. Another conspiracy theory to give the side-eye: how Det. Linda Arndt got left awaiting a call from kidnappers, alone with 7 distraught adult civilians and no back-up for hours, not even when she tried to call for it once she saw she couldn't control the situation all by herself. Her weaknesses were bound to surface, setting her up to make huge errors in professional judgment--which played right into the hands of Team Ramsey.

How to believe that could possibly happen when the FBI and a dozen cops and detectives were on the case early that morning? What if that Foreign Faction came back? Even a patrol cop has quick back-up.

Answers on a postcard to the Ramsey Foundation, all donations gratefully recieved!

Don't tempt me. :groucho:

 

[Darlene733510]

If I remember correctly the RN mentioned that JB would be be headed if the R's did not follow the instructions. There was a wire tied into a knot next to JB's body. I believe this was also part of the staging.

 

[Chelly]

respectfully snipped...

Oh, those White party pictures...how much could they tell us if we only could see them? :facepalm:

Agreed!!!!!! Something was odd about the White's Christmas gathering.

And.....Certainly an incident occurred at the Dec. 23 party. Otherwise the R's and their team would gladly have provided photos to the media and public.

 

[questfortrue]

My question is why did John go missing then was seen sitting at the table head in hands. He was fine before that,said to be smiling and joking, then a sudden change. Linda Arnt said she was concerned about his mental state and gave him the task of rechecking the house. I think John had time to read the ransom letter and saw Pasty all over it and went to see where Pasty hid her. Linda sending him to recheck gave him a chance to find her before tracking dogs were brought in?

John told Stewart Long that he found JonBenet earlier that morning. John them rerouted and brought to Boulder during a kidnapping. Why would you bring your other kids there when you're trying to get the hell out of it? Wouldn't you want them as far away from the place their sister was taken for their own safety? He had more than enough time to have them taken to a safe place with guards in Atlanta, but he didn't.

Kolar points out that JR himself said he was in the basement around 7:00-8:00, then again about 10:00 (when he went missing), and finally when he "discovered" JB in the wc at about 1:00. He talks about a chair being in front of/blocking the train room door. However, he did not realize that both FW and Detective French were in the basement early - between 6:00 and 6:30 am and never saw a chair or boxes blocking the entry to the train room. So essentially that whole story about the chair in front of the train room was invented by JR.

Speculative, but maybe when JR went down there around 10:00 (to check the staging?), he noted that rigor mortis was developing and he was beginning to worry about a smell while detectives were in the home. Just a thought. moo

 

[eileenhawkeye]

respectfully snipped...


Agreed!!!!!! Something was odd about the White's Christmas gathering.

And.....Certainly an incident occurred at the Dec. 23 party. Otherwise the R's and their team would gladly have provided photos to the media and public.

There are pictures from the Dec. 23 party on the Internet though...

 

[UKGuy]

respectfully snipped...


Agreed!!!!!! Something was odd about the White's Christmas gathering.

And.....Certainly an incident occurred at the Dec. 23 party. Otherwise the R's and their team would gladly have provided photos to the media and public.

Chelly,
What is striking about the JonBenet case is that the photos are available and not particulary forensically relevant.

Yet BPD decline to release them. If no case can be prosecuted why refuse the publication of evidence, the participants in this case seem to invent rules just for themselves?


.

 

[Venom]

There are pictures from the Dec. 23 party on the Internet though...

May I ask where?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

If I remember correctly the RN mentioned that JB would be be headed if the R's did not follow the instructions. There was a wire tied into a knot next to JB's body. I believe this was also part of the staging.

That's JonBenet's cross necklace. It was a Christmas present from one her aunts. That is what is entangled in the cord along with Pasty's red fibers.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

respectfully snipped...


Agreed!!!!!! Something was odd about the White's Christmas gathering.

And.....Certainly an incident occurred at the Dec. 23 party. Otherwise the R's and their team would gladly have provided photos to the media and public.

Several things happened on December twenty-third. JonBenet and Pasty had a fight over a blue velvet dress. JonBenet gave in and wore it. I can't remember who said she found JonBenet on the steps of the spiral staircase crying, and she said she didn't feel pretty. There are photos of the gingerbread house party.


I think it was the second year the Ramsey's had been to the White's Christmas party. I often wonder if that was when Pasty heard about John's bonus. John bragging about the good year he's had. I don't think she knew before that. Something about that bonus had Pasty pissed. Otherwise why mention it?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

May I ask where?

There are lots of pictures of JBR on this website: http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/

Here are some from 12/23 party:

I believe there was one other picture from that party released...It was Santa McReynolds with all the adults.

 

[midwest mama]

If I remember correctly the RN mentioned that JB would be be headed if the R's did not follow the instructions. There was a wire tied into a knot next to JB's body. I believe this was also part of the staging.

Here are the wire items listed on acandyrose, search warrants of items taken from the home:

26-Dec Wire near body (7KKY) from Search Warrant, pg 9
26-Dec Wire tied in knot (5BAH) from Search Warrant, pg 12

JB's necklace was described on page 3 of the autopsy report: "Also secured around the neck is a gold chain with a single charm in the form of a cross".

 

[questfortrue]

This thread is about Patsy’s makeup and I’ve speculated she might have easily done a “freshen” up vs. a full face scrub and reapply. However, one can’t go by the R’s timelines . IMO, they (except for BR) were up all night. Would PR have kept her jacket on all night? I find that hard to believe; but it seems as though she must have had it on when the cord was obtained and placed around JB. However, JR showered and changed. His clothes evidence, if any, disappeared into the laundry. Was there any blood or JB hairs on his clothes, one might wonder.

As KK noted, there are so many different ways to interpret what evidence we have. And behavior evidence especially is likely to be confusing.

To add to our behavior insights (and mods, move this to another thread if appropriate) I list some behavior patterns of sibling abuse vs. parental abuse. I admit it didn’t really provide the sort of clarity I was hoping for, but maybe it will give someone else here some ideas.

For Sibling abuse, the following from wikipedia.org

• “One child always avoids their sibling
• A child has changes in behavior, sleep patterns, eating habits, or has nightmares
• A child acts out abuse in play
• A child acts out sexually in inappropriate ways
• The children’s roles are rigid: one child is always the aggressor, the other, the victim
• The roughness or violence between siblings is increasing over time”
Other info here: http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/sibabuse.htm#common”
Some other snippets:
• “Bank and Kahn[21] found that most sibling incest fell into one of two categories: "nurturance-oriented incest" and "power-oriented incest". The former is characterized by expressions of affection and love, while the latter is characterized by force and domination.
• Rudd and Herzberger[22] report that brothers who committed incest were more likely to use force than fathers who commit incest (64% vs. 53%). Similarly, Cyr and colleagues[7] found that about 70% of sibling incest involved sexual penetration, substantially higher than other forms of incest.”

For situational abuse by fathers termed regressed sex offending, there is this information: http://www.theravive.com/research/Families-of-Sexual-Abuse:-The-Roles-Each-Member-Plays
“SETTING THE STAGE
The father is attracted to a woman his own age and commits to a relationship because they are in love. The relationship becomes strained and they start to fight and argue more, they don’t communicate effectively any more and both feel unappreciated by each other. When the father comes home from work, the wife doesn’t really respond but his young daughter runs to him and gives him hug and kiss and makes him feel loved and cared for. As the father continues to struggle in his relationship with his wife and feels more and more rejected by his wife, he feels more and more connected with his daughter. The father feels the daughter loves him, and he may believe she is the only one who truly loves him.

This father-daughter relationship may lead to sexual abuse but it is not premeditated by the father to purposefully lead to sexual abuse. Regressed sex offenders do not premeditatively plan for the abuse to happen.

Meanwhile the mother sees the relationship between the father and daughter and becomes resentful to the daughter because, ultimately, she wants to feel loved by her husband, the love he is giving to his daughter. The mother’s relationship becomes strained with the daughter because of the jealousy the mother feels towards the daughter. The mother feels the daughter is taking the love and attention from the father and the mother feels she is being denied this love and attention. “

Draw whatever insight from this info. The only one I can’t get around is the scenario of the victim avoiding the offending sibling. (JB was known to sleep in BR’s room and even PR mentioned that the kids planned to sleep in BR’s room to waken for Christmas at the same time.) Sadly, these descriptions of abuse, again moo, seem like they fit both male R’s.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I wonder if Patsy simply forgot to change her clothes from the Whites' party. If you (or your son or your husband) just killed your daughter, and now you have to figure out what to do about it, I could see it just escaping your mind. I know Patsy isn't the type who would let people see her being no makeup, in her pajamas, but you would think she would at least put on a different outfit.

 

[madeleine]

didn't see this one before

http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=38976721

 

[madeleine]

and is this a real JB crime scene photo?this abrasion doesn't show up in other photos

http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=38976720

and the knot is on the other side

 

[eileenhawkeye]

and is this a real JB crime scene photo?this abrasion doesn't show up in other photos

http://candycane121.webs.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=38976720

and the knot is on the other side

Hmmm...Didn't they show "JonBenet" on the autopsy table during PMPT? Maybe that's where it's from?