GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[Dotta]

I'll be watching closely to see what comes of it.

JMO

RSBM

You and me.

I'll be watching it
Every single day, every word they say
Every bond they break, every step they take
I'll be watching it

Lalala...humming Sting's song

 

[minazoe]

they have a guy in their school, causes so much trouble and is so scary, well they just had to get rid of him...let him be someone
else's problem..right? isn't that the path they took? They are off the hook..let him go do his thing somewhere else..whew!

mOO

 

[tricia]

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[girlhasnoname]

MOO Classes started mid-October, I can't see anyone complaining before a couple of weeks and grades started accumulate.

Sorry Boxer, I don't know why I was thinking classes started in Sept. I believe the murderer got to WSU in August? If he had 13 complaints, as alleged, by November that is a large amount within a short time and a huge red flag to me.

JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

they have a guy in their school, causes so much trouble and is so scary, well they just had to get rid of him...let him be someone
else's problem..right? isn't that the path they took? They are off the hook..let him go do his thing somewhere else..whew!

mOO

Unfortunately it happens a lot in Academia and in Medical fields (I'm sure there are many others, but these I am personally knowledge about as of 10 years ago). Employers don't want the Ethical, HR, $$$$$ problems, they just want the problem gone and will often give the individuals a reference or 'no flag' to future employers. Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

MOO

 

[minazoe]

Unfortunately it happens a lot in Academia and in Medical fields (I'm sure there are many others, but these I am personally knowledge about as of 10 years ago). Employers don't want the Ethical, HR, $$$$$ problems, they just want the problem gone and will often give the individuals a reference or 'no flag' to future employers. Rinse, Lather, Repeat.

MOO

exactly the reason I despise what happened in this case. I know exactly what all went on and it's disgusting, really. mOO

 

[Boxer]

Sorry Boxer, I don't know why I was thinking classes started in Sept. I believe the murderer got to WSU in August? If he had 13 complaints, as alleged, by November that is a large amount within a short time and a huge red flag to me.

JMO

I am wrong - not sure what calendar I was looking at.
Sorry.
Classes started mid August. Complaints probably started coming in mid September when bias started showing in grades.

 

[minazoe]

I am wrong - not sure what calendar I was looking at.
Sorry.
Classes started mid August. Complaints probably started coming in mid September when bias started showing in grades.

the bias in the grades was nothing compared to the harassment, stalking, spooking and eviscerative behavior...mOO

 

[Sundog]

The University I worked at performed Office of Inspector General (OIG) background checks on employees. We were not fingerprinted. However, if a student was in a course involving minor(s), i.e., social work curriculum, they had to go to the Police Drpartment to be fingerprinted.

I’m sure there were other reasons to fingerprint students and/or employees. And I also understand other universities may fingerprint employees.

Education students also require background checks and clearance when they enter their practicum years. And all faculty, staff and students who work in summer camps at universities in most states need these background checks and clearances as well, as they usually include high school students (math camps, engineering campus, etc.). One of our universities had a music charter school on campus that enrolled high school students and all faculty, staff and administrators required background checks and clearances. Also, some universities allow high schools students to take university courses that count as credit before the students get to university while they are still in high school. So there are a lot of reasons why faculty in all disciplines (not just social work and education) are required to get clearances in many states. There are lots of outreach programs to high school students on university campuses.

 

[Sundog]

Real question. Would WSU be liable if protocol indicated they were required to notify LE of a criminal action (I don't know if there was a criminal act specifically or if protocol ever has WSU going to LE, just positing if it did) and they did not notify LE, resulting in no arrest or possibly being put in jail, could it be extrapolated that if he was in jail at the time of the murders, then he could not have committed them?

I acknowledge he could have done it later or to someone else and that he may not have committed anything that would have landed him in jail, but that isn't my question. Since I don't know what all they have for evidence, I'm just wondering if there would be any merit to "If WSU knew aboutj a crime and did not report it to LE, had he actually been in jail on x charges then he could not have done this." As opposed to WSU being liable for his actions off campus (which I would say no).

I don't recall seeing anything in this case that would have required WSU faculty and staff to contact LE, but I do have concerns about University policy requiring that certain behaviors of co-workers or students be reported to the Title IX office, the Office of Civil Rights on campus. All employees at a university receive extensive training on this requirement every new academic year (or when they begin their employment) if not hired at the start of the new academic year) and if they are aware of harassment based on gender or other protected categories of Title IX (federal law) then they are required to report it to the Title IX office. If it is true that the departmental faculty and/or staff arranged to have someone escort female students to their cars after classes, then that is a concern if they did not notify the Title IX office. Also, the issue of grading female students differently than male students in BK's TA class(es) is a Title IX issue and that office should have been notified. Maybe that office was notified. Perhaps the families' lawsuit is based on Title IX issues and will involve the federal OCR involvement. Lots remains to be seen, of course.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

does the University only care about skirting past this and being found free of responsibility in a court?

really? Even if they cannot be found responsible, even they know what wasn't done and you can't take that back, you can't take back the literally bizarre situation and what they KNEW. they KNEW ..and everyone can see this situation was totally out of control at the school..and all of this is a part of BK and part of the history of this massacre.

they have to settle. case or no case. the Optics override the technical aspects of the defenses claims.

mOO

I fail to see bad optics. I'd be disappointed if WSU did settle, actually, because it sends a dangerous message. No one is responsible for anyone else's behavior absent explicit knowledge of a crime to be committed. Once we start punishing organizations for not "predicting" what someone would do, it puts us all in danger of having our actions or words misinterpreted "out of an abundance of caution" for the organization.

They did not know he was going to commit mass murder. They had no way of knowing that. No one knew that, except BK. 100% of the blame lies squarely on his shoulders.

If we want WSU to take blame here, then why not also sue his parents and his sisters? They also must have overlooked red flags, so why aren't they culpable? Why not sue the courts for not locking him up when he stole his sister's cell phone or the people who knew he was "weird"?

The fact is that there are people in this world who are strange and some act the way BK does, but never turn into murderers. We don't hold people or institutions responsible for not predicting murderous acts because it's impossible to do.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

question:

what if the victims were from his campus and not King's Road? what if they were 4 victims from his class?

IMO, it would only change something if one of the victims filed a complaint that wasn't taken seriously before her death. But otherwise, they still can't control what their student does off-campus. On-campus there might be a stronger argument for lack of security or something. But off-campus, especially in a different state? WSU still wouldn't be responsible.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You could very well be right.

They might not even party to it.

I leave that to the Court to hear.

A curious thing, I wonder if any individuals have more direct standing -- individuals who may have been forced into BK's orbit at the university and were impacted by his subpar behaviors. Ones who were likely promised an environment free of harassment, whether in their classrooms, offices and homes, and weren't afforded one.

JMO

No university can promise or guarantee such a thing and I've never seen that in any writing at any place I've ever been. All they can promise is that if something happens, they will follow protocol to ensure everyone is adhering to university rules. And if a crime is committed, then obviously, working with law enforcement. But people not feeling safe because of BK doesn't mean the university failed its students. Absent a crime, it sounds like they did what any university would do -- start a progressive disciplinary plan which led to termination within 3 months.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Real question. Would WSU be liable if protocol indicated they were required to notify LE of a criminal action (I don't know if there was a criminal act specifically or if protocol ever has WSU going to LE, just positing if it did) and they did not notify LE, resulting in no arrest or possibly being put in jail, could it be extrapolated that if he was in jail at the time of the murders, then he could not have committed them?

I acknowledge he could have done it later or to someone else and that he may not have committed anything that would have landed him in jail, but that isn't my question. Since I don't know what all they have for evidence, I'm just wondering if there would be any merit to "If WSU knew about a crime and did not report it to LE, had he actually been in jail on x charges then he could not have done this." As opposed to WSU being liable for his actions off campus (which I would say no).

I don't believe so, unless it was directly related to the murders. Like if he told a professor he was going to murder Kaylee G and that professor didn't do anything about it, then yes, the professor and WSU would be liable. But even if BK said he was going to murder someone random, the university may have had grounds to terminate him, but the law may or may not do anything about it. I'm not sure what conspiracy to commit murder entails. Short of a charge like that (which has to have proof that he is actually conspiring to kill), there's nothing law enforcement could have done, IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Good questions. Unknowable in many ways. Any action had the capacity to act on another action. An object at rest, and all that. Had he been arrested for something, maybe he wouldn't have been able to kill anyone, but might have, upon release. Maybe he'd have gone postal.

He may have done less. He may have done more. He may have done it at a different time entirely.

I truly think this lawsuit is about accountability, as an agent for change.

Is there a better way, in civilized society, to learn what the University did and didn't know and when they did or didn't know it?

This is about scrutiny IMO.

I'll be watching closely to see what comes of it.

JMO

I'm not a fan of law suits that clog up the court system in order to reveal something that has been determined by law should remain confidential (student records). I think it's a manipulation of the court system and not used for the purpose it was intended to. The only government oversight in this case should be through the AG's office as WSU is a state school. So a formal complaint through the AG's office or against the state should have been enough to insure protocol was filed.

MOO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

they have a guy in their school, causes so much trouble and is so scary, well they just had to get rid of him...let him be someone
else's problem..right? isn't that the path they took? They are off the hook..let him go do his thing somewhere else..whew!

mOO

But that's what people are arguing, right? That he should have been fired earlier? That's sending him to be someone else's problem. So I'm confused. Seems the university is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

MOO.

 

[Megnut]

No university can promise or guarantee such a thing and I've never seen that in any writing at any place I've ever been. All they can promise is that if something happens, they will follow protocol to ensure everyone is adhering to university rules. And if a crime is committed, then obviously, working with law enforcement. But people not feeling safe because of BK doesn't mean the university failed its students. Absent a crime, it sounds like they did what any university would do -- start a progressive disciplinary plan which led to termination within 3 months.

This is my point. A lawsuit is the only legal way to dialogue with the school to see what they knew about BK and what they knew about reports and what they about it. The victim families have reason to believe there is more to the story.

If they aren't party to it, it won't move forward.

I recognize people are on both sides of this.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

But that's what people are arguing, right? That he should have been fired earlier? That's sending him to be someone else's problem. So I'm confused. Seems the university is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

MOO.

FWIW Every university/ institution/ business exists in that damned if they do, damned is they don't space. Because humans. And where humans make all kinds of bad decisions despite good corporate policy, there will always be that impossible pull between victims and victimers -- and often, sadly, victimizers have greater protections.

In years past, BKs might have been fired, fir cause, but without procedure. For better or worse.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

the very premise of their academic program is being able to identify criminals, work in crime prevention, forensics, analyzing predators, becoming expert in profiling etc. lol, so much for a college criminology programs. the irony is just astonishing.

 

[Ghostwheel]

But that's what people are arguing, right? That he should have been fired earlier? That's sending him to be someone else's problem. So I'm confused. Seems the university is damned if they do, damned if they don't.

MOO.

If he had been fired for cause and it was not buried that he was fired for cause ( as in it was on his record), then not damned if they did. Not that it could have mattered in anyway, but had WSU fired him (assuming there was a fireable offense), at that point they would have done their due diligence as long as no one wrote a letter of recommendation or someone who might have been required to say he was fired for cause refused to do so.

It seems to me the argument is did BK do anything that would have warranted LE intervention and WSU did not bring in LE. Well, at least that is what I see. Being creepy isn't a crime. Sexual Harassment CAN be a crime if it reaches a certain level. If there was proof that BK was stalking anyone (by complaints sent to WSU) and they did not notify LE, then whoever was being stalked would definitely have a case if they were harmed in any way. Where it gets gray to me is that if he had been arrested by LE due to stalking (if that was an actual thing) and when they issued a search warrant on BKs computer (because they would have) and if there had been anything indicating BK was stalking any of the 4, then might the parents have some standing? Again, I don't know since I have no idea what they are working with.

If the end goal is for Universities to stop burying harassment of students by staff, the lawsuit might be worthy in my eyes. Even if they don't win, if it uncovers something that should not happen (allowing staff or student teachers to harass students and doing nothing about it). If the end goal is to make sure that anything that happens on University grounds that is illegal outside of a University is required to be reported to LE so that the person committing the illegal activities is prosecuted as the law allows, also worthy in my eyes.

For me, having been harassed by a protected teacher and no one doing anything about, it kind of boils down to students who feel threatened may need to stay in a university they feel threatened at so will not speak up more than make a complaint (grant, full scholarship, partial scholarship, their own student teaching job, etc). No one will hold the University's feet to the fire (except often when it is too late). When someone who has no vested interest in staying at the campus has the lawsuit, again even if they don't win, it can expose something inherently wrong in the system. That seems like a generic win.

I'll have to wait and see what they have to work with and what the actual end goal seems to be.