GUILTY PLEA DEAL ACCEPTED - ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #114

[New Penny]

He wasn't transferring to another university. He was moving back in with his parents in PA. And it's rare to see a firing on a background check. Employers are afraid of getting sued.

How about rescinding an offer of employment to begin with? Aren’t that what background checks are for? Employment offers contingent on clean records, etc? Due diligence and all…bringing in a wolf to guard the henhouse.

EDA: MOO

 

[LinasK]

How about rescinding an offer of employment to begin with? Aren’t that what background checks are for? Employment offers contingent on clean records, etc? Due diligence and all…bringing in a wolf to guard the henhouse.

EDA: MOO

He hadn't applied for any job that I know of upon returning to PA. People are looking to armchair quarterback what could have been done to alert society that he was a potential killer, but I don't know that there was anything that could have been done differently, except if the victims had been aware they might have taken more precautions. There's nothing that I see that WSU could have done. Oh, did you mean they rescind their offer of employment? He'd already been working for them for months. They did fire him.

 

[MassGuy]

Have they re-released the document dump with properly redacted photos?

No, and they haven't re-released the court filings they released and then pulled either.

 

[katydid23]

could be they had probable cause with 13 reports .

They fired him, after having mandatory meetings with him, to formally discuss his behaviour.

What else were they expected to do?

What exactly were they supposed to report to the police, BEFORE they actually had the formal meetings with him concerning his behaviour?


The University had to investigate each one of those reports. That takes awhile. Every professor gets complaints that are filed by students. It happens more than we think. If they reported every complaint to the police they would lose many of their employees and not always judiciously. IMO

 

[katydid23]

could be they had probable cause with 13 reports .

About the 'reports" ----https://people.com/bryan-kohberger-complaints-offensive-comments-washington-state-university-11792793

There would be 12 more over the next three months, bringing the total to 13, according to newly unsealed documents and interviews with members of the WSU community obtained by PEOPLE.

• Bryan Kohberger attended Washington State University for a little over three months, and in that time 13 complaints were filed about his behavior
• Almost all were in relation to his "stating of outspoken discriminatory comments which were homophobic, ableist, xenophobic and misogynistic in nature," said one staff member

The documents also contain multiple interviews with some of the women who made these complaints, including a divorced woman who claimed the murderer told her he didn't date "broken women," and a deaf classmate who was asked by Kohberger if "she would be comfortable procreating given the fact she had a disability."

At first, the staff member thought Kohberger might just be socially awkward, but over time she realized the issue was how he spoke to staff and students and his alleged "stating of outspoken discriminatory comments which were homophobic, ableist, xenophobic and misogynistic in nature," according to her interview.


She then added: "He would also stare at people and stand uncomfortably close or 'lean' over women, making them very uncomfortable."

When she invited Kohberger into her office to discuss the complaints, he said his "comments had been misunderstood," according to the interview.


A female student in Kohberger's doctoral program told the ISP he was a misogynist who made her feel "deeply uncomfortable."

Documents show that people complained he often spoke down to women and arrived late to classes taught by female professors — so much so that one group of classmates kept a board tracking each incident, according to interviews.


That same student described Kohberger as a "narcissist" who "never displayed empathy toward another person" and wanted "to be seen as the strongest, smartest, most important person in the room."

[from People Magazine^^^^^]



OK, SO THE MAJORITY OF THE COMPLAINTS WERE ABOUT HIM BEING A JERK:
'... in relation to his "stating of outspoken discriminatory comments which were homophobic, ableist, xenophobic and misogynistic in nature," said one staff member"


So the majority of the complaints were NOT arrestable offences. You cannot go to the police and say he was " homophobic, ableist, xenophobic and misogynistic in nature."



There were a couple of complaints that possibly bordered upon actionable offences. But they would need to be investigated and corroborated.

For Example:
One undergraduate who worked in the criminology department told the ISP that Kohberger would constantly come to her office and force her to speak with him, or physically corner her as she left work.

[not illegal, IIUC]

Kohberger eventually asked her on a date, but she told him that she had a girlfriend.

She said this didn't deter Kohberger, however — and soon, she would get rides home from her boss so she wouldn't have to walk or take the bus alone. This caused at least one person in her life to express concern about "how many precautions she perceived were being taken because of Kohberger."

[ She said it did not deter him---but what exactly did that mean? Did he continue to try and speak to her? They both worked in the criminology dept. So it would not be illegal for him to continue to speak to her, imo. ]

The undergraduate student, who was just 19 at the time, also "recounted an incident in which her neighbor saw someone very close outside her window."
Soon after this, she learned that Kohberger lived nearby, according to her interview.


Even the above ^^^^complaint, is based mostly upon speculation. Her neighbour saw 'someone' 'very close' to her window.

but how does that make BK guilty of anything? It could have been anyone.
And she found out he lived nearby? They both worked at the same University. I'd imagine they both lived in same general area.

I don't see how the police would be interested in the above complaint. He asked her out, she said no, it was awkward at work afterwards, so she went to great lengths to avoid his creepy behaviour.

 

[katydid23]

How about rescinding an offer of employment to begin with? Aren’t that what background checks are for? Employment offers contingent on clean records, etc? Due diligence and all…bringing in a wolf to guard the henhouse.

EDA: MOO

What background checks would have made BK unable to apply for a PHD candidacy? Because of drug use as a teen? Or arrests as a minor?


Should things from one's past as a minor, prevent them from getting a BA, a Masters and then go on to get their PHD?


IMO, that would be really sad. That would mean that once someone made mistakes in their early life, they could never really over come them. Too late, now one cannot get a higher education and better their life?

 

[Miss Poovy]

There are federal laws against that. No place is going to do something like that.

MOO

Yes, background checks may be very comprehensive. At universities or medical centers, they even run a credit report. It’s all very upfront.

What federal law would that be? Employers run all kinds of background checks -credit reports, OIG, etc. They are very upfront about it & the candidate signs they are in agreement. This is also true of financial staff, at most universities or academic medical centers, the candidate is unemployable if there is a bankruptcy or continuous poor credit. Doesn’t matter if your spouse died, medical debt, it’s across the board.

Professors at major universities are very candid with their peers at other universities. I know this from experience

 

[Miss Poovy]

He wasn't transferring to another university. He was moving back in with his parents in PA. And it's rare to see a firing on a background check. Employers are afraid of getting sued.

Well, surely he wasn’t going to be a momma’s boy for the rest of his life? It’s been stated on these threads many times his parents were not financially solid.

If you lie on your application & have a tentative offer & begin employment, yes, you may be immediately terminated. I know of several terminations based on bankruptcy, lying about academic credentials, even at the high school level of not graduating high school, but passed the GED.

Employers run all kinds of background checks -credit reports, OIG, etc. They are very upfront about it & the candidate signs they are in agreement. This is also true of financial staff, at most universities or academic medical centers, the candidate is unemployable if there is a bankruptcy or continuous poor credit. Doesn’t matter if your spouse died, medical debt, it’s across the board.

Professors at major universities are very candid with their peers at other universities. I know this from experience

 

[Miss Poovy]

Yes, background checks may be very comprehensive. At universities or medical centers, they even run a credit report. It’s all very upfront.

 

[Miss Poovy]

How about rescinding an offer of employment to begin with? Aren’t that what background checks are for? Employment offers contingent on clean records, etc? Due diligence and all…bringing in a wolf to guard the henhouse.

EDA: MOO

It’s easier to terminate a PhD student as a TA than as a PhD student. Of course, if terminated, the student loses funding & would have to borrow quite a bit of money for out of state tuition & living expenses.

I really didn’t want to get in the weeds (not directed at you), but usually the graduate student Dean becomes involved with any progressive discipline with a PhD student. The Graduate Student Dean (or designee) signs off on any graduate student employment. At the university I worked at, a TA could be terminated for insubordination. I personally do not understand the grade meeting the professor supervisor had with BK & the students. The TA is under the direction of the professor and the professors workload is supposed to be lightened while at the same time, giving the PhD student experience teaching & a way to provide funding for tuition & expenses.

 

[katydid23]

What federal law would that be? Employers run all kinds of background checks -credit reports, OIG, etc. They are very upfront about it & the candidate signs they are in agreement. This is also true of financial staff, at most universities or academic medical centers, the candidate is unemployable if there is a bankruptcy or continuous poor credit. Doesn’t matter if your spouse died, medical debt, it’s across the board.

Professors at major universities are very candid with their peers at other universities. I know this from experience.

I think we are talking about two different things here.

If we are talking specifically about BK, then I don't understand how a background check would have shown anything.

His past drug usage, etc, was when he was a minor. It would be blocked from a background check. It is illegal to open those records to anyone.

 

[Miss Poovy]

Well, surely he wasn’t going to be a momma’s boy for the rest of his life? It’s been stated on these threads many times his parents were not financially solid.

I think we are talking about two different things here.

If we are talking specifically about BK, then I don't understand how a background check would have shown anything.

His past drug usage, etc, was when he was a minor. It would be blocked from a background check. It is illegal to open those records to anyone.

I didn’t respond to your post? Your minor record is usually not available. I responded to the post about you weren’t likely to be hired based on a background report.

 

[Miss Poovy]

Regarding the “unfair” grading. In Graduate School, a grade of “C” is unacceptable, more than one “C” could lead to termination of your scholarship. A “C” is the lowest passing grade, there is no “D”, the next grade is an “F”. I think it’s obvious, how upsetting it would be to get a lower grade than you perceive you earned. MOO and all that.

 

[GA_Peach]

I have seen several pictures of the crime scene in my Facebok feed. I do not think that these should have been released. What a gut punch to the families of the victims. At some point, the victims and their families deserve dignity and respect. Why do they to see the blood of their loved ones everywhere? I have been a supporter of SG from the beginning, and I understand why he was very angry with ISP. I can't imagine this helps.

 

[Miss Poovy]

I have seen several pictures of the crime scene in my Facebok feed. I do not think that these should have been released. What a gut punch to the families of the victims. At some point, the victims and their families deserve dignity and respect. Why do they to see the blood of their loved ones everywhere? I have been a supporter of SG from the beginning, and I understand why he was very angry with ISP. I can't imagine this helps.

I know most on this board do not agree with me, but for many reasons, I thought the death penalty should have been pursued. It’s never over for the families: crime scene photos, prison requests, it’s all out there & it will probably continue to be a subject to be discussed in many forms. MOO

 

[Tragg]

How about rescinding an offer of employment to begin with? Aren’t that what background checks are for? Employment offers contingent on clean records, etc? Due diligence and all…bringing in a wolf to guard the henhouse.

EDA: MOO

Graduate school placement offers, including TA work and housing, should not be conditioned on "clean records." I my state, it is illegal for an employer to consider criminal records for most positions. The legislation was prompted by concerns that people who have served their time should have opportunities to re-integrate into society and earn our trust, as many, many do. The public doesn't notice because good news is not the attention-grabber that bad news is. It is all too common for the public to react to appalling events by insisting on overly restrictive policies intent on eliminating all risk of a recurrence (as if that were possible).

I served as a volunteer member of a university risk assessment team. We never barred admission or employment to any applicant whose criminal background came to our attention (often through public notoriety). Several of them had served time for murder. We made conscious, well informed judgments and sometimes imposed conditions and close supervision. The university had no subsequent problems with any of the individuals.

The fact is that much as we want to make school a safe place for young people to grow intellectually, learn about themselves and mature, we cannot eliminate all risk.

BK was, in the words of the Goncalves complaint, "a dick." He was arrogant, self-absorbed, entitled, obnoxious, rude, and an outspoken bigot and misogynist. Women were uncomfortable when he was around. This description could apply to many elected officials and tech CEOs today. It is common and a managment problem in the workplace but it does not cross legal lines.

The Goncalves complaint is long on women's reactions to BK, including characterizations of what he said and did, but short on details. There is no allegation that he made unwanted sexual advances, requested sexual favors, or engaged in inappropriate touching or "true threats" as the SCOTUS has defined that term. It isn't clear that his behavior as it was reported to the CCR and academic supervisors was a violation of behavioral standards, let alone a signal that he would commit murder.

The plaintiffs complain that the CCR received many complaints but never spoke to BK, and that no one engaged the threat assessment team. If the complaining women did not want to be identified to BK as a complainant (which is quite common) in an investigation the CCR's hands would have been tied. Policy would have prevented them from conducting an investigation without a complaining witness, as we can see in the Barlow case. The police, who were asked to escort women, were aware of their concerns but they didn't confront BK because they were not evidence of a crime. There was no objective facial basis to engage the risk management team (which is optional, not mandatory), which in any case was unlikely to recommend the drastic consequences the Goncalves lawyers speculate about.

Universities are tasked with the mission of changing lives through education, management and discipline are deemed subject to this priority. Drastic measures like dismissal are a last resort. It is understandable that they first put BK on a performance plan and made sure that he and all his colleagues were aware of the expected standards of behavior through mandatory training.

Hindsight is 20/20, but BK's supervisors didn't have the benefit of hindsight and the court will not be influenced by it. The court, which is required to defer to their management decisions unless they are manifestly unreasonable, will not find a basis for liability under the applicable legal tests.

In response to those who see this as about reform and transparency not money, I'd point out that the only demand is for an award of money damages. The complaint makes no demand for injunctive relief or court supervision of University policies and practices is requested.

 

[Tragg]

I know most on this board do not agree with me, but for many reasons, I thought the death penalty should have been pursued. It’s never over for the families: crime scene photos, prison requests, it’s all out there & it will probably continue to be a subject to be discussed in many forms. MOO

IMO, the death penalty would not put an end to public discussion of BK and his atrocious crime, and interest in the evidence. Nor would it relieve the grief of the families: in my personal experience this can be managed (with help) but it never goes away.

I oppose the death penalty because it has demonstrably killed innocent people in our name ("the people"), because a grossly disproportionate number of those charged, convicted, and sentenced to death are minorities, because there's no evidence that it deters violent crime (In fact murders spike after an execution, because the government has sent a powerful signal that it's OK to kill people who offend), and because the only justification for it is revenge, which is a natural emotion that has no legitimate place in a system seeking justice and upholding moral standards.

All MOO.

 

[Tragg]

I have seen several pictures of the crime scene in my Facebok feed. I do not think that these should have been released. What a gut punch to the families of the victims. At some point, the victims and their families deserve dignity and respect. Why do they to see the blood of their loved ones everywhere? I have been a supporter of SG from the beginning, and I understand why he was very angry with ISP. I can't imagine this helps.

I understand that ISP is under pressure with public records requests, but this release with no effective notice and deficient editing was unmitigated incompetence. The public shares the outrage of the families!

 

[LinasK]

Well, surely he wasn’t going to be a momma’s boy for the rest of his life? It’s been stated on these threads many times his parents were not financially solid.

If you lie on your application & have a tentative offer & begin employment, yes, you may be immediately terminated. I know of several terminations based on bankruptcy, lying about academic credentials, even at the high school level of not graduating high school, but passed the GED.

Employers run all kinds of background checks -credit reports, OIG, etc. They are very upfront about it & the candidate signs they are in agreement. This is also true of financial staff, at most universities or academic medical centers, the candidate is unemployable if there is a bankruptcy or continuous poor credit. Doesn’t matter if your spouse died, medical debt, it’s across the board.

Professors at major universities are very candid with their peers at other universities. I know this from experience

When he went home to PA, I got the impression that his father/parents thought it was just for Christmas break. I don't think they knew at that point that he'd been fired and wasn't going back to school- any school, nor was he going to get a job. LE was already on his radar, he just didn't know it yet.

 

[Miss Poovy]

When he went home to PA, I got the impression that his father/parents thought it was just for Christmas break. I don't think they knew at that point that he'd been fired and wasn't going back to school- any school, nor was he going to get a job. LE was already on his radar, he just didn't know it yet.

I was replying to your post 4068 about background checks if he had been terminated for his behavior, not the killings.