POI: Michael Pak

[Mountain_Kat]

We don't really know when she actually hung up the phone. Our witnesses are JB, MP, and GC. Anything JB or MP reported is extremely self-serving and not to be trusted. GC has told several different versions of his story, including (on Nancy Grace) that he never let her in. I think he never let her in and that's why she didn't stay there. LE may know the exact length of her call in relation to her location but they are not revealing all they know. If you have any links that disprove my comment, I would love to see them. I am not meaning to be snarky.

One thing I find interesting is that GC never mentions Shannan having a jacket or handbag with her. Perhaps my memory is faulty here, but wasn't her jacket found down Anchor Way, and her handbag found in the marsh? :waitasec:

 

[ps149]

Gilbert's driver the night she went missing, Michael Pak of Jersey City, told The Post that he thinks the discovery of Gilbert's purse may finally help close the troubling case.

December 13 2011 NY POST

Why?

What did he think was going to be in the purse to help close the troubling case?

What did the police find in her purse that supports the drowning theory?

Police said they suspect she may have fallen into a hidden drainage ditch and drowned.

Police said the area where Gilbert's remains were found had to be drained.

 

[Justiceforever]

One thing I find interesting is that GC never mentions Shannan having a jacket or handbag with her. Perhaps my memory is faulty here, but wasn't her jacket found down Anchor Way, and her handbag found in the marsh? :waitasec:

Good question.

What is the source of the information that her purse was on Anchor Way. I have heard that but I don't remember ever seeing a link.

I keep remembering that it was reported somewhere that SG changed from ballet slippers to boots in his SUV. I think it was in an interveiw with MP. Did she also change outfits?
What happened to those extra things? Where they still in MPs truck? Did he give them to police?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Okay now this is getting interesting.

ps149 aludes to a second exit out of Oak Beach that MP could have taken.

An exit, only a local would know. MP isn't a local.

Peter Brendt does not believe that MP had enough time to leave Oak Beach through the gated entrance without GC seeing him.

Peter has done some mathematical type equations to show that it was, from Peter's point of view impossible for GC to not have seen MP leave Oak Beach. I have shown calculations proving that it was possible for MP to leave the gate exit prior to GC being their, and /or how GC could have been unaware of MP's leaving.

Correction: I proved, that MP couldn't have left with SG in the car before Coletti was at the gate. MP could have left very well before Coletti was at the gate, but then he also left before SG was seen by BB. Please don't twist the words in my mouth. The whole point is, whether MP could have snatched SG and then left through that gate before GC was there. If MP didn'T snatch SG, he had enough time to leave without being seen by GC.
Remember, Time(BB)>Time(ColettiAtTheGate) ...

The key points in my calculations are the time of BB's 911 call, and the actual time GC arrived at the gate.

Let me recommend a documentary on National Geographic Channel. This is a link to it, on You Tube. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq...isode-1-pay-attention_shortfilms#.USgVIR1f0bE

It will change you mind about what you and others believe they saw.

The point I am trying to make, is something most detectives already know, eyewitnesses provide the worst evidence.

GC is absolutely certain he did not see MP's vehicle leave Oak Beach. This is probably a true statement because.......

MP left before GC arrived at the gate,

GC was distracted, occupied with or focused on some other issue (the tapes, his cell phone, his baldder) when MP left.

MP left by another exit.

Watch the You Tube show first, before you say it was impossible for anybody to not see MP's vehicle leaving.

MOO

I suggest, you watch the video. As pointed out, people see what they are focused on, people are focused on what they are interested in. So, GC, waiting for a police officer, would have noticed MP and his SUV (he had seen them only a short time before at his house, he knew MP was "somehow" involved"). Thus MP was part of exactly the thing, GC was paying attention to exactly at this time ... and as the video points out (or rather the psychologists in the video), we rarely lose things, we pay attention to.
However, once more and to get this finally correct: I believe MP left through that gate before GC arrived. But he hadn't SG in his SUV because she was still later seen by BB.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I have always felt that she figured something out well at the party. Something that maybe JB didn't even know about and scared the crap out of her. That is why she didn't want to leave his house. I've been trying to find more out about it and what maybe it could have been. I think it is no surprise that she was scared for her life and then the other bodys were found. How ever it might have been something very unrelated but something that she was not to find out and feared for her life.

You get me a little bit scratching my head here. Okay, so we have no link, the purse was found at Anchor Way, fine. But lets assume, it was found there. What we know is, that SG was seen by GC and later by BB and that the time between those two sightings indicates, SG was for some minutes crisscrossing in the OB area. Fine, this is a problem for anybody arguing, she was clear, sober and reasonable at the time, but not my problem. So, if she was running around in Oak Beach in a state of drug induced paranoia, maybe even delusional (which is not unknown in connection with drug mixes), then why shouldn't some of her stuff be found in Oak Beach? If, and note, I said "IF", the purse was actually found at Anchor Way, the fact it was found THERE is less significant (we knew already, she was running around in the area), but the fact THAT it was found. We all know, women keep close eyes on their purses. Trained behavior since late childhood in most cases. So if a girl loses her purse, she normally notices it fast and picks it up again. SG, in case the purse was actually at Anchor Way, didn't pick it up. She didn't stop to pick it up. That's an interesting indicator for her mindset at the time.
How you come from that purse to a big dark conspiracy theory of which JB maybe didn't even know (the party was in his house, he was there), remains a mystery to me. Care to elaborate, maybe to speculate, what SG may could have seen there that made her suddenly fearing for her life?

 

[Peter Brendt]

One thing I find interesting is that GC never mentions Shannan having a jacket or handbag with her. Perhaps my memory is faulty here, but wasn't her jacket found down Anchor Way, and her handbag found in the marsh? :waitasec:

Yeah, that sounds more right than purse at Anchor Way and jacket in the marsh.
About GC: Why should he mention it? He would have mentioned it if someone would have asked him, but even then, chances are, he was more focused on what she said than what she was wearing and carrying. I bet though, he would have noticed if she would have worn no clothing.

 

[deedee21]

GC was asked if SG had her jacket with her. He said it was over her shoulder. The same was asked of her purse. He said he did not see it. He said maybe it was under her jacket.

 

[deedee21]

It was reported early on that SG jacket was on the ground.

 

[fred&edna]

GC was asked if SG had her jacket with her. He said it was over her shoulder. The same was asked of her purse. He said he did not see it. He said maybe it was under her jacket.

I don't doubt your post but do you have a link to provide?

 

[deedee21]

I don't doubt your post but do you have a link to provide?

Theres more than one. Read Fieldnotes to an Inquiry. Sorry. Im not able to bring links over. If I recall where else I read this, I will let you know. Its been awhile.

 

[Peter Brendt]

It was reported early on that SG jacket was on the ground.

Referring to this and you post before, didn't remember that one, but it clears things up. Thanks

 

[Peter Brendt]

Just a test ... I seem to have lost my rights to respond to the Lawsuit-threat. Not sure why

 

[mcme]

Just a test ... I seem to have lost my rights to respond to the Lawsuit-threat. Not sure why

You can't respond to a thread that isn't there.

 

[Justiceforever]

You can't respond to a thread that isn't there.

Wow! I was only away for a little while. What happened? Wait...don't answer that.

 

[Peter Brendt]

You can't respond to a thread that isn't there.

Doooh ... you're right!

 

[shadowraiths]

I don't doubt your post but do you have a link to provide?

That comes from the field notes blog ( link )

 

[shadowraiths]

Here's the comment wrt where the jacket was found ( link )

The last known trace of Gilbert was a 911 call from a home at the end of Anchor Way, according to the neighbor briefed on the investigation. The neighbor said Gilbert’s sweater — or perhaps it was the jacket Diaz saw her wearing when she left — was found along that road.​

Eta ~ the purse was found in the marsh. ( link )

 

[WINDSOR]

Peter, be nice and please do not get angry with me.

This timing issue is so critical, and the only point we disagree on is timing

However, once more and to get this finally correct: I believe MP left through that gate before GC arrived. But he hadn't SG in his SUV because she was still later seen by BB

As you, I see the time of BB's 911 call the pivot point. I do not know what time it was for sure. Can anybody enlighten me?

If MP snatched SG on Anchor Way, this would explain how SG's purse or jacket ended up there if it actually did, has that been confirmed? (SG's last communication to the world, I am leaving my purse/jacket so you know I was taken against my will?)

Let us deconstruct the time it would take to immobilize a person, and then drive to the gate, then out of Oak Beach

1) MP catches up to SG on Anchor Way, DD is calling 911; Clock begins ticking

Does MP know martial arts, maybe some choke holds? He was security guy.

"Technical strangles such as Rear naked choke (hadaka-jime) or triangle choke (sankaku-jime) requires much less physical strength and can be executed by a smaller person on a larger assailant."
and
"As in all cases of strangulation, the rapidity of death can be affected by the susceptibility to carotid sinus stimulation. Carotid sinus reflex death is sometimes considered a mechanism of death in cases of strangulation, but it remains highly disputed. The reported time from application to unconsciousness varies from 7–14 seconds if effectively applied to one minute in other cases, with death occurring minutes after unconsciousness.
****Jones, Richard. Asphyxia, Strangulation. www.forensicmed.co.uk. URL last accessed February 26, 2006.


2) If MP abducted SG into his car and subdued her, it would be one minute, but let us triple that time, and say it took three minutes, after BB calls 911.

3) Now it is about a quarter mile, to the gate house from the end of Anchor Way. Averaging a slow 20mph (1759 feet per minute), that would take about a minute. So MP would have arrived at the gate, we would be four minutes cumulatively after BB called 911.

4) The gate has to lift and MP has to drive out, let us allow one minute to raise the gate and one minute to drive off. Using realistic time allowances MP could have gone six minutes after BB placed her 911 call.

5) We know that LE arrived at 6:07AM. How long was GC at the gate?

6) It boils down to just two questions,

What time did BB’s 911 call start and did GC get to the gate house within six minutes of that time?

Peter I agree with you 100% if GC got to the gate house within 6 minutes of BB placing the 911 call. I just do not believe he did.

MOO

 

[jillybean51]

I read some of the "drifters"book online.....surely somebody with all the supposed info that he had,as well as blacking out on the beach should be checked out or followed up on?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Peter, be nice and please do not get angry with me.

This timing issue is so critical, and the only point we disagree on is timing

However, once more and to get this finally correct: I believe MP left through that gate before GC arrived. But he hadn't SG in his SUV because she was still later seen by BB

As you, I see the time of BB's 911 call the pivot point. I do not know what time it was for sure. Can anybody enlighten me?

If MP snatched SG on Anchor Way, this would explain how SG's purse or jacket ended up there if it actually did, has that been confirmed? (SG's last communication to the world, I am leaving my purse/jacket so you know I was taken against my will?)

Let us deconstruct the time it would take to immobilize a person, and then drive to the gate, then out of Oak Beach

1) MP catches up to SG on Anchor Way, DD is calling 911; Clock begins ticking

Does MP know martial arts, maybe some choke holds? He was security guy.

"Technical strangles such as Rear naked choke (hadaka-jime) or triangle choke (sankaku-jime) requires much less physical strength and can be executed by a smaller person on a larger assailant."
and
"As in all cases of strangulation, the rapidity of death can be affected by the susceptibility to carotid sinus stimulation. Carotid sinus reflex death is sometimes considered a mechanism of death in cases of strangulation, but it remains highly disputed. The reported time from application to unconsciousness varies from 7–14 seconds if effectively applied to one minute in other cases, with death occurring minutes after unconsciousness.
****Jones, Richard. Asphyxia, Strangulation. www.forensicmed.co.uk. URL last accessed February 26, 2006.


2) If MP abducted SG into his car and subdued her, it would be one minute, but let us triple that time, and say it took three minutes, after BB calls 911.

3) Now it is about a quarter mile, to the gate house from the end of Anchor Way. Averaging a slow 20mph (1759 feet per minute), that would take about a minute. So MP would have arrived at the gate, we would be four minutes cumulatively after BB called 911.

4) The gate has to lift and MP has to drive out, let us allow one minute to raise the gate and one minute to drive off. Using realistic time allowances MP could have gone six minutes after BB placed her 911 call.

5) We know that LE arrived at 6:07AM. How long was GC at the gate?

6) It boils down to just two questions,

What time did BB’s 911 call start and did GC get to the gate house within six minutes of that time?

Peter I agree with you 100% if GC got to the gate house within 6 minutes of BB placing the 911 call. I just do not believe he did.

MOO

Fine he would have needed about 6 minutes to subdue her. But you left in your "timeline" no room for him to turn his car around and find SG. But if you say only about 5 minutes more for that, and that would be a very short estimation by all means, he would have eleven minutes.
GC on the other hand had how long to walk to the gate? Probably not that much when I look at the map.
And why is it such a miracle, SG's jacket was at Anchor Way? By all means, she was seen there (see Shadowraith post just above yours).

The pivot point is BB's phone call. But it appears, that all the links I have from back then, are 404s now. And where the posts are from back then, when this was all discussed the first time ... I have no idea.
But without the exact time, we can say still something. SG had at least to run that far the BB could see her. That means, she must, for any theory that involves MP snatching her, have reached that point faster than MP. BB didn't say anything about a black SUV hunting down SG the street. I think, it would have been a noteworthy sight if it would have happened. Now, we can guess, SG was faster on her feet than GC. Comparing the distances, GC on the other hand had a shorter way. Means, if SG would have been slower than x*S(Coletti) where S(Coletti) is GC's speed and x the factor how many times SG was faster than Coletti, then the time window closes. Because x includes the difference in walking/running speeds and the difference in distance. GC lives near to the gate. Any time shorter than 10 minutes for him would be a stretch. So,

speed =way/time
speed*time=way

means, if CG needed ten minutes, SG, with her higher speed would (and keep in mind, that is the minimum time) need

10 minutes for double the way if she is two times faster than GC
5 minutes for double the way if she would have been 4 times faster.

So, if she ran and ran straight to where BB saw her ... which would be a pretty good speed, kind of Olympia fast, she could, maybe, reached the position in the five minutes, MP would have needed at least, to turn and find her. So even if MP would have needed not 6 Minutes as you calculated, but only three ... he would have no physical chance to reach the gate before GC. There is simply no way, SG could be seen by BB to leave enough time window for MP to snatch him. And with every minute later than five minutes after she ran away from Coletti's place, the window goes more in the negative. When I include laws of physics, it appears simply impossible. And I haven't even calculated in, that SG probably didn't run straight line.