Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[OEJ]

I do not understand? Has anyone said that these monsters do not need to be locked up and kept away from society? I have not read that, although I admit I have not read everything.

What I am talking about and some others, is the fact that babies are innocents. It is the adults in their lives that affect what happens. Even babies who are sick a lot may end up having issues with attachment.

Why do some of us care? Because we want people to become better parents. We want people to become better human beings.

The research is out there. It has even been listed on here. Some of it cannot be replicated because we are not that cruel and ignorant anymore. Think of the orphanage studies, although we have plenty of info from Romanian orphanages.

I believe the study with Harlow's monkeys still stands. And their have been references to Maslow's theories and the others who are so famous. I cannot remember her name right now, but Margaret Mead's daughter did excellent research on attachment. Her name is Catherine Bateson.

Then there is the recent man who is a scientist and should be a sociopath, but for the love he got. i forget his name, but he did brain scans,.

If we cannot raise healthy children, we might as well call it a day.

I would love to see any people who were raised in loving homes that turned into psycho killers. For every psycho killer, there is a horrible home life. I guarantee 100%, unless they had something like the Unabomber who was kept from his mother while hospitalized.

That may have been able to be repaired, but people did not know at the time how damaging that could be.

Just because we have sympathy for people who were raised in hell does not mean that we feel they should be running loose.

I think that has been said over and over again, but I will say it one more time

I don't think there is a perfect loving situation that meets the perfect needs of any child anywhere. I go along with the "good enough" school of parenting. I don't have enough background on Jodi to say for sure, but I suspect she had issues with being abandoned by her mother over real or imagined slights. I think there was a vulnerability in the child to begin with.

One thing I do find interesting is that her mother managed to NOT be there when Jodi was finding out her sentence. Mom was there every single day but just couldn't make it when it came time for the rubber to hit the road, and it was someone else's fault according to mom.

Irregardless, I have a friend who is a paranoid schizophrenic. When he's florid he sees severed child fingers in his hand, and Satan is standing there taunting him for what he has just done. He truly believes he has just murdered a child. What does he do? He reaches out to his friends and goes up to the hospital and tells them everything. He gets his meds and goes to his regularly scheduled, long-time therapy sessions and is one of the most responsible wonderful people I have ever known.

Jodi, with her personality disorder did nothing to get help as far as I know. She knew what she was doing was wrong and she could have conformed her actions to the law if she wanted to, but she didn't want to. I'm sure she has had some pretty awful feelings in her life, and she certainly has a lot of stinkin' thinkin' going on. I'm sure she had nature and nurture issues but she was stuck with it, and it was hers to solve. (It's HER fog!)

There are sliding fee clinics everywhere. There are psychiatric units in most hospitals. JUST WALK IN THE D*MN DOOR! Most hospitals will take you as a charity case if you are indigent and give you a referral.

 

[human]

OEJ, getting mental health care is one of the most impossible things in the USA.

I think Jodi is responsible for the choices that she makes. We all are, but some of us have an easier time making better choices.

We have been guided by loving parents.

Religion is all about making the right choices. I think all of us choose not to do the right thing a lot. I know I do. I would rather talk about someone like Jodi than to love and forgive her.

But the question to me is how can we be better parents and teachers to our children,

Although people say the research does not support that bad parenting causes issues, I totally disagree with that. Read Magda Gerber, for instance,

Read studies about cortisol and children.

I am proud to say that in my school district if any teacher called a child defective, that teacher would be facing disciplinary action.

There simply is no info in Jodi's home life except that which can be inferred by her actions,

And people seem to have different views on that.

It seems that people on here do not find a mother bathing her teenage son as incredibly horrifying.

 

[Linda7NJ]

OEJ, getting mental health care is one of the most impossible things in the USA.

I think Jodi is responsible for the choices that she makes. We all are, but some of us have an easier time making better choices.

We have been guided by loving parents.

Religion is all about making the right choices. I think all of us choose not to do the right thing a lot. I know I do. I would rather talk about someone like Jodi than to love and forgive her.

But the question to me is how can we be better parents and teachers to our children,

Although people say the research does not support that bad parenting causes issues, I totally disagree with that. Read Magda Gerber, for instance,

Read studies about cortisol and children.

I am proud to say that in my school district if any teacher called a child defective, that teacher would be facing disciplinary action.

There simply is no info in Jodi's home life except that which can be inferred by her actions,

And people seem to have different views on that.

It seems that people on here do not find a mother bathing her teenage son as incredibly horrifying.

If I believed a mother bathed her teenaged son, I'd be outraged. I don't.

Forgive me for not buying what a double murderer is claiming,


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[Linda7NJ]

OEJ, getting mental health care is one of the most impossible things in the USA.

I think Jodi is responsible for the choices that she makes. We all are, but some of us have an easier time making better choices.

We have been guided by loving parents.

Religion is all about making the right choices. I think all of us choose not to do the right thing a lot. I know I do. I would rather talk about someone like Jodi than to love and forgive her.

But the question to me is how can we be better parents and teachers to our children,

Although people say the research does not support that bad parenting causes issues, I totally disagree with that. Read Magda Gerber, for instance,

Read studies about cortisol and children.

I am proud to say that in my school district if any teacher called a child defective, that teacher would be facing disciplinary action.

There simply is no info in Jodi's home life except that which can be inferred by her actions,

And people seem to have different views on that.

It seems that people on here do not find a mother bathing her teenage son as incredibly horrifying.

I think Jodi's parents interviews with detective Flores are very revealing, raw and genuine.


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[OEJ]

OEJ, getting mental health care is one of the most impossible things in the USA.

I think Jodi is responsible for the choices that she makes. We all are, but some of us have an easier time making better choices.

We have been guided by loving parents.

Religion is all about making the right choices. I think all of us choose not to do the right thing a lot. I know I do. I would rather talk about someone like Jodi than to love and forgive her.

But the question to me is how can we be better parents and teachers to our children,

Although people say the research does not support that bad parenting causes issues, I totally disagree with that. Read Magda Gerber, for instance,

Read studies about cortisol and children.

I am proud to say that in my school district if any teacher called a child defective, that teacher would be facing disciplinary action.

There simply is no info in Jodi's home life except that which can be inferred by her actions,

And people seem to have different views on that.

It seems that people on here do not find a mother bathing her teenage son as incredibly horrifying.

I don't think it's okay for mom to be bathing her teenage son. I don't think many people would feel okay about that.

I don't think we can infer much about Jodi's home life by her actions. Certainly Jodi thought it was terrible although that may be her perception and not the reality. I see Jodi as being a retaliatory type offender who can become extremely upset over things real or imagined.

I just don't believe mental health help was inaccessible to her. Personally, I think we're still in our infancy as far as the social sciences go, but there is help, you can get it, even if it isn't perfect, and you can maintain if not get well. My opinion, if course.

 

[OEJ]

I recall this chilling story: YES, he was doted upon and not abused. A rare and troubling story. I would agree that this young man was likely wired wrong.

The only thing which might struck me as parental abuse: His mother was bathing him in the tub as a teenager:

This doting, smothering, spoiling, infantilizing situation is the classic cradle for NPD, I believe.

 

[pinkie60]

A few things I'm left with, diagnosing Jodi, as memories of interviews and testimony are slowly receding from this case.

When Jodi's parents told about the "pot on the roof" when Jodi was 14, her mother said they called the cops and turned her in. If Jodi had been a normal kid, and if the parents had maintained loving boundaries, I'm not sure they would have immediately called LE. It seems to me a lot of behavioral issues, disrespect likely, had been causing chaos for a long time. We don't know whether their inadequate parenting styles or Jodi's defiance/disorder were the cause, or how much weight to give each side of that. MOO.

I'm still struck by Jodi's use of the word "betrayed." She said she felt betrayed by her mom when she was spanked with the spoon. Something tells me she meant that, in her twisted perspective. Then she said she felt the jury betrayed her, iow, did not live up to Jodi's expectations of them, of their believing her. I haven't heard a perp calling the jury's verdict a betrayal before.

Lastly, Jeff MacDonald was another killer who was deemed a narcissistic sociopath. I just thought of him when reading of the Brian Blackwell case here.

i picked up on jodi claiming to be betrayed too. just thought, did she read up about BPD in jail? You never know with her. When she said the spankings became more intense when she was seven, i'm wondering if her behavior got worse then, and mother was driven to her wits end, or it could be that (i have seen this) her mother for some reason just didn't like her and she became a scapegoat. maybe in her little mind she decided to become perfect then she would be loved. so she developed in the manner that everything was ok if she looked perfect, at all costs, and emotions didn't matter. compulsive lying can become a habit too, if you start early to avoid punishment. it's important to talk to kids if they feel good about something or bad and help them feel ok. somehow i get the impression, they didn't have time.

 

[MeeBee]

I don't think it's okay for mom to be bathing her teenage son. I don't think many people would feel okay about that.

I don't think we can infer much about Jodi's home life by her actions. Certainly Jodi thought it was terrible although that may be her perception and not the reality. I see Jodi as being a retaliatory type offender who can become extremely upset over things real or imagined.

I just don't believe mental health help was inaccessible to her. Personally, I think we're still in our infancy as far as the social sciences go, but there is help, you can get it, even if it isn't perfect, and you can maintain if not get well. My opinion, if course.

I feel Jodi's perceptions of a poor home life are skewed. She, as a sociopath, doesn't like rules and doesn't like being forced to conform to them. I mean, just look at the reason she left home to live with Bobby. Her parents tried to ground her for three months. She didn't want to be grounded so she left. The way she tells the story, she makes it sound more awful than the bones of it. She considered this a slight and a horrible thing. But kids get grounded all the time everyday, and if Jodi was a problem child, that explain the long length of time. My younger sister was grounded for a month once.

Just look at her time with Travis. She talks of abuse from emotional to physical but these are obviously skewed versions of reality. Travis never abused her and Jodi probably never perceived him that way until after she was arrested and needed to change her story. The texts were obviously a reaction to a stressor, Jodi had pushed him to his wit's end and he was reacting. Now, she talks of abuse and Travis' meanness. She pushed him there but she needs to be the victim. Any negative reaction to Jodi is a slight to her, whether it's justified or not. It also takes the spotlight off of her actions. She's a classic sociopath.

Jodi knows she was not really abused but someone like her will justify their actions and then feel and believe it so strongly that it becomes their truth. I don't know if it's Jodi's perception that she was abused by her parents or if her mind must twist it into abuse to make her the victim in a situation where she was in the wrong or if she truly sees being grounded and punished as abuse. I am definitely thinking the former but that is just MOO.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I'm aware that the law does not consider a PD form of insanity, a mental defect. I have been addressing the idea--not mine--that a PD is an in-born defect, about which nothing can be done, and, at the same time, that that the person with a PD is fully responsible for his/her choices. There is a conflict there.

And, I was not conflating personality traits with personality disorders. It was your post which compared the genetic component of PDs with the heritability of temperament, eye colour and genetic diseases. Again, I see a problem with comparing sociopathy with inherited eye colour and disease--which nobody asks for, and therefore cannot be blamed for.

Are you saying you think PD's prevent people from making their own decisions?

 

[human]

Are you saying you think PD's prevent people from making their own decisions?

I think Emmi is saying over and over again that if PD is genetic and nothing can be done about it, then why are people willing to fry someone who cannot help what they are?

Just as someone cannot help if they have blue eyes.

I do not think Emmi believes a person is not responsible. She is pointing out the flaw in the thought process of genetics being destiny. Set in stone. Doomed. Born that way.

But, of course, that is MY interpretation of what she is saying.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I think Emmi is saying over and over again that if PD is genetic and nothing can be done about it, then why are people willing to fry someone who cannot help what they are?

Just as someone cannot help if they have blue eyes.

I do not think Emmi believes a person is not responsible. She is pointing out the flaw in the thought process of genetics being destiny. Set in stone. Doomed. Born that way.

But, of course, that is MY interpretation of what she is saying.

Which makes no sense because PD's do not cause people to commit murder. That is absolutely something they can control, as evidenced by the millions of people with PD who do not kill, rape, etc. Pretty simple imo.

 

[SMK]

Are you saying you think PD's prevent people from making their own decisions?

I recall in a University philosophy of counseling course, the Professor saying that, "People who are suffering from mental disorders and complexes are not free." and it makes a great deal of sense.

Is an anorexic free? Someone starving themselves down to 75 pounds and still thinking they want to lose more? In fact, these people's families often get power of attorney on the grounds that they no longer have free will or the powers of reason.

Of course, we might have to revamp the criminal justice system, or throw out the DSM. You cannot have free will and a whole load of disorders, both. Would you hire a babysitter or nanny who was suffering from many personality disorders??? Or would you assume she was fully master of her own volition? I sure would not.

 

[SMK]

Which makes no sense because PD's do not cause people to commit murder. That is absolutely something they can control, as evidenced by the millions of people with PD who do not kill, rape, etc. Pretty simple imo.

They may not kill or rape, but you can be sure they are doing some damage to themselves or others. How is it "a disorder" if you function perfectly fine???? Disordered means malfunctioning.....

 

[SMK]

Are you saying you think PD's prevent people from making their own decisions?

I don't know how Emmi feels, but I would say in many cases, yes. That is why it is so dreadful to be disordered.....

 

[Horace Finklestein]

They may not kill or rape, but you can be sure they are doing some damage to themselves or others. How is it "a disorder" if you function perfectly fine???? Disordered means malfunctioning.....

Reading comprehension? I never said they function perfectly fine...not sure where you're getting that. Simply that committing violence is not a symptom of mental illness and mental illness does cause people to commit violence.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I recall in a University philosophy of counseling course, the Professor saying that, "People who are suffering from mental disorders and complexes are not free." and it makes a great deal of sense.

Is an anorexic free? Someone starving themselves down to 75 pounds and still thinking they want to lose more? In fact, these people's families often get power of attorney on the grounds that they no longer have free will or the powers of reason.

Of course, we might have to revamp the criminal justice system, or throw out the DSM. You cannot have free will and a whole load of disorders, both. Would you hire a babysitter or nanny who was suffering from many personality disorders??? Or would you assume she was fully master of her own volition? I sure would not.

If you can point to a mental illness or PD that causes people to commit violent crimes (there aren't any) you might have something. If I said a person committed murder because they were diabetic it would make no sense. Claiming a person with BPD has no free will to not commit murder (for example) is equally absurd.

A person addicted to alcohol may not be able to control his/her drinking...but we sure have DUI laws right?

 

[SMK]

Reading comprehension? I never said they function perfectly fine...not sure where you're getting that. Simply that committing violence is not a symptom of mental illness and mental illness does cause people to commit violence.

What I am stressing is that disordered people - and I would count myself in with them, in my past - are not free in the sense that non-disordered people are.

"Being of sound mind and body" to me precludes NPD and BPD in many instances.

I think in some cases violence does indeed come from mental illness. In fact, in my family there is a member who becomes dangerous when she is manic.... I have never been violent but I had been irresponsible to a marked degree in the past, when I was on a wrong medication.....I agree it sucks, the idea that humans are not always free and reasonable persons....

 

[Gecko100]

Which makes no sense because PD's do not cause people to commit murder. That is absolutely something they can control, as evidenced by the millions of people with PD who do not kill, rape, etc. Pretty simple imo.

Yes, I agree, a bit too simplified though. It's very either or, and does not suit everyone's beliefs. We are still very much in nature/nurture territory and much greater minds than ours are still debating it.
For me however, I have seen too much of the intergenerational cyclical violence and abuse of children that gives that gives us these adults, not to be swayed by 'scientific/medical model'. Things are just not that black and white, and never will be. Positivism is inherently gender and power biased. That's not my personal opinion, it's well known, and is a part of self-reflexive thinking.
If we move from that position when discussing the 'psychopathology' of JA, it is biased from the beginning. Because 'power' and 'control' will be elemental to your thinking. Under those circumstances, it makes it much easier to determine where such understandings might lead.

 

[Gecko100]

This doting, smothering, spoiling, infantilizing situation is the classic cradle for NPD, I believe.

What if it was neglecting rejecting and encouraging of an 'adult' behaviour from a child?

 

[Gecko100]

If you can point to a mental illness or PD that causes people to commit violent crimes (there aren't any) you might have something. If I said a person committed murder because they were diabetic it would make no sense. Claiming a person with BPD has no free will to not commit murder (for example) is equally absurd.

A person addicted to alcohol may not be able to control his/her drinking...but we sure have DUI laws right?

Yes we do, but we also have a duty as a society to look at what causes alcoholism. People who have no issues with alcohol get caught drinking.
Borderline Personality Disorder is linked with child abuse, who caused it, the child?