Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[2Hip2BSquare]

Emmi: Imo, you are mixing concepts here so perhaps it's better to break it down as such:

First, mental illness is a broad term. The Law does not perceive AXIS II disorders (personality disorders) as insanity--and insanity being the factor to taking the Death Penalty off the table in the case, specifically of JA and others. AXIS I disorders (ex. Schizophrenia) can take the DP off the table.

Now, taking the Law out of play and getting into the discussion here at WS, some posters do not believe that there is a genetic component to mental illness, of which I disagree. I think mental illness can be either inherited or causational. Recent empirical research supports this as well. It is important to understand the etiology of illnesses. Brain scans have shown differences in the brains structure and neurology that seems to be inherited---just like everything else we inherit from our forefathers. Just the facts, simple as that.

Last, to bring into whether or not the Death Penalty is ethical/moral is another can of worms.

Perhaps breaking it down like I did helps?

:seeya:

I'm glad you brought up the axis or cluster A PDs vs the other clusters (B,C) in regards to what is deemed insane and pardoned of death Penalty.

I think what we are trying to figure out with Jodi ultimately is IF her PD/Mood Disorder made her dissociate from reality (which happens with borderlines....) Could this dissociation have progressed into some deeper psychological issue like over ideation and obsession for their perceived caregiver... A Dissociativr state that is so seperate from her prime personality that it acts separately of her conscious mind?

If so, could this mean that we should also include Cluster B mood/PD disorders in with cluster A Identity disorders in terms of forensic proof of insanity?

If one dissociates from reality as Jodi could have being BPD, are they truly 100% responsible or in control of their actions? Or are they able to experience insanity?

Discuss !

 

[Emmi]

I challenge you to show evidence for any mental illness that causes rape, murder, etc. Unvbelievably misinformed post. But that's why there is stigma. Misinformation and fear mongering. These crimes are committed by all kinds of people. There is no illness one develops which causes them to happen.

For example, a person with an addiction may steal to support it, but the addiction does not cause them to steal. Theft is not a symptom of addiction. Critical thinking is key here.

But, Horace--SMK cited examples in the very post you've quoted. Andrea Yates, for example, and the example I gave in the post before hers, about the psychotic man who heard a voice commanding him to kill while he was on a Greyhound bus. Why do these not count as evidence? Sometimes--not often, thank goodness--there is a direct link.

ETA:Of course these types of crimes are committed by all kinds of people, including people free of diagnosable illnesses or disorders. If there is sometimes a direct link between violence and some mental illnesses, it doesn't follow that all violent crime has its roots in mental illness.

 

[lil_buddy]

"Being of sound mind and body" to me precludes NPD and BPD in many instances.

BBM

I found this quote upstream and I found it disturbing.

When dealing with PD's, there is personal responsibility that needs to be addressed in this post. There are many famous & high functioning people with NPD & BPD.

In my own experience, I have been diagnosed with PTSD & BPD. By taking personal responsibility for my own mental health, I worked extremely hard to find psychiatrists & psychologists who were trained with DBT & EMDR therapy. At the beginning, I took medications. If the medications were not working for me, I was quick to self-report that the medications were not right for me.

Through hard work and diligence, shopping around for the best fitting psychiatrists & psychologists - and working at home on Marsha Linehan's DBT workbooks (which are available for free online by the way - or for a nominal fee at Amazon) I improved my life, my health, my happiness.

To make an erroneous, irresponsible and sweeping generalization that NPD & BPD precludes some from being of "sound mind and body" is not only wreckless, it is dangerous to engage is this type of judgement - particularly when taking personal responsibilty and hard work can make great changes.

To those who have or suspect they may have NPD or BPD, there is help. Do your own research on the internet and please do not believe judgemental, sweeping accusations.

Moo.

Wonderful post.

Personal responsibility is a simple concept that, hopefully, cannot be mucked up by those who are constantly searching for ways to excuse their own deplorable behavior.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Okey dokey .. I think I understand the discussion here now, I could be wrong, but here goes..

IMO .. there is a big difference between a PD and a bona fide mental illness .. a mental illness cannot be created, it's bad genetic luck .. you can be mentally ill and still guilty of a crime if the mental illness is not the reason for you committing the crime. A PD is different, personally I believe it's a combination of being born and made, so nature + nurture, you're born with the predisposition and nothing that happens to you changes the course of events in a better direction .. or can in fact make things worse like getting abused etc ..

Anyway .. that's just my opinion ..

 

[Veritas_Vita]

I think that the communication threads are becoming mixed-up and maybe even hopelessly tangled. Because, there is more than one thread of conversation happening here, with many points and counterpoints, and a single post has been built upon many other posts over a couple of days or more.

And some posts are addressing mental health and its relationship to someone like Jodi, or to someone who is bonafide psychotic, or just to crime/violence in general, while others are more generally addressing if, in some instances, a person with a personality disorder truly possesses free will. Opinions were offered, some of them backed up by the opinions of intellectuals and clinicians and links to literature.

There have been some who have said, here, that certain PDs can be in-born, and completely resistant to treatment, and that such people are, and always have been, permanently defective. Many of us launched arguments against that kind of framework, saying that environment/nurture is of greater import than predisposition or "wiring." That's been going back and forth.

The quotation you find offensive and stigmatizing was actually a part of a thread of conversation that was questioning the one-dimensional, limited view of "personal responsibility" as the end-all-and-be-all of addressing mental illness and violence. It was part of a wider dialogue about the problem with locating (most, not all) pathologies solely in the individual, and ignoring family and social pathologies in the process.

JA was totally into self-help. She has a documented history of "Soul-searching", "Self-help", "Spirtual-questing".

Remember she said she found those "low-cost mental health brochures" to give to Travis for his alleged/fake pedophilia issue. Yet, JA never bothered to delve into her own issues?? She had the internet at her fingertips.

Her environmental/heredity factors at this point become nil. She was acutely self-aware.

This monster was so self-asorbed and selfish, yet she chose to NOT take personal responsibility for her mental health. She even chose not to not guilty by reason of insanity defense.

moo

 

[screecher]

nope.
yep. makes sense to me.
She sure seems glad he's dead to me in spite of everything.

Nope.

JA is EVIL. Plain and simple.

No mental illness there.

EVIL

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Dr Stone .. on sexual disorders and serial killers, but of advice on how to deal with a child acting strangely .. basically get some psychiatric help .. I love Dr Stone.

Serial Killers Dr. Michael Stone Casey Bundy Most Evil Night Fright Show Brent Holland - YouTube

Just forgive the hosts constant interruptions (what kids??) .. it's worth it.

 

[lil_buddy]

I challenge you to show evidence for any mental illness that causes rape, murder, etc. Unvbelievably misinformed post. But that's why there is stigma. Misinformation and fear mongering. These crimes are committed by all kinds of people. There is no illness one develops which causes them to happen.

For example, a person with an addiction may steal to support it, but the addiction does not cause them to steal. Theft is not a symptom of addiction. Critical thinking is key here.

Seems like some don't understand that 2 data points are meaningless and that correlation does not imply causality.

We can blame the lack of scientific education.

I wonder why the fact that violent offenses are split 50/50 between people with mental problems & those with out, is ignored? (attaching supporting doc)

Anyway, love your posts!

 

[TorisMom003]

JA was totally into self-help. She has a documented history of "Soul-searching", "Self-help", "Spirtual-questing".

Remember she said she found those "low-cost mental health brochures" to give to Travis for his alleged/fake pedophilia issue. Yet, JA never bothered to delve into her own issues?? She had the internet at her fingertips.

Her environmental/heredity factors at this point become nil. She was acutely self-aware.

This monster was so self-asorbed and selfish, yet she chose to NOT take personal responsibility for her mental health. She even chose not to not guilty by reason of insanity defense.

moo

This is it, completely.

Simple yet straight to the point. As Juan said "It's not her fault". No matter what Jodi does it is never her fault. She is always pushed to react. She is always forced to do things that she wouldn't do normally. Or Jodi would like for all of us to believe that anyway.

There is a clear pattern of Jodi behaving in ways that normal people would not. Jodi believes that she is entitled to do what she wants, when she wants, how she wants. Nothing and no one stands in her way.

Imagine being parents to this individual. Imagine having three other children that you are trying to raise and protect. Imagine having ONE child that is so out of control that you are at your wits end as to how to change things. Imagine being the best parent that you can possibly be and still have that ONE child turn around and brutally kill someone else in cold blood, in premeditated cold blood. Imagine having the world look at you as if you were the cause of this ONE child's crimes. Imagine having some in the world bash you and question you as not only a parent but also as a human being.

I don't envy Jodi's parents at all. I also don't understand how they can continue to stand beside someone that has not only destroyed another human being so brutally, but that has also destroyed anyone that dare speak out against them by words and accusations.

Jodi has the ability to better herself and she chose not to. Jodi believes that there is nothing wrong with her, the problem is with everyone else.

MOO

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

Wonderful post.

Personal responsibility is a simple concept that, hopefully, cannot be mucked up by those who are constantly searching for ways to excuse there own deplorable behavior.

Some BPDs like myself are self aware, but we can't assume ALL BPDs are self aware.


Some BPDs aren't very self aware and on top of that many times suffer from dissociation! Dissociation is commonly associated with BPD. It is an alternate state of consciousness.

So for me to assume other BPDs are as emotionally hearty as me and psychologically as self aware is also not fair to BPD. Someone with BPD may work just as hard as I do to manage the illness, with different results a depending on their emotional heartiness/self awareness.

Either way you cut it, BPD can progress to extreme states of dissociation especially for those with BPD that lack self awareness.

 

[lil_buddy]

Some BPDs like myself are self aware, but we can't assume ALL BPDs are self aware.


Some BPDs aren't very self aware and on top of that many times suffer from dissociation! Dissociation is commonly associated with BPD. It is an alternate state of consciousness.

So for me to assume other BPDs are as emotionally hearty as me and psychologically as self aware is also not fair to BPD. Someone with BPD may work just as hard as I do to manage the illness, with different results a depending on their emotional heartiness/self awareness.

Either way you cut it, BPD can progress to extreme states of dissociation especially for those with BPD that lack self awareness.

Not self aware? Like an amoeba?

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

And IMHO her constant changing of faith/philosophy ... Constant search for answers shows her lack of self awareness. She couldn't seem to feel comfortable enough to identify with any of the groups... Probably because deep down she has no core identity/personality.

She's a very sick and fragmented human being.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

It's as if When she was thrown out of one group she would go on to join another.

Her constantly inability to conform with her peers, in so many different groups, shows that she deep
Down might have some sort of issue conforming to societies rules in general. It leads her to engage in highly ASPD behavior.

Can she not conform bc of some sort of dissociation? Some deep rooted disconnect with reality and how to interact within it?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

And IMHO her constant changing of faith/philosophy ... Constant search for answers shows her lack of self awareness. She couldn't seem to feel comfortable enough to identify with any of the groups... Probably because deep down she has no core identity/personality.

She's a very sick and fragmented human being.

I actually think she was just mirroring the people she latched on to. You know .. I'm just like you see .. we'll be best friends .. in a Single White Female kind of a way.

 

[Emmi]

I agree whole-heartedly with you :seeya:

After being a victim you just 'sense' when someone's wings have been broken as kids. Abused kids aren't arrogant as adults and they often attract abusers when they grow up, only because they don't have any abuser-detectors like others have.

Nothing in JA gives any vibes of her ever being abused. Also abused kids usually feel empathy due to what they suffered themself.

I don't want to bother you with any details, but I survived only because of the kindness of strangers who smiled at me, strangers who didn't even have to be kind to me.

I don't have any hatred towards my parents, only gratitude. I grew up to be a better person when knowing what it feels like to be abused. You don't want to pass on abuse if you are a victim.

It's unrealistic to think that JA never got kindness from anyone, because children can cope if they see even one adult who is kind to them.

JA again... my sensors don't activate when it comes to her. And just because she says she was a victim doesn't mean that she was one. It takes one to know one.

Had she been paralyzed and shaking after the kill and waited there for the police to come, then she would have acted like a true victim.

I hope people with different mental disorders don't compare themself to JA, it takes much more than a mental disorder to commit a crime like she did.

IMO

My bold. That is an astounding statement!

Most children, even children living hellish homes, will at some point experience kindness from an adult somewhere along the way. A smile, a plate of cookies and a glass of milk, a hug, words of encouragement--these are all lovely things, and may impart a sense of hope in a child who is experiencing lovelessness, abuse, neglect, etc. But that is not rescue, that is not safety. That is not consistent, constant care-giving.

I am sincerely glad that you survived because of kindness from strangers. But it's a huge leap to make your experience into an standard for others. It's a standard that, due to its inflexibility, demands that every, single child should be able to cope with whatever garbage is thrown his way, and turn out healthy, so long as some stranger showed kindness.

 

[2Hip2BSquare]

I actually think she was just mirroring the people she latched on to. You know .. I'm just like you see .. we'll be best friends .. in a Single White Female kind of a way.

I agree.

Mirroring is a common symptom of Narcissism (and Psychopathy as well)

It's the narcissists way of pulling their intended target in, by making the partner believe they are so much alike and were made for each other. They make it l, at the beginning, "too good to be true". And it IS too good to be true.

But I still wonder if she is self aware as many narcissists core issue is their lack of self awareness/ realistic self image)

 

[Jane Jetson]

It's as if When she was thrown out of one group she would go on to join another.

Her constantly inability to conform with her peers, in so many different groups, shows that she deep
Down might have some sort of issue conforming to societies rules in general. It leads her to engage in highly ASPD behavior.

Can she not conform bc of some sort of dissociation? Some deep rooted disconnect with reality and how to interact within it?

An interesting question, kind of a "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" conundrum.

Does CKJA's inability to fit in, to be aware of social cues and mores and react appropriately to them, bring about antisocial behaviors? Or does her possibly inborn psychopathology push people away in the first place, and then she has to seek another group that doesn't know how conniving and vicious she can be...

 

[SMK]

"Being of sound mind and body" to me precludes NPD and BPD in many instances.

BBM

I found this quote upstream and I found it disturbing.

When dealing with PD's, there is personal responsibility that needs to be addressed in this post. There are many famous & high functioning people with NPD & BPD.

In my own experience, I have been diagnosed with PTSD & BPD. By taking personal responsibility for my own mental health, I worked extremely hard to find psychiatrists & psychologists who were trained with DBT & EMDR therapy. At the beginning, I took medications. If the medications were not working for me, I was quick to self-report that the medications were not right for me.

Through hard work and diligence, shopping around for the best fitting psychiatrists & psychologists - and working at home on Marsha Linehan's DBT workbooks (which are available for free online by the way - or for a nominal fee at Amazon) I improved my life, my health, my happiness.

To make an erroneous, irresponsible and sweeping generalization that NPD & BPD precludes some from being of "sound mind and body" is not only wreckless, it is dangerous to engage is this type of judgement - particularly when taking personal responsibilty and hard work can make great changes.

To those who have or suspect they may have NPD or BPD, there is help. Do your own research on the internet and please do not believe judgemental, sweeping accusations.

Moo.

I'm sorry I made it sound as though hard work and personal responsibility are meaningless. What I was thinking - and how I ought to have worded my statement - was of undiagnosed and untreated disorders: Admittedly, people are different after self-awareness and changes. My bad, truly sorry.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Her self image is completely unrealistic .. she thinks she's great. She is not.

 

[SMK]

I agree.

Mirroring is a common symptom of Narcissism (and Psychopathy as well)

It's the narcissists way of pulling their intended target in, by making the partner believe they are so much alike and were made for each other. They make it l, at the beginning, "too good to be true". And it IS too good to be true.

But I still wonder if she is self aware as many narcissists core issue is their lack of self awareness/ realistic self image)

My understanding of this "mirroring" - depicted with such profundity and genius in Patricia Highsmith's "The Talented Mr. Ripley" as one great example - is symptom, consequence, and incident of not having a sense of self to begin with (Highsmith attributed this to Ripley's loss of parents to death and bad parental figure in his Aunt)---the N is mirroring as an infant would mirror its mother. Very sad, indeed, tragic, IMO......