Poll: Marlise Munoz Case: Did the judge make the right decision?

[jjenny]

We don't even know if the fetus actually has a heart problem. It was described as a possible problem.
Depending on whether it has the problem, or what the problem actually is, it might be correctable, or not.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

The whole situation is heart breaking. I know if it were me, I would want the baby saved.

 

[jaxibear]

The thing is all those things are developed before the 14 weeks of her gestation. So all those things should have been known before the incident that took her life. They would not be a result of the incident.
Did she know this ahead of time? And chose to keep the pregnancy?? These are the questions that bother me.
Many amazing children are born without limbs. The Brain issues are a different matter but I wonder how severe it is?

I am not in the medical field, but somebody mentioned this syndrome in the other thread. It sounds as is this is a possibility that could have occurred after her aneurysm and could explain abnormal growth after the incident.

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41934/Nav/1/router.asp

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10161049&highlight=band#post10161049 (Post #664)

 

[jjenny]

I am not in the medical field, but somebody mentioned this syndrome in the other thread. It sounds as is this is a possibility that could have occurred after her aneurysm and could explain abnormal growth after the incident.

http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/41934/Nav/1/router.asp

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10161049&highlight=band#post10161049 (Post #664)

That's a possibility that could have resulted in multipe abnormalities.
Cause is unknown, so that could have happened even before mother's collapse.

 

[noZme]

Yes. I support the family & the judgement.

 

[hambirg]

I can't choose yes or no in the poll because of the qualifications.

To me, and MOO, I don't think it should only come down whether the mother is dead. I think the REAL issue should be whether we are protecting the potential life of the fetus or if we (and by we, I guess I really mean the physicians) are prolonging it's death.

I do think, in this case, because of the opinions of the posters that brought their wonderful medical experience (that's a thank you!) that "we" were most likely prolonging it's death. I would have liked to have more evidence supporting that, but it is what it is. I will take the medical professionals word on that.

I think ultimately the judge did the right thing. I'm thankful he didn't get into any of the constitutional arguments. However I do think he based his decision on the condition of the fetus and I wish he would have addressed that. He didn't. He took the easy, arbitrary legal route. It still makes me sad, because I think ultimately Marlise wanted this child. Sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want, and that makes me sad.

ETA. . .I also find the celebration of this decision to be quite offensive. Not saying that is anyone here, but I have seen it. And my reaction is. . .really? A pregnant woman and mother is dead and so is the life of her fetus, that she fully intended to carry to term. There is no happy moment here. The agenda thing is alive and well on both sides. This wasn't about choice. I fully believe that her choice was to carry this child to term. Marlise did not choose for this to happen. But, as we all know, sometimes happens. Life isn't fair or predictable.

 

[Nore]

I can only say what I would want. I'd rather my baby be with me.
A deformed baby to be raised by someone else, well I'd just prefer it with me.
They do not know the sex of the baby. That sounds like a major defect to me.
The last report I read was one given after she had been placed in her husbands care. The family and husband said there would be no autopsy. They dont need one. Her cause of death is blood clot probably blocking vital part . Ultra sound should show it.I know it was in lung.
I feel they did the right thing. They answered her wishes. :seeya:

 

[hambirg]

I can only say what I would want. I'd rather my baby be with me.
A deformed baby to be raised by someone else, well I'd just prefer it with me.
They do not know the sex of the baby. That sounds like a major defect to me.
The last report I read was one given after she had been placed in her husbands care. The family and husband said there would be no autopsy. They dont need one. Her cause of death is blood clot probably blocking vital part . Ultra sound should show it.I know it was in lung.
I feel they did the right thing. They answered her wishes. :seeya:

BBM

Ya see, that's something that really irritates me. Do any of us really think that Marlise's wishes weren't to carry this baby to term? I think her wishes were to carry this baby to term. I do not see any evidence to the contrary.

However, we don't always get what we wish for. Life happens! Infertile woman who are not able to conceive. . .don't get to argue that that violates their rights. All the courts in the land can't make it happen no matter how unfair. Women suffer from miscarriages. It sucks! They're not able to sue someone, anyone, just because reality sucks. And ultimately I am not interested in prolonging anyone's death. For me that would include people with personhood rights and fetuses. This had NOTHING to do with Marlise's wishes, no matter how many want to argue that. IF Marlise had her wishes, she would still be alive and happily preparing for the birth of her second child. She's not.

 

[jjenny]

I can only say what I would want. I'd rather my baby be with me.
A deformed baby to be raised by someone else, well I'd just prefer it with me.
They do not know the sex of the baby. That sounds like a major defect to me.
The last report I read was one given after she had been placed in her husbands care. The family and husband said there would be no autopsy. They dont need one. Her cause of death is blood clot probably blocking vital part . Ultra sound should show it.I know it was in lung.
I feel they did the right thing. They answered her wishes. :seeya:

Baby was female.

 

[hambirg]

Baby was female.

:cry:

Damn! This is so tragic.

My heart bleeds, both for Marlise and Nicole. I hate to sound this way but I have no sympathy for Erick. You want to name this baby now? The same baby that you fought so hard against? Idk, maybe I'm just unfeeling and cold. But don't try to gain sympathy now for a baby you so obviously never wanted. MOO. . .this was about him and his wishes, never about Marlise and her's.

It is MOO that once you are dead, you are dead, and that your spirit is no longer attached to your body. So, IMHO Marlise never gave a fawk what happened to her body. That hang up is left to us living. Just for the record. . hambirg doesn't give a rat's what happens to her body. . .just don't cremate me. I had a BAAAD dream as a teenager and I don't want to be cremated, otherwise, IDGAF!

ETA= maybe I should explain. I have had many relatives and clients that I have watched die. I used to drive clients out of Bailey-Boushay (that is the AIDS hospice in Seattle.) I loved those guys . .and my relatives that have all died from Alzheimer's. Never mind the clients who were on dialysis. I also worked for YEARS with medically fragile high school students. . we lost one a year . . some that I used to sit with and try comfort. . "next time you see the light go for it". . My professional life is riddled with death. I loved each and every one of them! We are all entitled to our spiritual beliefs. I just don't care what happens to my body after death. .no matter if there is some reason to keep me alive for years. I really don't care. However, when I was about 16, I had the most memorable, frightening dream of my life. I dreamt that I awoke during the process of being cremated. Yep, I woke up, became conscience while I was in a crematorium, being burnt to death. Because of that, I don't want to be cremated, even though I think, my dream experience is highly unlikely. For the love of everything holy, don't cremate me!

 

[Minette]

I do agree with the decision, though there is nothing here to celebrate, IMO. Marlise, the families, & the fetus should have put into this position to begin with. When Marlise died at the end of November she should have been allowed to go with dignity, and unborn Nicole with her. Just because medical science *can* do something doesn't it mean it *should* do something; in this case using an artificially animated corpse as an incubator for a non-viable fetus. I find this concept horrifying, grotesque, macabre--I run out of adjectives when I try to describe it.

And it doesn't help the general public's understanding that brain death *is* death when you have two different hospitals engaged in litigation over diametrically opposed actions involving a brain dead person's body being artificially sustained on a ventilator. And it also doesn't help when the dramatic terms 'life support' or 'life sustaining treatment' are used for the process of pushing air into the lungs of a dead person to force the heart to continue beating.

Life *is* precious, the more so because it is so fragile and so easily lost, but IMO it is nothing but arrogance to think we can (or should) always argue with nature.

 

[spamelope]

Thank you, Minette. Beautifully said.

 

[Karmady]

:cry:

Damn! This is so tragic.

My heart bleeds, both for Marlise and Nicole. I hate to sound this way but I have no sympathy for Erick. You want to name this baby now? The same baby that you fought so hard against? Idk, maybe I'm just unfeeling and cold. But don't try to gain sympathy now for a baby you so obviously never wanted. MOO. . .this was about him and his wishes, never about Marlise and her's.

It is MOO that once you are dead, you are dead, and that your spirit is no longer attached to your body. So, IMHO Marlise never gave a fawk what happened to her body. That hang up is left to us living. Just for the record. . hambirg doesn't give a rat's what happens to her body. . .just don't cremate me. I had a BAAAD dream as a teenager and I don't want to be cremated, otherwise, IDGAF!

I have to agree. I've yet to meet a mother who wouldn't do whatever, name it, to save their child if possible. I'm sure they exist, but I don't know them and I'm not one. If you have to create the bride of frankenstein out of me to do it, I'll be begging you to. My son, who is quite young, and too young to know the details, heard about this case because his sister attends parochial school. He said, paraphrasing, everyone knows that the mom would die if the kid could live. jmo

 

[jjenny]

I do agree with the decision, though there is nothing here to celebrate, IMO. Marlise, the families, & the fetus should have put into this position to begin with. When Marlise died at the end of November she should have been allowed to go with dignity, and unborn Nicole with her. Just because medical science *can* do something doesn't it mean it *should* do something; in this case using an artificially animated corpse as an incubator for a non-viable fetus. I find this concept horrifying, grotesque, macabre--I run out of adjectives when I try to describe it.

And it doesn't help the general public's understanding that brain death *is* death when you have two different hospitals engaged in litigation over diametrically opposed actions involving a brain dead person's body being artificially sustained on a ventilator. And it also doesn't help when the dramatic terms 'life support' or 'life sustaining treatment' are used for the process of pushing air into the lungs of a dead person to force the heart to continue beating.

Life *is* precious, the more so because it is so fragile and so easily lost, but IMO it is nothing but arrogance to think we can (or should) always argue with nature.

Fetus never reached an age of potentially becoming viable. Fetus was not incubated with an idea that it was never going to become viable.
Viability is reached at 24 weeks. Fetus was at 22 weeks and 5 days. And I personally don't have any problem whatsoever with "incubating" a fetus. A number of children were saved that way. Mother is dead and doesn't suffer.
Fetus, on the other hand, doesn't have to die.
And mother's organs still can be donated after the delivery. I don't see why fetus has to die just because some might think its grotesque.
A mother stays on life support for several months, delivers an infant, and organs are donated.
What exactly is wrong with that? I think it's great that we are so advanced in medical science that we can actually do that.

 

[fruity]

Yes, I agree with the judge's decision. I believe that this decision should have been made a long time ago.

 

[lagomorph]

I feel sorry for anyone that thinks the husband is not acting in the best interests of his unborn child. A nonviable fetus is not capable of living once it is delivered.

 

[gxm]

Fetus never reached an age of potentially becoming viable. Fetus was not incubated with an idea that it was never going to become viable.
Viability is reached at 24 weeks. Fetus was at 22 weeks and 5 days. And I personally don't have any problem whatsoever with "incubating" a fetus. A number of children were saved that way. Mother is dead and doesn't suffer.
Fetus, on the other hand, doesn't have to die.
And mother's organs still can be donated after the delivery. I don't see why fetus has to die just because some might think its grotesque.
A mother stays on life support for several months, delivers an infant, and organs are donated.
What exactly is wrong with that? I think it's great that we are so advanced in medical science that we can actually do that.

BBM.

Because a woman is not an incubator. She is a human being and she (and her body) should be treated with dignity and respect. If a pregnant woman dies when the fetus is not viable; her body should not be abused in such a despicable and callous manner. I don't think the so-called "pro-life" movement understands how much this case has horrified the average person. And that it has clearly revealed the depths of inhumanity these laws have sprung from.

I hope MM's family sues the hospital for every penny it's worth.

 

[Karmady]

BBM.

Because a woman is not an incubator. She is a human being and she (and her body) should be treated with dignity and respect. If a pregnant woman dies when the fetus is not viable; her body should not be abused in such a despicable and callous manner. I don't think the so-called "pro-life" movement understands how much this case has horrified the average person. And that it has clearly revealed the depths of inhumanity these laws have sprung from.

I hope MM's family sues the hospital for every penny it's worth.

I'm an average person. Not a "so-called 'pro-lifer'" and while the case is horrible, it doesn't horrify me that they tried to bring the baby to viability. Not even close. To say the average person is horrified is a mighty broad brush. jmo

 

[jjenny]

I feel sorry for anyone that thinks the husband is not acting in the best interests of his unborn child. A nonviable fetus is not capable of living once it is delivered.

Viable means able to live outside the womb. Viability is reached at 24 weeks (on average). Until then, every fetus is nonviable. This fetus was at 22 and a half weeks. Nearly every fetus would still be unviable at that gestation period. The fact that the fetus was nonviable at 22 and a half weeks doesn't say anything about its future viability.

 

[jjenny]

BBM.

Because a woman is not an incubator. She is a human being and she (and her body) should be treated with dignity and respect. If a pregnant woman dies when the fetus is not viable; her body should not be abused in such a despicable and callous manner. I don't think the so-called "pro-life" movement understands how much this case has horrified the average person. And that it has clearly revealed the depths of inhumanity these laws have sprung from.

I hope MM's family sues the hospital for every penny it's worth.

I am not sure what you consider an "average" person. Like I said, it doesn't horrify me at the least. Why is allowing a brain dead person to remain on life support to incubate a fetus any more horrifying than taking a heart from a brain dead person and giving it to someone else? Most "average" people don't seem to have a problem with using brain dead persons for body parts. Doctors cut them open and remove varios organs from them. Apparently that's not horrifying. But all of the sudden using a brain deady body to incubate a fetus is horrifying. Organ transplantation and incubation of a fetus have the exact same purpose-saving a life.