Polygraphs

[badhorsie]

I am not happy about its use in deciding what happens to RSOs though. Also, as in the US, I cannot see it being admissible in court. Sociopaths, apparently, are able to over ride the results in some cases

 

[SapphireSteel]

I am not happy about its use in deciding what happens to RSOs though. Also, as in the US, I cannot see it being admissible in court. Sociopaths, apparently, are able to over ride the results in some cases

It is not useable in court even in the States, however it can be a tool for exposing lies in witnesses etc, if not the sociopathic offenders.

People have faith it it, due to the CSI effect, and it could be used to great advantage in separating different witness stories.

No one is saying it will be used in court, but used as an additional tool under controlled circumstances, just like any other investigative technique.

 

[Cappuccino]

Polygraphs are junk science, pure and simple. They are about as accurate as reading a suspect's tea leaves.

 

[saggymoon]

Polygraphs are junk science, pure and simple. They are about as accurate as reading a suspect's tea leaves.

Tea leaves? Why do police use them then?
Next you will be slagging off the cadaver dog just like kate and gerry did with their own JUNK science about their capabilities and outright lies

Gerry......the dogs are incredibly unreliable, 2008
2011 gerry says it was us that requested the dogs LOL

 

[SapphireSteel]

Polygraphs are junk science, pure and simple. They are about as accurate as reading a suspect's tea leaves.

Like Kate McCanns friends "visions"...


Maddy's mother photographed boat she believes snatched girl Sunday Express
Kate McCann took her friend's vision seriously
By James Murray
Saturday August 8, 2009

KATE McCANN went to see a boat she believes was used in the abduction of their *daughter, the Sunday Express can reveal today. Just a few days after Madeleine was snatched from the family's holiday apartment, a family friend had a "strong vision" that the child was on a boat moored in a nearby marina.

Kate went to Lagos marina, a few miles along the coast from Praia da Luz where her daughter vanished on May 3, 2007, and photographed the boat and the man on board, a hand-written note in police files reveals.

The note, headed "information from the family" and apparently from an officer with the Leicestershire Police as it was written on the force's notepaper, reads: "I spoke to Kate McCann on Tuesday 8th May 2007.

"She told me that a friend of her aunt and uncle had a friend that had a strong vision that Madeleine was on a boat with a man in the marina in Lagos."

It reveals that the "person" arrived in Portugal and spoke to Kate, adding: "They have visited the marina and identified the boat."

The officer spoke to a colleague who made some enquiries about the cruiser, which was registered to a Canadian national. Enquiries were also made on the police national computer.

The note goes on: "I spoke with Kate today and she has given me *photographs of the boat.

"She has also given me photograph of a man who had been on the boat.

"This is not the man that the woman saw in her vision. This matter is very important to her and she is very pleased that we are making enqs (enquiries) into the matter."

Whether the astonishing enquiries made by Kate herself led anywhere is not clear but the episode shows how seriously she took the suggestion that her daughter was abducted by sea.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view...-photographed-boat-she-believes-snatched-girl

 

[Cappuccino]

The police in America use polygraphs as an interrogation tool. The police in my country don't use them at all.

 

[SapphireSteel]

If you are in Britain they're about to start.

 

[Cappuccino]

I'm not in Britain. And if the British police are about to start using polygraphs, that will be an embarrassing step backwards for British LE, just like the last few things they inherited from America.

That crack psychologist from the States who profiled the Rachel Nickell murder, for example, and led to tunnel vision about Colin Stagg...not to mention all that daycare Satanic abuse nonsense which led to the Orkney Island and Norfolk scandals.

 

[brit1981]

I'm not in Britain. And if the British police are about to start using polygraphs, that will be an embarrassing step backwards for British LE, just like the last few things they inherited from America.

That crack psychologist from the States who profiled the Rachel Nickell murder, for example, and led to tunnel vision about Colin Stagg...not to mention all that daycare Satanic abuse nonsense which led to the Orkney Island and Norfolk scandals.

I agree, I do not think they will take off in Britain. They cannot be used in courts, and it is the crown prosecution service who decide if a case can proceed to court not the police, the police just charge people. If the police had to rely on a use of a polygraph to charge someone, then there is no way the CPS will allow the case to proceed to court. Why allow a case to proceed on the basis of something that cannot be used in evidence?
people also have the right to silence in the UK, so they cannot be forced to undergo a polygraph. Juries can in cases decide that silence is a sign of guilt, but the police are not allowed to do this whilst charging people.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I agree, I do not think they will take off in Britain. They cannot be used in courts, and it is the crown prosecution service who decide if a case can proceed to court not the police, the police just charge people. If the police had to rely on a use of a polygraph to charge someone, then there is no way the CPS will allow the case to proceed to court. Why allow a case to proceed on the basis of something that cannot be used in evidence?
people also have the right to silence in the UK, so they cannot be forced to undergo a polygraph. Juries can in cases decide that silence is a sign of guilt, but the police are not allowed to do this whilst charging people.

No one is suggesting it become a routine part of any investigation.

Senior police officers recommended it be trialled, with voluntary participation from individual police stations. No doubt they will all be collecting data on and analysing its usefulness and veracity before making any decision as to the regular inclusion of this technique within the British police force.

 

[badhorsie]

Here we go

Downing Street is pressing for the introduction of mandatory polygraph testing, which monitors heart rate, brain activity and blood pressure, across England and Wales. The tests would apply to the 750 most serious sex offenders currently out on licence. A Downing Street source said two pilot programmes in the East and West Midlands probation regions between April 2009 and October 2011 found that mandatory lie detector tests prompted sex offenders to:

• Be more honest with their offender managers. A No 10 source said they provided probation staff with more information about the potential risks they pose.

• Make twice as many disclosures to probation staff, such as admitting that they had contacted a victim.

• Admit the tests helped them manage their own behaviour more effectively.

 

[brit1981]

yes, I was reading about this today. But it is only going to be used for convicted sex offenders on license not for criminal investigations or in trials. I would not be surprised if it was eventually ruled illegal to make people undergo them as people have a right to silence, but that would take quite a while. However, saying that, I am not sure if they do have the right to silence if they are not being questioned as part of a criminal investigation. It certainly would be illegal to require people took them as part of a criminal investigation.
I hope they do not start relying on them, if a sex offender wants to get around it they can just take an anti-anxiety tablet.

 

[badhorsie]

It isn't as simple as that Brit.

Interesting link

 

[brit1981]

Thats an interesting an article, but I notice it is disagreeing with other articles (ah the joys of b@@ching academics). I wonder if the Uk will do a lot more studies on it now.

But regardless I do not think we should be releasing sex offenders on the basis of them pasing a polygraph, the first port of call shoudl always be the experts who deal directly with the offenders. I remember Dunblane - a police woman had interviewed Hamilton and said she did nto think he was suitable for a gun license, but she was overruled, because their computer indicated he woudl be fine (no previous convictions etc). It would be awful to hear a paedophile was able to rape a child because he passed a polygraph.

 

[badhorsie]

I totally agree Brit

 

[SapphireSteel]

I will bet my house that the McCanns will NEVER take a voluntary lie detector test, in any forum, anywhere, ever, no matter how inaccurate/accurate they may be.

:moo:

 

[brit1981]

well as in the Uk they are generally seen as something that people who go on chav chat shows do (you know the type where people take them to prove they did not sleep with their brother in law on his wedding day etc) it would be very odd if they suddenly suggested taking one. yes they are beginning to use them for sex offenders, but only for those who are convicted sex offenders they are not being used to gather evidence of a crime.
If the mccanns suddenly announced they were to take a polygraph it would smack of cheap chat sshows to people in the UK. The whole question of why they did not take a polygraph is another demonstration of people putting their own cultural norms onto another country. Its just not something that woudl even be thought of in the UK.

 

[SapphireSteel]

well as in the Uk they are generally seen as something that people who go on chav chat shows do (you know the type where people take them to prove they did not sleep with their brother in law on his wedding day etc) it would be very odd if they suddenly suggested taking one. yes they are beginning to use them for sex offenders, but only for those who are convicted sex offenders they are not being used to gather evidence of a crime.
If the mccanns suddenly announced they were to take a polygraph it would smack of cheap chat sshows to people in the UK. The whole question of why they did not take a polygraph is another demonstration of people putting their own cultural norms onto another country. Its just not something that woudl even be thought of in the UK.

On the contrary, they ARE being thought of, by your own admission they are being phased in.

LDT's are controversial but the fact remains that the FBI uses it, and a team of UK homicide detectives has recently recommended the UK starts using it too...and they are.

While not admissable in court (yet) they are an investigative tool like any other and should not be summarily discounted. They have exactly ZERO to do with "cultural norms". The UK adopted the telephone and the automobile from the US pretty quickly didn't it? The technology is speeding along and the LDT's on "chav chat shows" are cheaply made, poorly administered and technologically obsolete compared to the state of the art LDT's being used now.

It is totally irrelevant what popular opinion is in this regard. It's what the UK police think of them that counts, and they are starting to use this technology.

:doh:

 

[brit1981]

On the contrary, they ARE being thought of, by your own admission they are being phased in.

LDT's are controversial but the fact remains that the FBI uses it, and a team of UK homicide detectives has recently recommended the UK starts using it too...and they are.

While not admissable in court (yet) they are an investigative tool like any other and should not be summarily discounted. They have exactly ZERO to do with "cultural norms". The UK adopted the telephone and the automobile from the US pretty quickly didn't it? The technology is speeding along and the LDT's on "chav chat shows" are cheaply made, poorly administered and technologically obsolete compared to the state of the art LDT's being used now.

It is totally irrelevant what popular opinion is in this regard. It's what the UK police think of them that counts, and they are starting to use this technology.

:doh:

The Uk police are not using them, the prohbation services are. They are only trialing them with convicted sex offenders in terms of whether or not they are released and with what restrictions. They are not something that peopel in the Uk woudl think of, so when Americans say why did the mccanns not volunteer to do a polygraph it is because they do nto understand they are just not somethign that woudl eb thought of, it ios like asking why they did nto get three wisemen to decide their guilt.

But to be honest I give it a maximum of two year before they are stopped from being used when someone takes them to the ECHRs, as they violate the right to silence. As it currently stands it would be illegal for them to be used in criminal investigations at least as evidence.

Oh by the way the telephone was not invented by the Americans.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The Uk police are not using them, the prohbation

Not sure what "prohbation" is?

services are. They are only trialing them with convicted sex offenders in terms of whether or not they are released and with what restrictions.

As I said, they are being used/trialled by the UK police.

They are not something that peopel in the Uk woudl think of, so when Americans say why did the mccanns not volunteer to do a polygraph it is because they do nto understand they are just not somethign that woudl eb thought of, it ios like asking why they did nto get three wisemen to decide their guilt.

"People" in the Uk may not be thinking of LDT's, but the Homicide Advisory Board are...they are LE. It doesn't matter a whit what Joe Bloggs down at the pub thinks.

But to be honest I give it a maximum of two year before they are stopped from being used when someone takes them to the ECHRs, as they violate the right to silence. As it currently stands it would be illegal for them to be used in criminal investigations at least as evidence.

So you agree they are being used? Or not? You appear to contradict yourself here.

Oh by the way the telephone was not invented by the Americans

Relevance?

.

A link - again.


Police trialling lie detector tests in Britain

Lie detector tests are being used to help officers decide whether to charge suspects in a groundbreaking scheme by a British police force.

The devices are for the first time being used by detectives for pre-conviction testing in the UK in a trial which could pave the way for their introduction across the country.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-trialling-lie-detector-tests-in-Britain.html

So, unless the Telegraph is "making up lies", they are indeed in use by the British Police.