Pope's speech ignites worldwide controversy/ Islam insulted

[windovervocalcords]

And, I say people who do harm don't deserve to be happy and are not necessarily pursuing happiness.

And, I also say that if you can't rate a person's sin (killing a child vs. gossiping), I don't know what to tell you.

Except that OJ loves you and people like you.

All human beings want to be happy. Even a suicide bomber wants to be happy.

Since we are all alike in at least that one regard, we are equal. We equally desire happiness.

The problem we get into is that what we think will make us happy does not produce lasting happiness and leads to more suffering.

If we have the mistaken view that harming or killing someone else will make us happy this is the cause of suffering and unhappiness.

Similarly, hating anyone, including a murderer or a terrorist does not produce the causes of happiness.

 

[Dark Knight]

We're now taking bets on how long before a mod comes in here and starts handing out warnings and time outs for TOS violations, lol! I think the end is near, for sure.

 

[californiacarrie]

So a few things I want to throw out there:

Someone asked why the "good" Muslims don't try to stop the "bad" ones. Someone else responded that this was partly out of fear. I will also suggest that it is in part that the Qur'an teaches that there is nothing that one can do about people who turn their hearts against God. The Qur'an teaches that God wills each person to walk down which ever path he so chooses for them. In other words, God decided who would be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buhdist, etc. The Qur'an stresses that its followers are to be responsible for themselves and their own actions, and not to give heart to the actions and beliefs of others. The Qur'an teaches that believers should distance themselves from non-believers.

 

[windovervocalcords]

And I, both yours (SCM & WOVC). It frustrates me to see so much ignorance! Thanks for trying at least....even if they don't seem to hear.

What we are all challenged to do in response to ignorance is to keep our calm wits about us and our hearts open. THe nature of ignorance is that we don't know we have ignorance! That is ignorance by definition: not knowing.

This is difficult to do when attacked. Sometimes, it's not possible. We have to just withdraw. As in the case when someone is deliberately trying to provoke or hurt you.

If the person is open to hearing that they are being hurtful, and they are advanced enough to care about others, they can sometimes be stopped.

Other times a stronger intervention/ even force, is necessary.

 

[Karole28]

Ok, once again, I'm out. We're devolving into a shooting match and that's when the conversation stops.

My views are out there, agree or disagree.

I'm not going to get into a "aren't we smarter than those ignorant people" dialogue. Enjoy.

 

[BarnGoddess]

What we are all challenged to do in response to ignorance is to keep our calm wits about us and our hearts open. THe nature of ignorance is that we don't know we have ignorance! That is ignorance by definition: not knowing.

This is difficult to do when attacked. Sometimes, it's not possible. We have to just withdraw. As in the case when someone is deliberately trying to provoke or hurt you.

If the person is open to hearing that they are being hurtful, and they are advanced enough to care about others, they can sometimes be stopped.

Other times a stronger intervention/ even force, is necessary.

First 9/11, then maybe another one this Ramadan, or even many. We will just withdaw and withdraw until all the "infidels" are drowing in the Pacific.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

Just because you see it as a veiled threat, (which I do not) does not mean it is one. Does not mean the author intended anything other than to urge Muslims to respond peacefully to criticism when it occurs.

It is essentially quite kind and worth a read in its entirety.

But if you intend to hold a harsh view of all Muslims, even the ones who are trying to influence their brothers to be peaceful, no matter what they say, then it is your choice.

I don't see it leading to peace, that's all. Peace starts in one's own heart.

And likewise, just because you think it is not a threat doesn't mean it isn't one.

 

[windovervocalcords]

So a few things I want to throw out there:

Someone asked why the "good" Muslims don't try to stop the "bad" ones. Someone else responded that this was partly out of fear. I will also suggest that it is in part that the Qur'an teaches that there is nothing that one can do about people who turn their hearts against God. The Qur'an teaches that God wills each person to walk down which ever path he so chooses for them. In other words, God decided who would be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buhdist, etc. The Qur'an stresses that its followers are to be responsible for themselves and their own actions, and not to give heart to the actions and beliefs of others. The Qur'an teaches that believers should distance themselves from non-believers.

Did you study the Qur'an? How do you know that? Interesting. It makes it impossible for non-muslims to be friendly to muslims if they require a mass movement first, doesn't it?

 

[southcitymom]

<< Human beings are connected>>

We most certainly are!

When we kill someone else, we are ultimately killing oursleves.

Absolutely!

 

[californiacarrie]

Did you study the Qur'an? How do you know that? Interesting. It makes it impossible for non-muslims to be friendly to muslims if they require a mass movement first, doesn't it?

Yes, I am currently studing the book. I don't quite see it like you do, although I suppose you have a point. It's not about being friendly, persay, it's more about just letting others with different beliefs be. Unfortunately though, there are several other passages within the book which contradict this...

 

[windovervocalcords]

Yes, I am currently studing the book. I don't quite see it like you do, although I suppose you have a point. It's not about being friendly, persay, it's more about just letting others with different beliefs be. Unfortunately though, there are several other passages within the book which contradict this...

Look forward to hearing more about it. I am no expert on Muslims or Islam.

My interest is in what promotes peace. Letting others of different beliefs just "be" would be a smart approach IMO.

I don't know what you mean about how we see it differently. Tell me more.

 

[californiacarrie]

...presenting some contradictions:

The Qur'an states "If you are killed in the cause of God, or you die, the forgiveness and mercy of God are better than all that you amass." (3:157) In other words, if you kill someone in the name of God (because they are oppressive, etc) you will be forgiven for all your prior sins, and held in the highest regard. This being the main teaching that many of the extremist follow.
There are many passages within the book that talk of war and of killing non-believers, although it is also seemingly taught that none of these acts should take place unless the person commiting the act has been wronged (opression being the main source of wrongdoings).
And then, there are many passages within the book which teach passiveness - allowing "the final determination" to rest with God (not worrying about the acts of others, etc). "Fight those in the way of God who fight you, but do not be aggressive: God does not like aggressors." (2:190)

I can see how one would get confused and how the extremists could easily have contorted the words of the teachings to fill their own needs. Several of you have already pointed out that this happens in any Christian religion. It's all a matter of context.

 

[californiacarrie]

Look forward to hearing more about it. I am no expert on Muslims or Islam.

My interest is in what promotes peace. Letting others of different beliefs just "be" would be a smart approach IMO.

I don't know what you mean about how we see it differently. Tell me more.

Lol, I am no expert either!

 

[ember]

excusing their "religion" just angers the hell out of me.

Unless they're lopping someones head off....seems they're never HAPPY :laugh:



"Muslims Demand Further Apology From Pope"

ANKARA, Turkey — Muslims in Turkey, Iraq and the Palestinian territories demanded Tuesday that Pope Benedict XVI make a clear apology for his remarks on Islam, instead of saying only that he was "deeply sorry" that Muslims had taken offense.


Rest at link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214318,00.html



Let them be offended...boo hoo :slap:
I sure wouldn't be kissing their a$$ after they came over and took a big $h*t on our country on SEPTEMBER 11th! Did you all forget???? Or is that just their right to happiness? Go watch some of those tributes to the fallen of 9/11 and then justify all of this BS. If that's what makes them happy I say to you, do you also justify John Couey's (or the likes) approach to happiness?
It makes my children happy to sit and gorge themselves on candy, but it's not good for them so it HAS to be regulated....just like these musliim extremists...they have to be kept in check. I think it's great that the Pope has the balls to say what every one else is leary to say. The Pope has a right to happiness as well, maybe it tickled him pink to say what he thinks.
I am Wiccan....our motto is "harm none" so I wrestle with the war issue constantly...but I am also an AMERICAN. They have hated our way of life, ie, freedom for a long time and have been bombing anything associated with us for decades. AND will continue to try. Only recently have we fully retalliated...and they're offended. I don't give a hoot about their happiness.
NEVER FORGET!

Go ahead...bring it...I know y'all will, but I've said my peice and that's all I need to say. No one will ever validate their actions in my book.

 

[narlacat]

excusing their "religion" just angers the hell out of me.

Unless they're lopping someones head off....seems they're never HAPPY :laugh:



"Muslims Demand Further Apology From Pope"

ANKARA, Turkey — Muslims in Turkey, Iraq and the Palestinian territories demanded Tuesday that Pope Benedict XVI make a clear apology for his remarks on Islam, instead of saying only that he was "deeply sorry" that Muslims had taken offense.


Rest at link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214318,00.html



Let them be offended...boo hoo :slap:
I sure wouldn't be kissing their a$$ after they came over and took a big $h*t on our country on SEPTEMBER 11th! Did you all forget???? Or is that just their right to happiness? Go watch some of those tributes to the fallen of 9/11 and then justify all of this BS. If that's what makes them happy I say to you, do you also justify John Couey's (or the likes) approach to happiness?
It makes my children happy to sit and gorge themselves on candy, but it's not good for them so it HAS to be regulated....just like these musliim extremists...they have to be kept in check. I think it's great that the Pope has the balls to say what every one else is leary to say. The Pope has a right to happiness as well, maybe it tickled him pink to say what he thinks.
I am Wiccan....our motto is "harm none" so I wrestle with the war issue constantly...but I am also an AMERICAN. They have hated our way of life, ie, freedom for a long time and have been bombing anything associated with us for decades. AND will continue to try. Only recently have we fully retalliated...and they're offended. I don't give a hoot about their happiness.
NEVER FORGET!

Go ahead...bring it...I know y'all will, but I've said my peice and that's all I need to say. No one will ever validate their actions in my book.

We gathered that from your last post.

 

[californiacarrie]

excusing their "religion" just angers the hell out of me.

You can not condemn an entire religion for the acts of a few. It is unfortunate that the terrorists act in the name of the Muslim religion because their acts are not the proclamation of the entire sect. It is like saying all Catholic preists molest children.

 

[southcitymom]

So a few things I want to throw out there:

Someone asked why the "good" Muslims don't try to stop the "bad" ones. Someone else responded that this was partly out of fear. I will also suggest that it is in part that the Qur'an teaches that there is nothing that one can do about people who turn their hearts against God. The Qur'an teaches that God wills each person to walk down which ever path he so chooses for them. In other words, God decided who would be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buhdist, etc. The Qur'an stresses that its followers are to be responsible for themselves and their own actions, and not to give heart to the actions and beliefs of others. The Qur'an teaches that believers should distance themselves from non-believers.

Thanks for your insights into this discussion. As you have pointed out, many religious texts are filled with dualities - a call to arms/a call to peace, etc... And many of them do also call for a distance b/w believers and non-believers.

It IS confusing and I can see how the subject divides people. For example, I am much more familiar with the Bible than with the Koran - have studied the Bible in more depth and for longer - and even that text which I am familiar with sometimes seems like a swirl of contradictions.

Ultimately, I don't experience what I know of Islam as a terror-inducing religion. People desire the same things, regardless of any Faith they may or may not align themselves with.

 

[southcitymom]

.....I am Wiccan....our motto is "harm none" so I wrestle with the war issue constantly....

The Wiccan motto is beautiful. I embrace it with you. And I definitely understand the fear and sadness that 9-11 engendered in all of us.

 

[angelwngs]

angelwngs--

I couldn't agree with this statement more. Is really IS convoluted logic. No matter WHO is doing it or WHY, it just doesn't make sense.

I am a peace-monger. I sometimes think I should've been been brought up in the 60's. I don't agree with war. I hate hatred. I think everyone on this planet has an inherent right to live PEACEFULLY. There are many people who take that right away from each other. As much as I believe that people have a right to their own religious beliefs, I take major issue when those religious beliefs harm others. What does that prove? Why is it neccessary to kill an innocent NUN? HOLY FREAKING COW-----SHE WAS A NUN!!!!!!!!!! You can't get more innocent than that!

And what the Hell is an HONOR RAPE? Seriously, I don't know, but the name sure implies a lot. Is that like a MERCY BEATING? Or a LOVE-BASED BEHEADING? Or a SENSITIVE SKINNING?

When you do something inherently wrong, regardless of your motives, it is still inherently wrong. I know that some will say whether it's wrong is just my opinion---but can anyone seriously say that strapping bombs to children is right? Strapping bombs to yourself is wrong if it involves killing and maiming innocent bystanders. Now, if you want to go out in the desert somewhere all by yourself and strap yourself up with bombs and blow yourself up where nobody else gets hurt, then go for it.

The second you force someone to be a part of YOUR beliefs is the second it becomes wrong, I dont' care what the reason is behind it. The second you kill or maim someone who didn't want to be killed or maimed, it is wrong. Why should innocent people DIE to further your own agenda???? Regardless of the agenda, or who's agenda it is....if innocent people DIE as a direct result of it, what in the hell does that accomplish? It certainly doesn't validate that agenda AT ALL. How can it?

There's no reason this can't be discussed on a level like adults. Spewing forth venomous comments, insults and disparaging remarks towards others does nothing to advance ones point of view. Quite the opposite, in fact. When one doesn't agree with a posters opinion, there are ways to make note of that without sarcasm and inflammatory remarks. Everyone has a right to post what they believe. To belittle a post simply because one doesn't agree with it is immature and quite telling, IMO. Sometimes people need to bring people down in order for themselves to feel up. Sad.

PEACE be with You, Julianne.

Since I first noticed the Quote beneath your name weeks and weeks ago, I have been sharing it with my friends and family. (In fact, I'm afraid that my borrowing it, may have helped to begin an 'unholy war' here.) I am sorry my using your words has pulled you into an unnecessary verbal battle. Still, I sincerely thank you for sharing them in your signature. They have become a testament of truth among my friends, family and for myself. I hope that you do not mind if I "kidnap them" and borrow them over and over again, when other friends and family enter into discussions making them so very applicable! One of my cousins is planning to make up buttons and bumperstickers with several different quotes on them. She asked if I minded her using "your words". I explained that they were not mine to offer, but that I would be happy to ask for your ok. Julianne, you my dear, may indeed have helped to begin a "movement" reminiscent of the 60's!

I, too, have often wondered how different my own life would be now had I been 'older' during the 60's. I am sure I would have been in the heart of the protests for PEACE. Thank you for voicing your convictions here. It is my belief that the truest definition of ignorance is found in the acceptance of unawareness. Thank you for offering your words, which inturn brought to my attention my own need to further personal awareness to the point of recognizing and verbalizing my own feelings of outrage. I am much less ignorant today, thanks to having read, borrowed and shared your words.

If you don't mind us using your "quote" (<<< pun intended :laugh: ), for bumperstickers and buttons, I'll be happy to mail you some if you want! Just let me know.

 

[Details]

....instead of saying only that he was "deeply sorry" that Muslims had taken offense..

Let them be offended...boo hoo :slap:

He didn't apologise, and he did say something pretty darn offensive - the same as if their big leaders had said that Jesus brought only evil and inhumanity to Christianity.

I sure wouldn't be kissing their a$$ after they came over and took a big $h*t on our country on SEPTEMBER 11th! Did you all forget???? Or is that just their right to happiness? Go watch some of those tributes to the fallen of 9/11 and then justify all of this BS. If that's what makes them happy I say to you, do you also justify John Couey's (or the likes) approach to happiness? ....

The equivalent to what you say is that we should condemn all Christians because of John Couey's actions, and punish them all for that. All muslims did not come over and do anything on Sept 11th. Al Queda did. It's not the same thing, and questioning people's patriotism and telling us to go rewatch 9/11 as if we're idiots who forgot what happened that day is just plain insulting. I remember 9/11. I remember muslims around the world, all people all around the world, even those we had wronged in the past (and we have, as a country), flying the American flag, sharing in our sorrow and outrage (yes, some few didn't, and of course I saw that too).



Oh - and 'honor rape' and all that BS, not to mention the burqua is not any part of Islam. It's part of the retarded tribal customs that were there before Islam, and get merged with it in that part of the world.


Attack those who are attacking us, not the bystanders who have nothing to do with it, aside from living in the same country or being raised in the same religion as some terrorists.