Pope's speech ignites worldwide controversy/ Islam insulted

[windovervocalcords]

Here is a terrific link to just some of the many Islamic statements against terrorism and violence that have been made publically over the last few years:

http://www.unc.edu/%7Ekurzman/terror.htm

Just a taste:

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. ... [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. ... [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
[size=-2]Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40545-2001Oct10.html[/size]
Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.

That's great. Guess I am not the only poster who finds some Muslims peaceful.

Why not just talk to your American Muslim co-workers and friends.

 

[southcitymom]

I totally appreciate these people (especially the Egyptians) putting themselves in possible harm's way to denounce this. But, until it starts happening in greater numbers and world-wide, it's just a tumbleweed in a hurricane.

They have got to start a movement and get their religion back.

The people who made these statements never lost their religion. Islam just IS. What we have to look at is what we tell ourselves Islam is...what gets sold to us in the media as Islam.

 

[Karole28]

Fortunately, you won't have to wait long. I posted a link to many statements by Muslim leaders decrying the actions of the terrorists - these people have been divorcing themselves from the terrorists actions all along. Please read them if you are interested in knowing who is on the otherside of what the nightly news shows you.

Good doesn't sell the news. Evil does. The networks are going to give you burning Popes on a stick every time. But that never tells the entire story.

I do read them, have read them, have watched the documentaries, have familiarized myself with the religion.

Until they un-highjack their religion, they're unfortunately going to suffer the same sideways glances and mistrust they've (reportedly, I've never seen it personally nor had any of my Muslim friends tell me it's happened) experienced in the past.

If Fred Phelps and his ilk highjacked my religion, I promise you, I wouldn't stop screaming (and shooting) until he denounced it or was underground (literally, prostrate)

 

[southcitymom]

I do read them, have read them, have watched the documentaries, have familiarized myself with the religion.

Until they un-highjack their religion, they're unfortunately going to suffer the same sideways glances and mistrust they've (reportedly, I've never seen it personally nor had any of my Muslim friends tell me it's happened) experienced in the past.

If Fred Phelps and his ilk highjacked my religion, I promise you, I wouldn't stop screaming (and shooting) until he denounced it or was underground (literally, prostrate)

I guess it is a matter of perspective. I don't feel like Islam has been hikacked by the terrorists any more than I feel like Christianity has been hijacked by Fred Phelps.

Phelps has just as much of a right to say he is interpretting the Bible correctly as the Pope does. If Phelps had an army of followers who were wreaking havoc in his name based on a hate-filled Biblical interpretation, I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't spend a bit of time kicking and screaming until he was denounced and people of the world saw that the way I and "mainstream" Christrians interpret the Bible is the right way.

That doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Anybody can take any religion and make it mean anything they want. You can't stop that sort of "hijacking", if that's what you want to call it.

 

[Karole28]

The people who made these statements never lost their religion. Islam just IS. What we have to look at is what we tell ourselves Islam is...what gets sold to us in the media as Islam.

Ok, well either you're telling us that they're fine with the extremists taking over their mosques and preaching hatred against all dhimmi, or you're saying they can't control it?

I only got interested in Islam because 3,000 of my fellow Americans were killed intentionally by Muslim men to secure them martyr status. I've chosen to educate myself on it, so that I either a) know who to blame and what's coming next or b) know who not to and when to relax.

I don't tell myself anything about Islam.

 

[southcitymom]

Ok, well either you're telling us that they're fine with the extremists taking over their mosques and preaching hatred against all dhimmi, or you're saying they can't control it?

I only got interested in Islam because 3,000 of my fellow Americans were killed intentionally by Muslim men to secure them martyr status. I've chosen to educate myself on it, so that I either a) know who to blame and what's coming next or b) know who not to and when to relax.

I don't tell myself anything about Islam.

I'm saying they can't control it - and we desparately want them to control it because WE can't control it and that frightens us.

I'm not an extremist apologist or a Muslim apologist. But I have been interested in and studied the religion off and on for the last 20 years. I feel obligated to defend it when I hear people say it is a religion that incites violence, etc... I'm not saying you did this, but inevitably, Islam takes a hit whenever these subjects come up. It's a religion - it can't do anything without man's power and interpretation behind it.

 

[narlacat]

This just makes me angry! :furious: They can behead our citizens, torture our soldiers, treat women like dirt, but the Pope says a true statement about their "religion" and something that happened eons ago and they get thier panties all in a big wad. Islam...a peaceful religion my a$$!

I just hope they settle their butts down.....my mom leaves for a 2 week tour to Italy tomorrow to visit Rome, Venice, and quite a few other spots. Now not only do I have to worry about the plane ride over and back, but I'll be chomping at the bit if they keep acting up knowing my mom is over there. I suggested that she postpone here trip....well, not my mom! She said they want us to stop living and to be afraid and that she will not give them that satisfaction. She also flies planes upside down (aerobatics) :crazy: . She is quite the character! It sucks being the "sandwich" generation....when you have to worry about your children and your parents!

I hesitate to say this, but these extremists cannot be reasonable people. I really think it's time to withdrawl our troops and just level the whole area. It sure did shut Japan up. :silenced:
Just my :twocents:

I can't believe you just said that.
Good plan, lets blow them up, that'll work.

 

[reb]

"until they un-hijack their own religion" -- my thoughts EXACTLY!!! give me one reason i should trust any of them. they already think we are decadent and evil by nature,, & that's whay they want to kill us all... so we're already off on the wrong foot. WHY would i want to associate with anyone who even takes part in a group like that... who associates with terrorist psychos? they all fall under the same banner, and are "unified" by islam,, are they not?
actually this is why i don't belong to any religion,, there's always gonna be someone who claims they are the same thing i am who believes or is doing something i totally disagree with. too many people end up arguing and splintering off over differences in dogma, practice, sacred book interpretation,, blah blah blah blah, ad infinitum. so why have a label at all?? just be a decent person and be done with it already.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I'm saying they can't control it - and we desparately want them to control it because WE can't control it and that frightens us.

I'm not an extremist apologist or a Muslim apologist. But I have been interested in and studied the religion off and on for the last 20 years. I feel obligated to defend it when I hear people say it is a religion that incites violence, etc... I'm not saying you did this, but inevitably, Islam takes a hit whenever these subjects come up. It's a religion - it can't do anything without man's power and interpretation behind it.

Your post makes total sense to me.

 

[Dark Knight]

Your post makes total sense to me.

You'll take up any cause that opposes the Pope or Catholicism, sheesh, lol! :slap: :crazy:

 

[Dark Knight]

I can't believe you just said that.
Good plan, lets blow them up, that'll work.

They seem to have thought that would work in Australia when they set off bombs there. Tit for tat, I say.

 

[windovervocalcords]

You'll take up any cause that opposes the Pope or Catholicism, sheesh, lol! :slap: :crazy:

Read my posts please. I often take up the cause of peacemaking and the reduction of ignorance. I post a number of POV's that I think are interesting.

This is not about Catholics. I gnerally don't think about Catholics much. I do reflect on the war in Iraq and Lebanon and our role as a nation in promoting peace or war.

I happened to catch this on TV because I have been evacuated due to a fire. I do not normally watch tv news. It was all over the news and noone in WS seemed to have noticed or cared. I think its an important topic.

This is about rhetoric and peacemaking. Does someeone of the Pope's stature have responsibility for fanning the flames of war or calming the waters?

Its an open question. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

But before we decide that Islam cannot be saved from its darker side, we should call to mind Christian history. Less than 150 years ago, a pope (Pius IX, “Syllabus of Errors”) was still formally condemning freedom of religion as a heretical notion. And John Calvin, the spiritual progenitor of the theology of America’s founding fathers, ran a cruel theocracy in Geneva that, among other things, executed the theologian Servetus for heresy. Religions, acted on by the Spirit, can change. Our Muslim brothers and sisters need our prayers, and they need us to support the forces among them that are resisting the lure of religious hatred.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTAzMTFjYzVmNTMzNjJmMzcwYmJkZWQ3ZmFhNWY1N2Q=

 

[dingo]

They seem to have thought that would work in Australia when they set off bombs there. Tit for tat, I say.

I can be really vague at times..maybe thats why I dont understand your post.

 

[windovervocalcords]

I can be really vague at times..maybe thats why I dont understand your post.

I didn't get it either.

 

[csds703]

Read my posts please. I often take up the cause of peacemaking and the reduction of ignorance. I post a number of POV's that I think are interesting.

This is not about Catholics. I gnerally don't think about Catholics much. I do reflect on the war in Iraq and Lebanon and our role as a nation in promoting peace or war.

I happened to catch this on TV because I have been evacuated due to a fire. I do not normally watch tv news. It was all over the news and noone in WS seemed to have noticed or cared. I think its an important topic.

This is about rhetoric and peacemaking. Does someeone of the Pope's stature have responsibility for fanning the flames of war or calming the waters?

Its an open question. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

But before we decide that Islam cannot be saved from its darker side, we should call to mind Christian history. Less than 150 years ago, a pope (Pius IX, “Syllabus of Errors”) was still formally condemning freedom of religion as a heretical notion. And John Calvin, the spiritual progenitor of the theology of America’s founding fathers, ran a cruel theocracy in Geneva that, among other things, executed the theologian Servetus for heresy. Religions, acted on by the Spirit, can change. Our Muslim brothers and sisters need our prayers, and they need us to support the forces among them that are resisting the lure of religious hatred.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTAzMTFjYzVmNTMzNjJmMzcwYmJkZWQ3ZmFhNWY1N2Q=

Without getting into a debate on whether all muslims are evil, your question makes perfect sense to me. The pope has many followers who listen to his words as if they come straight from heaven. He has a responsibility to both the catholics and non catholics of the world to help bring about peace, not flame the fires.

 

[Dark Knight]

I can be really vague at times..maybe thats why I dont understand your post.

Bali.

 

[dingo]

Bali.

Ok....but Bali isnt Australia..thats where I got confused.

 

[southcitymom]

Your post makes total sense to me.

I have much appreciated your contributions to this thread, WOVC.

 

[Floh]

Good doesn't sell the news. Evil does. The networks are going to give you burning Popes on a stick every time. But that never tells the entire story.

Hear hear!

 

[Reader]

Read my posts please. I often take up the cause of peacemaking and the reduction of ignorance. I post a number of POV's that I think are interesting.

This is not about Catholics. I gnerally don't think about Catholics much. I do reflect on the war in Iraq and Lebanon and our role as a nation in promoting peace or war.

I happened to catch this on TV because I have been evacuated due to a fire. I do not normally watch tv news. It was all over the news and noone in WS seemed to have noticed or cared. I think its an important topic.

This is about rhetoric and peacemaking. Does someeone of the Pope's stature have responsibility for fanning the flames of war or calming the waters?

Its an open question. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

But before we decide that Islam cannot be saved from its darker side, we should call to mind Christian history. Less than 150 years ago, a pope (Pius IX, “Syllabus of Errors”) was still formally condemning freedom of religion as a heretical notion. And John Calvin, the spiritual progenitor of the theology of America’s founding fathers, ran a cruel theocracy in Geneva that, among other things, executed the theologian Servetus for heresy. Religions, acted on by the Spirit, can change. Our Muslim brothers and sisters need our prayers, and they need us to support the forces among them that are resisting the lure of religious hatred.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NTAzMTFjYzVmNTMzNjJmMzcwYmJkZWQ3ZmFhNWY1N2Q=

WOVC, I admire your patience in working to promote peace and understanding, it is appreciated.

Agree that this is about setting an example for religious followers of any persuasion, and most of the other religious leaders, including Moslem, have spoken out and written to promote peace and knowledge about their faiths and it's true meanings and goals. I've posted some sites myself in the PP, where Moslem leaders condemned the actions of the 9/11 terrorists strongly in writing and in speeches. One of their leaders visited the U.S. just recently and spoke in several venues and churches, including in Washington D.C., promoting an understanding of the true message of Islam and promoting peace.

But no matter how strongly and loudly the mainstream Islamists speak out, they should no more be expected to control these secretive and hidden terrorists cells, than Pat Robertson would be expected to control a secretive and hidden Branch of Davidian sect, all Christians.

What the pope really meant to accomplish, as you asked, with his speech has still not been made clear to me in his statements since. I do wonder if this was the reaction he expected or even wanted?

Besides the religious leaders, what about all the Moslem leaders working so hard in Iraq and Afghanistan to fight terrorists that have sprung up there since the Bush invasion, and trying to bring the reality of democracies to their countries per the U.S. government's vision? The Afghans fought against their own Moslem leaders and drove the Talibans out of office.

What about the Moslem leaders who worked so hard to bring an end to the war between Israel and the Hezbollah's, and are still working to keep the peace between them?

There are many leaders who are constantly speaking out and trying to stop the terror and bring peace to their own countries and the whole mideast. Mideast leaders, all from Moslem countries, have helped the U.S. negotiate with Iran in preventing a showdown and possible war.

It does no good to start comparing religions and their violence, for one reason, Christianity will always be found to be one of the most violent in speading it's word in the past. Other examples have been given but one I remember was when Louis XIV slaughtered thousands, maybe millions, of Heugenots in his own country, in the name of Catholicism.

It does no good to advocate bombing or annihilating a whole people or religion. That makes us no better than the terrorists, who are actually very small, fanatic groups of people in different countries, who have totally misused and misinterpreted Islam for their own warped purposes of spreading hate and destruction.

If the extreme posts that I have read on this site today are any indication of the true feelings of the majority of our people as a result of 9/11, then I have to say the terrorists have won, because they have made us as violent and fanatical as they are.