Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

I don't know whether Amber was kept alive for some time before be murdered, but it was possible, especially in Melissa Barthélemy's case, it was very likely she was kept alive for a while, because the killer knew some very detail information of her family

Unfortunately that doesn’t mean she was kept alive. LISK could’ve gone through her phone and grilled her on who’s who in the photos and the contacts list in her phone.

 

[marsyao]

Unfortunately that doesn’t mean she was kept alive. LISK could’ve gone through her phone and grilled her on who’s who in the photos and the contacts list in her phone.

According to Melissa's sister Amanda, the killer knew a lot of detail information about their family, so it was possible that Melissa was kept alive for a while, for how long we don't know

 

[Rbm2002]

This is a continuation of the Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert thread. Quoting from the original to clarify why this thread was started in the first place.
What if Shannan Gilbert was sensitive to energy and could pick up energy. Hear me out. What if she got possessed by one of the victims? That she really felt she was being hunted. Even though they found no drugs in her system and ran away from those trying to help her. She was reliving one of the victims murder scene because they were tired of no one looking for them. Maybe their soles couldn't rest in peace and move on. I mean Shannan was the reason the lost girls were found.



That said, please do not attack each other and/or make accusations against each other. Also, bashing victims' family members is against ToS. As is sleuthing these family members. Discussing what they may have or not said in media interviews, is okay. Just please be respectful.

Previous thread(s):

Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert​

 

[LotteDK]

I wonder? the driver is there to protect the girls. So why did she run from him, and say "they" in her 911 call? something happened, that made her fear her "john" and the driver. Did they know each other, did the driver deliver other girls to him. And another thing, does anyone have the craigs list pictures and text, that the victims used? Why did the killer choose them? out of hundreds of adds, could it be their looks, the service they offered, did he maybe check them in social networks? I belive the killer lived/live there for many years, enjoying his graveyard, and his garden.. where he used the burlap sacks for growing vegetables. And a terribel thought.. was it planned, I mean.. was she/they sold to her death, like a dark web thing?

 

[phi1ip]

In that moment, there is a possibility that Shannan did fear her driver. However, there is speculation that this fear or paranoia could have been drug related, and not really anything the driver did. As for if she feared him in general, I don't believe she did. From my very very loose memory of the Gone Girls book [someone please correct me if I'm wrong], her driver that night was new-ish, but someone Shannan trusted. I really don't think she even referred to him as her "john". I'm a little bit confused on your question of if the driver delivered other girls to him. By "him", are you referring to LISK? Or the man that Shannan was meeting that night (not saying they aren't the same person, but we don't have any proof that they are). Either way, I believe it has been determined that the driver of Shannan the night she was last seen played a very minor role in this whole situation, and is not connected to any of the other cases in any way.

 

[LotteDK]

Sorry if my text were a bit confusing. By "john" I meen here customer, not the driver. And drugs can absolutely cause paranoia. But these girls a often tough cookies, they are not easy to scare. An maybe it wasen´t what the driver did, but what he did not do. He is there to protect her, and maybe as a new driver, he did not know what to do? And would a person doing something illegal, lie about how much and how long he has been doing it? Making money from prostitution, even as "just the driver" could make somebody lie. A girl with a high risk "job", will not trust anybody she doesent know well. But it is just a theory, there is a lack of evidence, but maybe a theory one day, will solve the puzzle. Thank you for your reply, and your thougts. I am from Denmark, so some spelling and translation may not be the best.

 

[WINDSOR]

I think one has to step back for a moment and consider the 'character' of the people involved.

First Brewer, the 'john'. A party person who hires sex workers, appears relatively affluent, appears to live alone in a large house. From statements he has made, he appears to know people and things, that many law-abiding citizens do not. Brewer dealt directly with the driver Michael Pak whom he likely knew previously. Pak, a convicted felon who appeared to derive his income from working as a facilitator and driver in the sex-trade.

Neither of these two men appear to have any problems with the moral or legal restraints in their lives.

Now Shannan, lived in the New York-New Jersey metro area. Brewer's home was in Oak Beach, Long Island a significant distance from where Shannan usually plied her trade. There had to be substantial motivation for Pak to arrange this 'date' so far away from his and Shannan's usual turf.

We know Shannan, had no idea where Brewer's home was.

Regarding the myth of drug induced paranoia, yes that happens, however paranoia is a healthy defense mechanism that all humans experience when the situation does not appear right.

Shannan, was not a stupid woman, she could figure things out such as,
1) Pak has arranged the date.
2) Pak has brought Shannan to somewhere she is not familiar with, far from where Shannan usually worked.

These two facts would arose suspicion in anybody's mind.

4)Then something occurs in Brewer's house, where Shannan fears for her life and calls 911.
5) She leaves Brewer's house, but also runs from Pak.
6) Running from Pak, while he is following her. Shannan, according to Pak, 'disappears' and Pak leaves Oak Beach. Shannan ends up dead.

Put yourself in Shannan's shoes, and you will see, it was not paranoia, Shannan was scared to death.

 

[Sallyla]

I have a theory, pure speculation of course. But interesting non the less I think.

Some say the John who arranged the GB4’s final dates convinced them to ditch their cellphones. This would mean that John knew in advance he was going to kill them, and shows the killer and the John are one and the same.

I’m not quite convinced that happened. Maureen, Melissa and Shannan all had cells with them. Amber Costello didn’t have her own mobile, only a shared one, so it’s plausible she might not take it with her. That leaves Melissa and I can’t find confirmation what happened to her phone.

There’s a lot of questions and things that don’t make sense. Like Shannan leaving and there just happened to be a serial killer who chanced across her or her coincidentally going missing near the GB4.

I listened to the Lisk podcasts Q&A with producer Shannan today. Even though the male producer thought Lisk might a group, both of them felt pretty certain Brewer isn’t involved.

So I mulled it over. Then it occurred to me, if you were a serial killer of escorts, your main concern is going to be making sure there is as little info as possible linking you to those victims.

So, if a serial killer had noticed, for example, that a middle aged male neighbour was regularly entertaining prostitutes, that would be ideal. So the SK could’ve sat on his porch, watching who came and went, if they had drivers, if they were wasted etc, etc And Brewer would never have a clue his escort visitors were being watched and sometimes taken.

And there would be no forensic evidence of the SK having earlier interactions with her as they hadn’t happened.

So maybe Shannan is more like the others in that there the plan was always to try and take her when she left, but the complications created by her having a psychotic break meaning her abduction was noisier and more witnessed than the others.

Just speculation, as I said.

 

[OnTheCase27]

I have a theory, pure speculation of course. But interesting non the less I think.

Some say the John who arranged the GB4’s final dates convinced them to ditch their cellphones. This would mean that John knew in advance he was going to kill them, and shows the killer and the John are one and the same.

I’m not quite convinced that happened. Maureen, Melissa and Shannan all had cells with them. Amber Costello didn’t have her own mobile, only a shared one, so it’s plausible she might not take it with her. That leaves Melissa and I can’t find confirmation what happened to her phone.

There’s a lot of questions and things that don’t make sense. Like Shannan leaving and there just happened to be a serial killer who chanced across her or her coincidentally going missing near the GB4.

I listened to the Lisk podcasts Q&A with producer Shannan today. Even though the male producer thought Lisk might a group, both of them felt pretty certain Brewer isn’t involved.

So I mulled it over. Then it occurred to me, if you were a serial killer of escorts, your main concern is going to be making sure there is as little info as possible linking you to those victims.

So, if a serial killer had noticed, for example, that a middle aged male neighbour was regularly entertaining prostitutes, that would be ideal. So the SK could’ve sat on his porch, watching who came and went, if they had drivers, if they were wasted etc, etc And Brewer would never have a clue his escort visitors were being watched and sometimes taken.

And there would be no forensic evidence of the SK having earlier interactions with her as they hadn’t happened.

So maybe Shannan is more like the others in that there the plan was always to try and take her when she left, but the complications created by her having a psychotic break meaning her abduction was noisier and more witnessed than the others.

Just speculation, as I said.

We know what happened with Melissa’s phone the killer used it to make calls to her sister. DS Amber’s roommate insisted he questioned Amber on why she wasn’t taking the phone and she stated that’s how he wants it.

 

[Sallyla]

We know what happened with Melissa’s phone the killer used it to make calls to her sister. DS Amber’s roommate insisted he questioned Amber on why she wasn’t taking the phone and she stated that’s how he wants it.

I meant Meghan’s phone when I mentioned Melissa the second time.

 

[Sallyla]

Sherre has a go fund me up to pay for expert analysis of the tapes. It is available on the Remembering Shannan Gilbert FB page.

 

[dotr]

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived.
Sept 25 2020

 

[Betty P]

The Gilgo Beach Murders Were a Cold Case. Then a New Police Chief Arrived.
Sept 25 2020

As glad as I am to see progress in this case (and hope it continues) I was a little disturbed to read this:

Ms. Hart needed a workaround. That’s where her old colleagues at the F.B.I. came in. Since it was declared an official partner in the Long Island investigation, the F.B.I. was able to reach out to private businesses with DNA databases where the Suffolk police could not

Who are these private businesses with large DNA databases? How did they get access to personal DNA of so many people? I have my suspicions about these businesses and their intent. It makes me very concerned for protecting the privacy of our health information.

 

[Betty P]

My theory is these women were killed by clientele who contracted with pimps to provide them for this purpose. I'm not familiar with sexual perversions, but sick people who are into this kind of thing probably serve as a lucrative market.

These clients probably pay a great deal of money for this service and the price probably includes disposal of the victim once the murder is committed. Obviously, the women aren't consenting to the murder scenario, but the pimps who specialize in this trade know the types to recruit, e.g. sex workers on drugs or who are otherwise impaired, desperate, who don't mind dangerous situations. It's plausible some were recruited from other areas and also possible there were more than one pimp over the years willing to provide these services.

It's also possible pimps didn't handle the removal and disposal of the deceased sex worker. Its possible there was a local member of these sick john groups willing to perform the service, also for a price. Dismemberment was probably used early on as the disposal person needed a way to hide women's bodies as they were removed from clients homes.

Local LE always know what's up with prostitution in their jurisdictions. Somewhere along the line they became aware of this sick "snuff" clientele activity in the area. Instead of arresting them, they also took bribes to keep quiet. The cost of this kind of activity is probably quite high, so some of the clientele are wealthy, possibly influential. JMO

 

[Gilgo Case]

My theory is these women were killed by clientele who contracted with pimps to provide them for this purpose. I'm not familiar with sexual perversions, but sick people who are into this kind of thing probably serve as a lucrative market.

These clients probably pay a great deal of money for this service and the price probably includes disposal of the victim once the murder is committed. Obviously, the women aren't consenting to the murder scenario, but the pimps who specialize in this trade know the types to recruit, e.g. sex workers on drugs or who are otherwise impaired, desperate, who don't mind dangerous situations. It's plausible some were recruited from other areas and also possible there were more than one pimp over the years willing to provide these services.

It's also possible pimps didn't handle the removal and disposal of the deceased sex worker. Its possible there was a local member of these sick john groups willing to perform the service, also for a price. Dismemberment was probably used early on as the disposal person needed a way to hide women's bodies as they were removed from clients homes.

Local LE always know what's up with prostitution in their jurisdictions. Somewhere along the line they became aware of this sick "snuff" clientele activity in the area. Instead of arresting them, they also took bribes to keep quiet. The cost of this kind of activity is probably quite high, so some of the clientele are wealthy, possibly influential. JMO

This is a rather far-fetched theory involving a coverup between multiple pimps and law enforcement. There is no evidence that points to any of these conclusions. It is much more likely that a single person is responsible.

 

[Betty P]

This is a rather far-fetched theory involving a coverup between multiple pimps and law enforcement. There is no evidence that points to any of these conclusions. It is much more likely that a single person is responsible.

Hey, no problem. It's ok to disagree, we all have our own opinions about this case. I've followed it here at WS from the very beginning.

I don't think there were many pimps involved in this, it's possible some pimps were in the dark about the situation, too. But from a procurement standpoint (likely before Craigslist type advertising), the sick johns may have used a trusted broker or two to help procure victims.

As evidenced by the long time span and the number of sex worker bodies found, this wasn't a common occurrence and the johns who participated in this activity weren't numerous. Some of these victims may have also lost their lives "unintentionally" with sick johns not intending to kill them, but the end result of weird sex gone wrong.

JMO, it seems more plausible to me than a serial killer who procured all of these sex workers on his own and disposed of them, except for Shannon who coincidentally just wandered into the brush land adjacent to the crime scene and died on her own only to be discovered over a year later. I believe Shannon's murder fits into these killings, its not coincidental.

ETA: Keep in mind, in most big cities there are all kinds of agreements between LE, pimps and sex workers. It's the way of the world. JMO

ETA: There also had to be a reason why local LE failed to investigate these cases, why they covered for each other, why they kept other LE agencies out of the case. That's always hinky behavior. JMO

 

[marsyao]

My theory is these women were killed by clientele who contracted with pimps to provide them for this purpose. I'm not familiar with sexual perversions, but sick people who are into this kind of thing probably serve as a lucrative market.

The problem to your theory of course is that three of the Gilgo Beach four, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, Melissa Barthélemy and Amber Lynn Costello, did not have a pimp when they were murdered

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

This is a rather far-fetched theory involving a coverup between multiple pimps and law enforcement. There is no evidence that points to any of these conclusions. It is much more likely that a single person is responsible.

LISK is definitely a lone wolf. Just as he considers the killings to be his secret and his alone, his narcissism/sociopathy won’t allow him to let anyone else have the credit and/or recognition for these murders. These types neither share or play well with others.

Consider BTK, another loner; his ego led to his downfall and capture. When the press and police were pointing to other suspects, BTK came out of a decades-long silence to say hey, guess what, I did this, the credit goes to ME and not some other guy; this is MY handiwork.

 

[marsyao]

Not every serial killers are loners, for example Robert Hanson had many male friends and a perfect normal family life

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

Not every serial killers are loners, for example Robert Hanson had many male friends and a perfect normal family life

I’m referring to a lone killer, one who operates alone; it has nothing to do with his family or number of friends. He may have lots of friends and contemporaries but when it comes to the killing, that’s his moment and his alone. Compartmentalization at its finest.

Look at Ted Bundy: worked a crisis hotline, law student, active in the political community, had a girlfriend, but committed his crimes alone.