Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[snooptroop88]

(snipped)
But what does that mean? If Shannan feared Rex, why would she not accept Colletti's help? Or Pak's for that matter. All she had to do was get in Pak's car and she'd be safe, yet she ran past it twice, once at Brewer's, once at Colletti's.

Well, a. in that case he didn't wait for her to visit a john and snatch her afterwards, so if he used that tactic in the 90s, by that time he seemed to have changed his m.o. And b. picking someone up outside a house is very different from snatching someone between the house and the car with the driver waiting, if that was indeed his plan.

But that doesn't explain why he would remove her clothes in the swamp, then take her quite some distance through the same swamp to where he left her body.

At a certain point, after a body has been outside for long, pinpointing an exact cause of death becomes difficult. A naked woman found lying in a swamp, with no sign of violence done to her, and no evidence of anyone else having been there, together with the statements from the witnesses, is enough to make "exposure" and "hypothermia" the most credible cause of death.

How much help did Colletti actually offer? And did she really want to meet with LE, or just get out of there safely? She was already in trouble at that time with LE, that's my understanding. If she wasn't, it's not like she's going to now meet with LE in her situation and oh, well, she won't have any problems while she tries to implicate "John Springfield" as a threat. She probably doesn't even know RH's real name. While I think she wanted LE on the scene, I don't necessarily think she wanted to meet with LE. In terms of Pak, RH may have done or said something where she wondered if her present company wasn't "in on" something as she clearly doesn't seem to trust them, and now that she's on the phone with LE, they're not going to be too happy with her, either. She undoubtedly knows that.

I don't think RH planned to snatch her at all that night. Removing the clothes and taking her a distance, "miss-leaders." He wants this murder minimized, he can't really afford the situation it could create, and which it did in reality end up creating regardless. Plus, moving the body to where he did out in the swamp casts suspicion on others at Oak Beach. Whatever the case, if RH did spook her badly earlier, though, he definitely can't afford to have SG talking to LE and he can't know at that point whether or not that will happen. He knows if she waits for LE, she'll suffer consequences herself, so he watches, hoping she won't, hoping she just wants LE drawn out there and enough of a scene where she can get out safely. And then he got her because she is now a threat to him and it had to be that night, she can't be talking to Alex, or talking to Mom, or talking to anyone else. Theory only.

Agreed exact cause of death is difficult, but it's made easier by the fact that at this time in that area, RH was on the prowl and leaving a trail of dead people who also happen to be very young and petite sex workers not that far away from where all of this happened. That seems to be the more logical "from here to there" movement in the situation than "yeah, well-- something, something natural...drowning maybe..."

 

[FergusMcDuck]

How much help did Colletti actually offer?

He offered to call 911 and an opportunity for safety in his company. Shannan rejected both.

And did she really want to meet with LE, or just get out of there safely?

If that's what she wanted, all she had to do was get in Pak's car.

She was already in trouble at that time with LE, that's my understanding. If she wasn't, it's not like she's going to now meet with LE in her situation and oh, well, she won't have any problems while she tries to implicate "John Springfield" as a threat.

Sure, but she has no problem calling 911 from Brewer's house, which she didn't intend to leave, and if she wanted to avoid the police she could just go home with Pak.

She probably doesn't even know RH's real name. While I think she wanted LE on the scene, I don't necessarily think she wanted to meet with LE. In terms of Pak, RH may have done or said something where she wondered if her present company wasn't "in on" something as she clearly doesn't seem to trust them, and now that she's on the phone with LE, they're not going to be too happy with her, either. She undoubtedly knows that.

Where would he have done or said anything? Shannan was in Brewer's house when her paranoia began.

I don't think RH planned to snatch her at all that night. Removing the clothes and taking her a distance, "miss-leaders." He wants this murder minimized, he can't really afford the situation it could create, and which it did in reality end up creating regardless. Plus, moving the body to where he did out in the swamp casts suspicion on others at Oak Beach. Whatever the case, if RH did spook her badly earlier, though, he definitely can't afford to have SG talking to LE and he can't know at that point whether or not that will happen. He knows if she waits for LE, she'll suffer consequences herself, so he watches, hoping she won't, hoping she just wants LE drawn out there and enough of a scene where she can get out safely. And then he got her because she is now a threat to him and it had to be that night, she can't be talking to Alex, or talking to Mom, or talking to anyone else. Theory only.

Personally, I think this is a clear case of Occam's Razor - don't needlessly multiply entities. Rex isn't needed for anything that happened that night. Shanna's fear is directed at a nebulous set of "they", not a former john who scared her. No one saw Rex, no one saw his car, nothing of what was found in the swamp - clothes or Shannan's body - require Rex. Shannan was bipolar and didn't take her meds, and we know her family has a history of mental illness. There's nothing shameful about that and it certainly doesn't make her death any less tragic.

Agreed exact cause of death is difficult, but it's made easier by the fact that at this time in that area, RH was on the prowl and leaving a trail of dead people who also happen to be very young and petite sex workers not that far away from where all of this happened. That seems to be the more logical "from here to there" movement in the situation than "yeah, well-- something, something natural...drowning maybe..."

Except we don't know of he ever was on the "prowl" nearby. All we know is that he buried victims there - at first just the identifiable parts, while leaving other remains in places like Manorville or Lakeview where they were easily found. And what we actually know about his m.o., especially around the time of Shannan's disappearance, suggest that he didn't stalk or recon his victims, but contacted them for their services.

 

[Betty P]

How much help did Colletti actually offer? And did she really want to meet with LE, or just get out of there safely? She was already in trouble at that time with LE, that's my understanding. If she wasn't, it's not like she's going to now meet with LE in her situation and oh, well, she won't have any problems while she tries to implicate "John Springfield" as a threat. She probably doesn't even know RH's real name. While I think she wanted LE on the scene, I don't necessarily think she wanted to meet with LE. In terms of Pak, RH may have done or said something where she wondered if her present company wasn't "in on" something as she clearly doesn't seem to trust them, and now that she's on the phone with LE, they're not going to be too happy with her, either. She undoubtedly knows that.

I don't think RH planned to snatch her at all that night. Removing the clothes and taking her a distance, "miss-leaders." He wants this murder minimized, he can't really afford the situation it could create, and which it did in reality end up creating regardless. Plus, moving the body to where he did out in the swamp casts suspicion on others at Oak Beach. Whatever the case, if RH did spook her badly earlier, though, he definitely can't afford to have SG talking to LE and he can't know at that point whether or not that will happen. He knows if she waits for LE, she'll suffer consequences herself, so he watches, hoping she won't, hoping she just wants LE drawn out there and enough of a scene where she can get out safely. And then he got her because she is now a threat to him and it had to be that night, she can't be talking to Alex, or talking to Mom, or talking to anyone else. Theory only.

Agreed exact cause of death is difficult, but it's made easier by the fact that at this time in that area, RH was on the prowl and leaving a trail of dead people who also happen to be very young and petite sex workers not that far away from where all of this happened. That seems to be the more logical "from here to there" movement in the situation than "yeah, well-- something, something natural...drowning maybe..."

It's possible.

WRT drowning, remember SG's body was found lying face-up. Any water in the grass wouldn't have been deep enough to drown her in that location.

 

[Warwick7]

The clothes found at a distance from her body (and on a route between the last place she was seen and where she was found), with only swampland between them. If killed by a pursuer, the clothes would be by her (or on her). The killer would have no reason to strip her and then move her across the swamp. But people suffering from hypothermia often shed their clothes at some point. The clothes would also be wet and heavy from trekking through the swamp.



Hardly key. Hyoid bone (not missing, but lacking it's greater horn) would be one of the first things to go after more than one year exposed to nature and the elements.



But who was chasing her? She never says


If Hackett wasn't just inserting himself in the case for attention (and based on his other claims I'd say the odds are good he was), then he would have given her a sedative for a reason. And if she then rushed out quickly into the swamp, then the sedative could have kicked in and caused her to lie down where she shouldn't.



But she could never say who they were despite having many opportunities to do so. Brewer? She didn't want to leave his house. Pak? He would have no reason to harm her and they talked plenty during the 911 call. She knocked on doors but refused to speak to the inhabitants or enter their houses. Hackett was physically unlikely to be chasing anyone.

I don't doubt Shannan thought she was pursued, I just don't see any evidence anyone actually was.



How would Rex stalk someone from a gated community out in the middle of nowhere? How would he know Brewer would pick just that night to call for a sex worker? And if he was there, why wouldn't Shannan just say so? Why run from Pak or Colletti?



What was the plan? Shannan had a driver parked outside. Was Rex going to snatch her as she walked to the car and hope no one noticed?



I really don't see it. That area was where Rex buried his victims - the identifiable parts of the early ones and the full remains of the later ones. If anything, he would have a good reason not to take and/or kill women too close.

I only got as far as your first section. You said: "If killed by a pursuer, the clothes would be by her (or on her). The killer would have no reason to strip her and then move her across the swamp."

You have no idea what a killer would do or how he was thinking. Only these particular killer(s) would.

Richard Allen pursued, then stripped both young girls, didn't bother to sexually assault them and then slit their throats...

 

[WINDSOR]

This recent discussion from one perspective follows very closely with the SCPD view on the demise of Shannan Gilbert. Shannan wandered into the marsh and likely died of hypothermia. No crimes were committed and no charges were laid.
The SCPD claims the evidence supports this conclusion.

On the other hand, and disregarding RH's potential involvement for a moment, many hold to the other perspective, that crimes were committed, and they lead to Shannan's death.

It is my opinion, that when somebody calls 911, stating they fear for their life, and hours later they disappear and are later found dead, this requires a thorough, (independent of the SCPD), investigation.

We know the SCPD refused to involve the FBI, we know the SCPD blocked the release of the 911 call for years. We know from the outset of Shannan's disappearance, the official SCPD stance was, no crime occurred and Shannan just wandered off into the marsh.

Since most of the key individuals involved are not talking, and no LE agency is re-interviewing the witnesses, chances are good that we will never know what really happened.

 

[Vern]

I only got as far as your first section. You said: "If killed by a pursuer, the clothes would be by her (or on her). The killer would have no reason to strip her and then move her across the swamp."

You have no idea what a killer would do or how he was thinking. Only these particular killer(s) would.

Richard Allen pursued, then stripped both young girls, didn't bother to sexually assault them and then slit their throats...

Richard Allen, by his own admissions, pursued, then had both young girls strip because he intended to sexually assault them. He was then interrupted which led to him forcing them across the creek where he brutally murdered them separating them from some of their clothing as they moved.

 

[Warwick7]

Richard Allen, by his own admissions, pursued, then had both young girls strip because he intended to sexually assault them. He was then interrupted which led to him forcing them across the creek where he brutally murdered them separating them from some of their clothing as they moved.

Exactly, my point. We do not know what a killer thinks or how killer acts. They're going to do what they're going to do.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I only got as far as your first section. You said: "If killed by a pursuer, the clothes would be by her (or on her). The killer would have no reason to strip her and then move her across the swamp."

You have no idea what a killer would do or how he was thinking. Only these particular killer(s) would.

Richard Allen pursued, then stripped both young girls, didn't bother to sexually assault them and then slit their throats...

At that point he was already in the swamp. There's no reason to strip her there then move all the way across the swamp to kill her.

 

[snooptroop88]

At that point he was already in the swamp. There's no reason to strip her there then move all the way across the swamp to kill her.

The area behind Hackett's house bumps up against Captree State Park. There could have been a logistical advantage to the killer if he were aware of that and could navigate the area. Also, nobody was there that night, and we really have no idea what happened. The current version of events is that she just trotted into this thorny thicketed mess of an area and accidentally did herself in. But we genuinely don't know that she didn't actually make it right out the gate (she came very close to it) and back onto Ocean Parkway. If so, maybe someone was watching there, someone who's very familiar with Ocean Parkway. And maybe things happened quite differently, and that person approached the area where she was found in a completely different way, we don't know right now. Why take her clothes off, why leave those items where they were found? "Miss-leaders." And if it was RH, he probably never wanted a "miss-leader" more than he did that night after that phone call.

And agreed, we're not going to find out without something turning up in the electronics. It's going to remain an accident. I really and truly hope something will turn up, and I don't think it's at all impossible. If nothing does, that's imo another layer of misery for people that already have had plenty. But RH is the one who made most of it, and at least they have him, and I'm grateful for that. Nonetheless, what happened to SG will never be any accident as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Warwick7]

At that point he was already in the swamp. There's no reason to strip her there then move all the way across the swamp to kill her.

We do not know there is no reason.

 

[CuriousCricket]

At that point he was already in the swamp. There's no reason to strip her there then move all the way across the swamp to kill her.

Trying to be reasonable with the mind of a killer? I wonder if that could ever work? Even less so with RH. We've seen documents that detail how much thought he put into miss-leaders. We have a witness saying he was a "game player"at least with the young woman she believed to be Karen Vergata. Also, with KV, she was taken to the party by a police officer.

I suspect that RH dealt with so many sex workers that when any of his acquaintances were having a "party", he may have been the go-to guy to recommend party-girls. Seeing him as a game player, I can just imagine how much he would have enjoyed showing up somewhere as a surprise to a "party girl" he knew was afraid of him. We have the taxi driver's statement of SG's encounter with a man with the shape and body type of RH.

RH was cunning and devious. LE was not interested that night and for years stymied the investigation. I don't see how what we can judge "reasonable" from this time and distance.

 

[Betty P]

Trying to be reasonable with the mind of a killer? I wonder if that could ever work? Even less so with RH. We've seen documents that detail how much thought he put into miss-leaders. We have a witness saying he was a "game player"at least with the young woman she believed to be Karen Vergata. Also, with KV, she was taken to the party by a police officer.

I suspect that RH dealt with so many sex workers that when any of his acquaintances were having a "party", he may have been the go-to guy to recommend party-girls. Seeing him as a game player, I can just imagine how much he would have enjoyed showing up somewhere as a surprise to a "party girl" he knew was afraid of him. We have the taxi driver's statement of SG's encounter with a man with the shape and body type of RH.

RH was cunning and devious. LE was not interested that night and for years stymied the investigation. I don't see how what we can judge "reasonable" from this time and distance.

The original investigation was “tainted” so to speak. From the 911 call forward, the investigation was mishandled, covered up, slow walked, etc. There’s not much from the evidence that can’t be questioned, with the exception of the recording of the 911 call and calls made to victims family and friends, plus the second autopsy report. False information was given to the family, their attorney and possibly to the news media.

JMO, there would need to be a new investigation by an independent LE agency. Even then, new investigators would be left with mostly the same old evidence.

ETA: A scenario I considered from early in SGs sad story was that she was that after last being seen banging on the Dorris of neighbors homes in Oak Beach, she went into someone’s home, found herself in danger and needed to escape again. She may have been chased from a location while fully or partially undressed, running into the marsh where she was killed. The killer or others who retrieved her discarded clothing and belongings and disposed of them back in the marsh. JMO

 

[Mr.Dandy]

It's possible.

WRT drowning, remember SG's body was found lying face-up. Any water in the grass wouldn't have been deep enough to drown her in that location.

Trying to be reasonable with the mind of a killer? I wonder if that could ever work? Even less so with RH. We've seen documents that detail how much thought he put into miss-leaders. We have a witness saying he was a "game player"at least with the young woman she believed to be Karen Vergata. Also, with KV, she was taken to the party by a police officer.

I suspect that RH dealt with so many sex workers that when any of his acquaintances were having a "party", he may have been the go-to guy to recommend party-girls. Seeing him as a game player, I can just imagine how much he would have enjoyed showing up somewhere as a surprise to a "party girl" he knew was afraid of him. We have the taxi driver's statement of SG's encounter with a man with the shape and body type of RH.

RH was cunning and devious. LE was not interested that night and for years stymied the investigation. I don't see how what we can judge "reasonable" from this time and distance.

That’s the thing, he didn’t kill every sex worker he came in contact with. For instance, I don’t believe Amber Costello was an intended victim… not initially. He went to her house for a “date”, exposing everything about his identity. Why kill her? But Amber and her roommates did that little scam and it pissed RH off. Then he sent her those texts “that wasn’t very nice” when you know he was thinking “I’ll make you pay! You don’t know who you’re messing with”.
As for Shannan running out into the marsh, whether she was high or having a mental episode, something about her drowning just doesn’t seem right. Her clothes were scattered. That could be a mental episode. You know how when people are freezing they strip off their clothes? Why would you strip off your clothes if you’re freezing? It’s a known phenomenon. It’s weird and makes no sense but they do it. So, a mental episode could have caused her to do that.
Being face up and drowning? I don’t know if there would have been enough water in the area for her to have done that.
I don’t think she is an RH victim. With everything else that happened with her that morning, it’s really hard for me to put him into the equation. Had he met her before? Possible but unrelated to the other girls. Did she OD? It can’t be ruled out. Toxicology meant nothing as she was a known cocaine user and the drug test came back negative. She should have had something in her system. Was someone else around that killed Shannan? Maybe. But if she was murdered, it wasn’t random. Someone knew her, knew where she was, followed her.

 

[Warwick7]

The original investigation was “tainted” so to speak. From the 911 call forward, the investigation was mishandled, covered up, slow walked, etc. There’s not much from the evidence that can’t be questioned, with the exception of the recording of the 911 call and calls made to victims family and friends, plus the second autopsy report. False information was given to the family, their attorney and possibly to the news media.

JMO, there would need to be a new investigation by an independent LE agency. Even then, new investigators would be left with mostly the same old evidence.

ETA: A scenario I considered from early in SGs sad story was that she was that after last being seen banging on the Dorris of neighbors homes in Oak Beach, she went into someone’s home, found herself in danger and needed to escape again. She may have been chased from a location while fully or partially undressed, running into the marsh where she was killed. The killer or others who retrieved her discarded clothing and belongings and disposed of them back in the marsh. JMO

Agreed...
And when it came out a hole was drilled in her neck, well she never stood a chance that night...

 

[FergusMcDuck]

Agreed...
And when it came out a hole was drilled in her neck, well she never stood a chance that night...

None of the autopsies say she had a hole drilled on her neck.

 

[Warwick7]

None of the autopsies say she had a hole drilled on her neck.

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Edit: There are many more links. But each one of these links talk about how a hole is drilled in her neck.

 

[Mr.Dandy]

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Edit: There are many more links. But each one of these links talk about how a hole is drilled in her neck.

wtf?

 

[Warwick7]

wtf?

I know right?!

 

[DS2021]

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Edit: There are many more links. But each one of these links talk about how a hole is drilled in her neck.

Each of those are just repeating John Rays statement.

 

[Warwick7]

Each of those are just repeating John Rays statement.

It's all msm. That's what counts.