Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

No doubt in my mind, either, she was murdered. And jmo, RH is at the center of it.
Did RH have acutal accomplices? If RH had help, how much "knowledge" did this "help" have??

They're good questions, especially in the light of what we know about Burke and SCPD in this period.


Have said from the beginning and I'll say to whatever end there is to this... that I think SG was an RH victim. I really and truly do believe she was. But a premature one. I think something happened that night, jmo, that forced RH's hand-- and I think it was that 911 call.
I think along the same lines that you do. RH was the reason she was so terrified.

actual accomplices? I believe less, to not-at-all, that he had accomplices with the murders. That seems a very solitary act. Was he aware of Burke and the SCPD looking the other way? I'd say definitely. Was he part of a group of "ugly underbelly of humanity" types? Probably, in my opinion. I'd think they may have been aware of each other's interests without being privy to their actual acts. I doubt that many or any of them would go to the lengths RH would.

I suspect the 911 call did change RH's life. For the first time, I'm wondering if possibly she was killed to prevent her testifying and therefore RH is not guilty of this one.

Regardless of whether SG was a victim of RH or not, I suspect it was her 911 call and the aftermath that influenced him in keeping his actions on LI, and prob in Suffolk County because he knew law enforcement. Perhaps he didn't have enough contacts in LE in Manhattan to be comfortable with what might be happening in LE. But Suffolk County? It seems it was absolutely wide open for his type.
 
No doubt in my mind, either, she was murdered. And jmo, RH is at the center of it. Months mean nothing to RH. He's been plying his sick craft for decades. He's an attentive type of guy, very attentive to the details ("HK"). I'd say he takes his time when he needs to do so.

But who else, if anyone, may have been "in on" this? That's the million dollar question, and one JR is furiously pursuing. I have a lot of respect for JR, it's jmo. I don't think JR is pursuing "deep pockets." I think JR just really wants to know-- did anyone else know about this? Did RH have acutal accomplices? If RH had help, how much "knowledge" did this "help" have??

They're good questions, especially in the light of what we know about Burke and SCPD in this period.

Have said from the beginning and I'll say to whatever end there is to this... that I think SG was an RH victim. I really and truly do believe she was. But a premature one. I think something happened that night, jmo, that forced RH's hand-- and I think it was that 911 call.

And maybe I'm wrong, but it's interesting to me that wrong or right-- here we are, waiting for his trial. And we know he's killed others. Why not SG? Why not especailly SG?
"Deep pockets?" There are no deep-pocketed victims. The victims were engaged in a survival trade that people with deep pockets do not have to power through.

MOO
 
I think along the same lines that you do. RH was the reason she was so terrified.

actual accomplices? I believe less, to not-at-all, that he had accomplices with the murders. That seems a very solitary act. Was he aware of Burke and the SCPD looking the other way? I'd say definitely. Was he part of a group of "ugly underbelly of humanity" types? Probably, in my opinion. I'd think they may have been aware of each other's interests without being privy to their actual acts. I doubt that many or any of them would go to the lengths RH would.

I suspect the 911 call did change RH's life. For the first time, I'm wondering if possibly she was killed to prevent her testifying and therefore RH is not guilty of this one.

Regardless of whether SG was a victim of RH or not, I suspect it was her 911 call and the aftermath that influenced him in keeping his actions on LI, and prob in Suffolk County because he knew law enforcement. Perhaps he didn't have enough contacts in LE in Manhattan to be comfortable with what might be happening in LE. But Suffolk County? It seems it was absolutely wide open for his type.
I remember, long before Rex's arrest, there were already passionate discussions about the scope of LiSK crimes. Everyone attributed the GB4 to LISK. Shannan, tragically, has had many people and even officials deny she was murdered. Jessica Taylor & Valerie Mack and others attributed to the "Manorville Butcher" with much debate about whether that was a separate murder from LISK. Before Bitrolff was charged, it was assumed that Colleen, Rita and Sandra Costilla were all murdered by the same person- usually theorized to not be the same person as LISK.

But, for the people who assumed LISK murdered the GB4 and Shannan, there was a theory that Shannan caused LISK to change his phone policies. And I think it is a viable theory, still, given how Rex appears to abide by some twisted kind of TQM evolution evidenced by his 2000 HK document. Maureen was murdered first, and her phone pinged on LI. Melissa was murdered next, and her phone was used as sadistically as possible by the killer. Then, Shannan spent a half an hour on the phone with 911.

Then, if they were all killed by Rex, the phone rules changed, and the work territory went local. Meaghan and Amber were working on LI and left their phones behind. It does seem like a change Rex would make if Shannan's phone messed up "playtime."

I don't know if Rex was involved in Shannan's murder or not. One thing that tips the scale to yes for me is Karen V. It seems to me he harmed her or murdered her. She arrived to a "party" a completely different way from the GB4. This means to me she could not be ruled out because she had a driver, who also booked with Brewer directly. For one thing, I don't believe we "know" Melissa didn't have a driver that night. But even if it was different, we now know that LISK is pretty flexible and versatile.

But mostly, I'm inclined to think that, while Rex met Shannan months before her murder, someone else murdered her that night. Probably someone with similar criminal pastimes as Rex. Her murder may have been unintentional. It might be that "only" other, non-lethal crimes were planned. Or, the motivation could have been related to her upcoming court date.

MOO
 
Rex talks about "hunting"
He has been seen in wooded areas
he hides bodies in wooded areas
he has been seen in cammo outdoor clothing and hunting gear
he has been seen with a revolver ( if you believe it)
he goes over to Gilgo beach to watch his victims rot.
he has been seen with Shannan before ( if you believe it)
Asa was not on vacation the night Shannan died,

she could have been set up to go over there and could not find the party she booked and Brewer wouldn't let her back in or didn't want to...and Rex was hunting her down with a nice big reedy area to hide in . I think he chased her into the reeds and killed her there where they were hidden from view. Probably too hard to move her afterward. He's the boogie man and I think she was set up.

mOO

ADDING..no one really knows all the locations the victims were murdered in. mOO

I'd like to emphasize your excellent point about the location of the murders. We dont know how long the victims were alive before being killed, and, once killed, we dont know know if they went directly from where they were killed to where they were found. I am really curious if the bodies hold evidence of being moved well after death.

I have always wondered about those awful words spoken to her teen sister- about watching her rot. :(

He's a monster, alleged behaviors are shown to be true, of course. It's said a lot, but I don't think it ever feels exaggerated.

MOO
 
okay if it's Pak, how was he prepared to chase Shannan into the reeds? where was his car at this time? how did he evade police? was Pak covered with scratches or anything else that could prove he killed Shannan? NO! he doesn't even know his way around in that swamp...but Rex does..that's his area of expertise. mOO
 
No doubt in my mind, either, she was murdered. And jmo, RH is at the center of it. Months mean nothing to RH. He's been plying his sick craft for decades. He's an attentive type of guy, very attentive to the details ("HK"). I'd say he takes his time when he needs to do so.

But who else, if anyone, may have been "in on" this? That's the million dollar question, and one JR is furiously pursuing. I have a lot of respect for JR, it's jmo. I don't think JR is pursuing "deep pockets." I think JR just really wants to know-- did anyone else know about this? Did RH have acutal accomplices? If RH had help, how much "knowledge" did this "help" have??

They're good questions, especially in the light of what we know about Burke and SCPD in this period.

Have said from the beginning and I'll say to whatever end there is to this... that I think SG was an RH victim. I really and truly do believe she was. But a premature one. I think something happened that night, jmo, that forced RH's hand-- and I think it was that 911 call.

And maybe I'm wrong, but it's interesting to me that wrong or right-- here we are, waiting for his trial. And we know he's killed others. Why not SG? Why not especailly SG?
I agree that she was murdered too. Ec Cheif Burke was a real freak. It's hard not for me to think that he had nothing to do it with it. I believe Shannan new about the sex parties and the Cheif being there. I wonder what all she was going to testify to. He is back in prison for exposing himself in a public park.
I can't not rule out Burke in Shannans killing and neither could her late mother. Moo
 
okay if it's Pak, how was he prepared to chase Shannan into the reeds? where was his car at this time? how did he evade police? was Pak covered with scratches or anything else that could prove he killed Shannan? NO! he doesn't even know his way around in that swamp...but Rex does..that's his area of expertise. mOO
Evading the police must have been the easiest task. They weren’t very perceptive at the time.

This is my reasoning:

1 RH is a sadistic sociopath if the evidence is to be believed.
2. Pak is probably just a sociopath. IMO - I judge this by his ease of lying.

The easiest way to get to the place Shannan was found is to stop on the parkway and force her into the bush those few meters from the road and kill her on the spot.

Pak was the one driving around looking for her. Well, I think he might have found her a few minutes after Shannan was last seen by anyone than but her killer.

Pak was there. He has a record of trafficking.

IMHOO
 
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Rex talks about "hunting"
He has been seen in wooded areas
he hides bodies in wooded areas
he has been seen in cammo outdoor clothing and hunting gear
he has been seen with a revolver ( if you believe it)
he goes over to Gilgo beach to watch his victims rot.
he has been seen with Shannan before ( if you believe it)
Asa was not on vacation the night Shannan died,

she could have been set up to go over there and could not find the party she booked and Brewer wouldn't let her back in or didn't want to...and Rex was hunting her down with a nice big reedy area to hide in . I think he chased her into the reeds and killed her there where they were hidden from view. Probably too hard to move her afterward. He's the boogie man and I think she was set up.

mOO

ADDING..no one really knows all the locations the victims were murdered in. mOO
I think that this article by Court TV backs up a lot of what you are saying. Swinger parties at RH house . Cops attending. Etc.
 
Interesting that RH attorney wants FBI records on Burke. Partners in crime?
 
"Deep pockets?" There are no deep-pocketed victims. The victims were engaged in a survival trade that people with deep pockets do not have to power through.

MOO
No, no sorry. for any confusion "Deep pockets" is a term I've heard used for parties who attorneys can pursue for compensation of some kind, in all kinds of cases. Negligence, wrongful death, malpractice, what have you. I've heard that when one pursues "deep pockets," one goes after some culpable party with money. And a lot of times this makes sense because attorneys want to be paid, and their fee comes out of settlement, I think.

JR is obviously not looking to sue any victims. But he might sue if he could find a wider conspiracy of perps and accomplices. (JMO, I would think, like if SCPD can be shown to have been culpable in some way, for example.) And my point was, JR seems to be looking for justice, not "deep pockets."

And I believe that.
 
okay if it's Pak, how was he prepared to chase Shannan into the reeds? where was his car at this time? how did he evade police? was Pak covered with scratches or anything else that could prove he killed Shannan? NO! he doesn't even know his way around in that swamp...but Rex does..that's his area of expertise. mOO
If Pak caught up to Shannan before she entered the marsh, Pak would not have to chase her in the reeds, and would not have scratches on his body. Pak or someone else could have disposed body later in the marsh after she was dead. Pak had his car with him as he had been following Shannan in Oak Beach. He evaded the SCPD by leaving Oak Beach before the officer arrived.
 
Interesting that RH attorney wants FBI records on Burke. Partners in crime?
Or: normalizing misogyny and murder.

Maybe his defense is everyone did it and nobody was trying to stop it.

MOO
 
No, no sorry. for any confusion "Deep pockets" is a term I've heard used for parties who attorneys can pursue for compensation of some kind, in all kinds of cases. Negligence, wrongful death, malpractice, what have you. I've heard that when one pursues "deep pockets," one goes after some culpable party with money. And a lot of times this makes sense because attorneys want to be paid, and their fee comes out of settlement, I think.

JR is obviously not looking to sue any victims. But he might sue if he could find a wider conspiracy of perps and accomplices. (JMO, I would think, like if SCPD can be shown to have been culpable in some way, for example.) And my point was, JR seems to be looking for justice, not "deep pockets."

And I believe that.
Oh, I intended to emphasize your great comment, not argue. I never thought you thought Ray was a profiteer. I think the people who believe that don't hear how ridiculous they sound.

Sorry I did not mean to have you defend yourself!

MOO
 

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