Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[White_Rabbit]

Great post- we need to revisit the timelines.

And, I think it's certain that Hackett had some interaction with Shannan, based on his bizarre behavior with her mother.

It's not impossible that Shannan met/was treated by Hackett before she dialed 911. She could have encountered him on the supposed CVS run, for example. It is not impossible that Hackett spooked her on their first encounter, and Shannan felt or knew he was outside waiting to "treat" her again when she refused to leave Brewer's house.

She was very smart to call 911. It was her best move, IMO.

MOO

I agree. Unless Pak or Hackett comes forward with new information, this may end up like the Lizzie Borden case, plenty of circumstantial evidence but no definitive proof. Personally, I don’t think this was RH or the work of a hitman tied to a larger criminal network. In my opinion, it may have been an accident involving someone (PH) who meant to help but acted recklessly, with the situation tragically worsening when another person (MP) allegedly abandoned an unresponsive, vulnerable woman out of fear of legal or criminal consequences. Sadly, without a confession or solid evidence, I feel it will remain unresolved.

 

[Ruminations]

I agree. Unless Pak or Hackett comes forward with new information, this may end up like the Lizzie Borden case, plenty of circumstantial evidence but no definitive proof. Personally, I don’t think this was RH or the work of a hitman tied to a larger criminal network. In my opinion, it may have been an accident involving someone (PH) who meant to help but acted recklessly, with the situation tragically worsening when another person (MP) allegedly abandoned an unresponsive, vulnerable woman out of fear of legal or criminal consequences. Sadly, without a confession or solid evidence, I feel it will remain unresolved.

Agree.

Someone was trying to harm Shannan, without a doubt. But it could be her death or its timing was an accident. It could even be that a relatively benevolent actor in the drama took the ultimate fatal action.

The frustration is- someone or some two, three, four or more know a lot more than they have said.

MOO

 

[White_Rabbit]

Agree.

Someone was trying to harm Shannan, without a doubt. But it could be her death or its timing was an accident. It could even be that a relatively benevolent actor in the drama took the ultimate fatal action.

The frustration is- someone or some two, three, four or more know a lot more than they have said.

MOO

I think the two most important people here are Hackett and Pak. Even though they’ve both given depositions under oath, there’s still no way to determine which parts, if any, are the full truth.

 

[lohrtabitha]

adding here, I also know that bi polar people can really go crazy..they can go totally off the rails..paranoid, violent, suicidal, ranting, raving, removing clothing, threatening..it is true...but honestly if you listen to her call..you are not hearing the rapid fire urgency of mania.

it's too bad that it colors the situation. mOO

AGREED. Also Shannan was very smart. Her call to me sounded very collected. I'm sure do to the nature of her job, she had to be put in scary situations before and used her wits to get out of them.

 

[lohrtabitha]

Agree.

Someone was trying to harm Shannan, without a doubt. But it could be her death or its timing was an accident. It could even be that a relatively benevolent actor in the drama took the ultimate fatal action.

The frustration is- someone or some two, three, four or more know a lot more than they have said.

MOO

Who was she going to testify for in her court case coming up? Why am I thinking it was something to do with police corruption? I cant help but feel that James Burke was somehow involved. Moo

 

[White_Rabbit]

Who was she going to testify for in her court case coming up? Why am I thinking it was something to do with police corruption? I cant help but feel that James Burke was somehow involved. Moo

I’ve never seen any credible evidence that Shannan was scheduled to testify in a court case before she went missing. Nothing in the public record or her family’s statements supports that she was about to testify about police corruption or anything else. Most of the legal actions connected to her were after her disappearance, when her family was fighting the “accidental drowning” ruling and seeking release of the 911 tapes. I know the Burke theory gets mentioned in a lot of discussions, but it doesn’t seem tied to any upcoming testimony on her part, nor does account for the circumstances surrounding Hackett and Pak that night.

 

[lohrtabitha]

I’ve never seen any credible evidence that Shannan was scheduled to testify in a court case before she went missing. Nothing in the public record or her family’s statements supports that she was about to testify about police corruption or anything else. Most of the legal actions connected to her were after her disappearance, when her family was fighting the “accidental drowning” ruling and seeking release of the 911 tapes. I know the Burke theory gets mentioned in a lot of discussions, but it doesn’t seem tied to any upcoming testimony on her part, nor does account for the circumstances surrounding Hackett and Pak that night.

I believe it was said in one of the documentaries about her and her mother said something about it. It has been posted about her before. I will have to search.

 

[Betty P]

Just one other detail I'm not sure about:

If Shannan met up with Hackett, who administered a drug, then she left with Pak, why didn't either one of them say so?

Why did Hackett lie for Pak and say he didn't know what happened to her. Did Pak and Hackett both collaborate and decide to come up with a story that left both of them innocent?

 

[White_Rabbit]

Just one other detail I'm not sure about:

If Shannan met up with Hackett, who administered a drug, then she left with Pak, why didn't either one of them say so?

Why did Hackett lie for Pak and say he didn't know what happened to her. Did Pak and Hackett both collaborate and decide to come up with a story that left both of them innocent?

If that scenario happened, admitting it would have opened them up to serious criminal charges and civil liability. Any admission of administering a drug or abandoning her could have meant prison, lawsuits, or both. Hackett did eventually have to defend himself in court against the Gilbert family’s wrongful death lawsuit, which was dismissed, but the fact it was filed shows how high the legal stakes were.

 

[Ruminations]

I’ve never seen any credible evidence that Shannan was scheduled to testify in a court case before she went missing. Nothing in the public record or her family’s statements supports that she was about to testify about police corruption or anything else. Most of the legal actions connected to her were after her disappearance, when her family was fighting the “accidental drowning” ruling and seeking release of the 911 tapes. I know the Burke theory gets mentioned in a lot of discussions, but it doesn’t seem tied to any upcoming testimony on her part, nor does account for the circumstances surrounding Hackett and Pak that night.

She was charged and a codefendant in a trafficking case. As a defendant, she never could be compelled to testify. The burden of proof was on the state of NJ. She could have been compelled to appear for proceedings, and did miss a court date shortly after she went missing.

She always could have chosen to testify. I have also never seen proof that she planned to attempt to go State witness. But being that she was likely a smaller fish, as they say, than her codefendant, it is not a crazy theory at all that she was murdered because of that possibility.

It's never been proven or even asserted what her legal plans were. But that she was a co-defendant is very real.


The article below is very dated and contains the police statements that Shannan was irrational on the 911 call, which we now know is not true. But it mentions her pending charges.

18-month-old mystery over Shannan Gilbert's disappearance may be over; reaction in Hudson

Police had resumed their search last week after studying images of clothing taken by an FBI plane that flew over and photographed the area

www.nj.com

It is a viable theory that Shannan was set up by her codefendant. Pak, like Shannan, was employed by the bigger fish. I think it's possible that Shannan was harmed for this reason, and not just because murdering is what serial killers do.

MOO


Edit: Shannan's charges were not minor prostitution charges. They were serious laundering and trafficking charges right along as a co defendant with Joseph Ruis. But it is a reasonable theory that prosecutors would have been eager to drop the bigger charges for her if she told what she knew about Joseph Ruis.

 

[Ruminations]

Who was she going to testify for in her court case coming up? Why am I thinking it was something to do with police corruption? I cant help but feel that James Burke was somehow involved. Moo

Yes. She was a criminal defendant for prostitution. Her employer was in bigger trouble for trafficking drugs and laundering money.

She wasn't going to testify about police corruption.

There is a weird connection with her criminal case and Suffolk county, but I don't think Shannan would have even known about it. And it might be irrelevant and a coincidence. Apparently, Suffolk County was investigating the landlord of her codefendant Ruis for child sex abuse materials. That is super creepy, but it is possible (likely?) even Shannan's codefendant didn't know that.

MOO

Edit: Shannan's charges were very serious felonies, not just prostitution. She was charged with money laundering, prostitution, and drug trafficking. She faced years of incarceration. But, it is reasonable to speculate that she could have been being trafficked and used, and perhaps prosecutors wished she would testify in exchange for reduced charges.

 

[minazoe]

you don't kill your money maker, I think this would be frowned upon, and Shannan was making money for her driver or pimp.. and no you don't kill her over a bad John situation...and I don't think anyone ordered her dead over the trial..it doesn't seem likely..even if she is a little crazy...so are many of these women who work in that world.., so why would Pak kill Shannen?...drive her all the way out there and kill her and even think he could get away with it...just seems unlikely to me.

now did he get fed up and just take off? yes he did...and that is weird...but she wouldn't go with him.

some day we are going to figure it all out. mOO

 

[White_Rabbit]

She was charged and a codefendant in a trafficking case. As a defendant, she never could be compelled to testify. The burden of proof was on the state of NJ. She could have been compelled to appear for proceedings, and did miss a court date shortly after she went missing.

She always could have chosen to testify. I have also never seen proof that she planned to attempt to go State witness. But being that she was likely a smaller fish, as they say, than her codefendant, it is not a crazy theory at all that she was murdered because of that possibility.

It's never been proven or even asserted what her legal plans were. But that she was a co-defendant is very real.


The article below is very dated and contains the police statements that Shannan was irrational on the 911 call, which we now know is not true. But it mentions her pending charges.

18-month-old mystery over Shannan Gilbert's disappearance may be over; reaction in Hudson

Police had resumed their search last week after studying images of clothing taken by an FBI plane that flew over and photographed the area

www.nj.com

It is a viable theory that Shannan was set up by her codefendant. Pak, like Shannan, was employed by the bigger fish. I think it's possible that Shannan was harmed for this reason, and not just because murdering is what serial killers do.

MOO

Thank you for your post and for sharing the article, it definitely substantiates that Shannan was facing criminal proceedings as a co-defendant at the time. That certainly makes the “hit” theory a possibility, and I can understand why some people find it compelling.

That said, when I look at the timeline and the events of that night, what seems more consistent with the known facts is the possibility of inappropriate medical involvement on Hackett’s part, followed by negligence and abandonment on Pak’s part.

Shannan placed a prolonged 911 call in clear distress. Hackett later acknowledged to Mari Gilbert that Shannan had been at his home, and he told her that she left with her driver. If that statement is accurate, then Pak may have been the last person to see her. But we can’t know that with certainty, because Hackett’s claim is the only account of her leaving with Pak, and neither man’s version of events has ever been verified in full.

For me, that makes the inappropriate medical involvement followed by abandonment theory more convincing than the idea of a pre-planned “hit.” While outside players can’t be ruled out entirely, the circumstantial evidence that does exist ties most directly to what happened in those final hours involving Hackett and Pak, whether through poor judgment, reckless decisions, or failing to assist someone in obvious crisis.

 

[fred&edna]

Yes. She was a criminal defendant for prostitution. Her employer was in bigger trouble for trafficking drugs and laundering money.

She wasn't going to testify about police corruption.

There is a weird connection with her criminal case and Suffolk county, but I don't think Shannan would have even known about it. And it might be irrelevant and a coincidence. Apparently, Suffolk County was investigating the landlord of her codefendant Ruis for child sex abuse materials. That is super creepy, but it is possible (likely?) even Shannan's codefendant didn't know that.

MOO

Edit: Shannan's charges were very serious felonies, not just prostitution. She was charged with money laundering, prostitution, and drug trafficking. She faced years of incarceration. But, it is reasonable to speculate that she could have been being trafficked and used, and perhaps prosecutors wished she would testify in exchange for reduced charges.

im so glad you posted the relevant info about shannan being a codefendant. iirc... her 'employer' served time in prison, had to forfeit quite a bit of money/assets. after release from prison he traveled to california, then returned east and ended up being charged with some other/separate criminal acts.

am i remembering correctly that diaz - shannan's boyfriend - also worked for that same 'employer' at some point.

jmo

 

[Ruminations]

Thank you for your post and for sharing the article, it definitely substantiates that Shannan was facing criminal proceedings as a co-defendant at the time. That certainly makes the “hit” theory a possibility, and I can understand why some people find it compelling.

That said, when I look at the timeline and the events of that night, what seems more consistent with the known facts is the possibility of inappropriate medical involvement on Hackett’s part, followed by negligence and abandonment on Pak’s part.

Shannan placed a prolonged 911 call in clear distress. Hackett later acknowledged to Mari Gilbert that Shannan had been at his home, and he told her that she left with her driver. If that statement is accurate, then Pak may have been the last person to see her. But we can’t know that with certainty, because Hackett’s claim is the only account of her leaving with Pak, and neither man’s version of events has ever been verified in full.

For me, that makes the inappropriate medical involvement followed by abandonment theory more convincing than the idea of a pre-planned “hit.” While outside players can’t be ruled out entirely, the circumstantial evidence that does exist ties most directly to what happened in those final hours involving Hackett and Pak, whether through poor judgment, reckless decisions, or failing to assist someone in obvious crisis.

The whole Hackett thing really does make this case stranger.

I think there was a plan to harm Shannan in some way. Pak and Brewer communicated to arrange bringing Shannan to Brewers place, and the vibe I get from the 911 call was that Brewer was hired for some role that he had already fulfilled and he was not planning unpaid overtime. I feel (and it's no more than a feeling) that he knew he was a pretext to get Shannan to Oak Beach, and he suspected but did not care that someone was going to something to her later. Her gig that evening was contrived.

Shannan herself said she was set up by Pak. He was part of "this" (what did she mean by "this"?) all along, she said.

I dont think the night went as planned. But I think something was planned in advance.

Maybe Shannan arranged to go out to the mysterious CVS run just to be seen in the area. If she hadn't called 911, would anyone had placed her in Oak Beach?

I agree if the plan was a clean hit, that plan was scrapped during the 911 call.

On the serial killer theory, it does appear Rex knew her and had reason to be angry with her. We know at least one if his victims was in a similar situation (Amber). We know Rex appeared public enough swinging plus with Karen Vergata. We know Rex liked hunting people down- even employees as a "joke."


MOO

 

[Soulmagent]

The whole Hackett thing really does make this case stranger.

I think there was a plan to harm Shannan in some way. Pak and Brewer communicated to arrange bringing Shannan to Brewers place, and the vibe I get from the 911 call was that Brewer was hired for some role that he had already fulfilled and he was not planning unpaid overtime. I feel (and it's no more than a feeling) that he knew he was a pretext to get Shannan to Oak Beach, and he suspected but did not care that someone was going to something to her later. Her gig that evening was contrived.

Shannan herself said she was set up by Pak. He was part of "this" (what did she mean by "this"?) all along, she said.

I dont think the night went as planned. But I think something was planned in advance.

Maybe Shannan arranged to go out to the mysterious CVS run just to be seen in the area. If she hadn't called 911, would anyone had placed her in Oak Beach?

I agree if the plan was a clean hit, that plan was scrapped during the 911 call.

On the serial killer theory, it does appear Rex knew her and had reason to be angry with her. We know at least one if his victims was in a similar situation (Amber). We know Rex appeared public enough swinging plus with Karen Vergata. We know Rex liked hunting people down- even employees as a "joke."


MOO

How fun for him ,if he was around that night for him to hunt Shannon down in the marsh.
Shannon sister got those calls , as did Rex's victims. How does it all fit? It has to somehow.
Also Manorville and those dogs.. and JT's legs.
I dont think Rex's arrest has really answered all of the important questions .

 

[WINDSOR]

you don't kill your money maker, I think this would be frowned upon, and Shannan was making money for her driver or pimp.. and no you don't kill her over a bad John situation...and I don't think anyone ordered her dead over the trial..it doesn't seem likely..even if she is a little crazy...so are many of these women who work in that world.., so why would Pak kill Shannen?...drive her all the way out there and kill her and even think he could get away with it...just seems unlikely to me.

now did he get fed up and just take off? yes he did...and that is weird...but she wouldn't go with him.

some day we are going to figure it all out. mOO

Sex workers are replaceable items as far as pimps are concerned. They are always more girls to replace a problematic one. I am not saying that Shannan's death was a deliberate planned murder by her pimp/driver. But have no illusions about a pimp's loyalty to any of his workers.

 

[lohrtabitha]

Yes. She was a criminal defendant for prostitution. Her employer was in bigger trouble for trafficking drugs and laundering money.

She wasn't going to testify about police corruption.

There is a weird connection with her criminal case and Suffolk county, but I don't think Shannan would have even known about it. And it might be irrelevant and a coincidence. Apparently, Suffolk County was investigating the landlord of her codefendant Ruis for child sex abuse materials. That is super creepy, but it is possible (likely?) even Shannan's codefendant didn't know that.

MOO

Edit: Shannan's charges were very serious felonies, not just prostitution. She was charged with money laundering, prostitution, and drug trafficking. She faced years of incarceration. But, it is reasonable to speculate that she could have been being trafficked and used, and perhaps prosecutors wished she would testify in exchange for reduced charges.

Thank you for helping me out with this and sharing it. I knew I had heard it or read it. You rock!!! And since it didn't involve police corruption maybe Burke and his team weren't directly involved with her death. That is awful about the landlord. Do you think her employer was Paks employer too? Maybe this is the basis for someone wanting her dead? Super scary world we live in.

 

[Ruminations]

Thank you for helping me out with this and sharing it. I knew I had heard it or read it. You rock!!! And since it didn't involve police corruption maybe Burke and his team weren't directly involved with her death. That is awful about the landlord. Do you think her employer was Paks employer too? Maybe this is the basis for someone wanting her dead? Super scary world we live in.

Yes- Pak, Shannan and Alex (Shannan's bf) all worked for lace party girls. The owner, Joseph Ruis, had multiple businesses. Lace party girls was escort services. Other businesses seemed to be fronts for laundering money. I don't recall the details, but the indictment is out there, public information. I recall there was some restaurant or catering business that had insanely unrealistic transactions on the books, making it appear it was about laundering cash rather than delivering food.

I think Burke's illegal partying/trafficking life was probably tangentially related. There seemed to be multiple parties interested in keeping Suffolk corrupt. Maybe they vaguely knew one another and crossed paths at parties and bars- or maybe they did know in detail what one another did.

It's frustrating that we just don't know.

MOO

 

[lohrtabitha]

Yes- Pak, Shannan and Alex (Shannan's bf) all worked for lace party girls. The owner, Joseph Ruis, had multiple businesses. Lace party girls was escort services. Other businesses seemed to be fronts for laundering money. I don't recall the details, but the indictment is out there, public information. I recall there was some restaurant or catering business that had insanely unrealistic transactions on the books, making it appear it was about laundering cash rather than delivering food.

I think Burke's illegal partying/trafficking life was probably tangentially related. There seemed to be multiple parties interested in keeping Suffolk corrupt. Maybe they vaguely knew one another and crossed paths at parties and bars- or maybe they did know in detail what one another did.

It's frustrating that we just don't know.

MOO

Yes. I agree with you. A lot of shady busy going on in that county. Its the big reason why Burke wanted to keep the FBI out. I dont think we will ever know all the nefarious activity there. I doubt Burke or Rex will ever spill the tea.