Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[susan1122]

I don't know what Truthspider thinks, so I can only speak my own opinion. No, the LISK hasn't stopped. Somewhere he is building a new trophy garden and it is in LI, probably near to the sea. Which doesn't mean, he wouldn't kill elsewhere too. But the East Coast is important to him. As I mentioned in my profile, he grew probably up in NYC, his view on the world as much as his hate and rage, both was built there. And since Media and LE did everything to dismiss every question about where his hunting ground actually is, I would assume, he still feels very safe and comfortable in the area between Hell's Kitchen and the Port Authority, the hour hotels in 46th and 47th and the clubs not too far from Madison Square Garden. And why should he worry? Everyone has bought his "drunk white dude show", so nobody looks twice at him, probably not even once.
We have the 28th of May. He is back since about the 15th. Probably, he has set his eyes already set his eyes on a new target, but not attacked yet. Chances are, in the next seven weeks, another prostitute, most likely a Craigslist escort or someone placing ads at another internet service of that kind, will disappear. And chances are, after it happens and when her family reports her missing, somewhere at a police station, someone will put a stamp on that report and file it. Just another prostitute. In the meantime, LISK will rape her, kill her, wrap her and put her in his truck or SUV. He will wait till about midnight and then drive from NYC to the Islands. He will pass the traffic cam on Jonas Beach Expressway, he will pass one on the big circle to Ocean Parkway, since he knows, the police wouldn't even look there for a truck or SUV driven by an African-American on those tapes. And then, somewhere between midnight and 3 am, depending how many he has already stashed away there he wants to revisit, he will add her to his trophy collection. He will feels the wind from the sea, he will hear the surf, like a little voice from the universe itself. He will smell the familiar smells from his youth, but with the difference, back then ha was a little black boy, now he is, in his mind, the invincible master, who teaches the lessons. Which is the reason, he probably started his new trophy yards so near to the sites, the GB4 were found ... he knows, LE considers that area as searched, that they won't return to take them again from him.

So well, that is my opinion, what is about to happen.

Peter

Hi Peter, By "drunk white dude show" did you mean you think LISK is white or black (which you wrote later). Sorry, I have missed a lot and am trying to catch up.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Hi Peter, By "drunk white dude show" did you mean you think LISK is white or black (which you wrote later). Sorry, I have missed a lot and am trying to catch up.

I think,
- due to the victimology without taste pattern
- due to parts of his focus in the phone calls
- due to his need to play a drunk white dude while not being drunk
- due to the drive-by revisiting site
- die to the phone call to the pimp
he is an African-American and as type of SK rather in the mission-driven typology than in the usual sexual psychopath drawer.

Peter

 

[susan1122]

I think,
- due to the victimology without taste pattern
- due to parts of his focus in the phone calls
- due to his need to play a drunk white dude while not being drunk
- due to the drive-by revisiting site
- die to the phone call to the pimp
he is an African-American and as type of SK rather in the mission-driven typology than in the usual sexual psychopath drawer.

Peter

Are you looking at Manorville, too....or just the GB4. Again, sorry if you have already clarified this. *nevermind* just saw your post about Manorville being white.

P.s. I agree that an African-American SK could practically hide in plain sight in this case, because most people are looking for a white dude.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Are you looking at Manorville, too....or just the GB4. Again, sorry if you have already clarified this.

P.s. I agree that an African-American SK could practically hide in plain sight in this case, because most people are looking for a white dude.

Right now, I'm more looking for the LISK (GB4)
MANORVILLE or MTK as I have him in my files is maybe a team, there is some strange dynamic in it over time. But since I have not enough details, it's hard to say.
Right now, I would guess, Manorville consists of a senior partner and a junior partner or kind of disciple. The senior partner is
- Caucasian
- owns a house in a triangular geographic position to the locations in Manorville and LI, so somewhere on LI's mainland
- has anatomic but not necessarily medical skills.
- is between 40 an 50 years
- wears cotton shirts in the summer
- has no siblings
- is probably a little smaller than 6ft (5'10"/5'11")
- appears probably on boards like WS or other true crime oriented boards as member, especially with join dates between Dec 2010 and Mar 2011 (which sucks, because I joined at the same time :floorlaugh Keep in mind, that can be ANY true crime board, not necessarily WS! Boards like the LongIslandSerialKiller board would probably appeal more to him since they are in general "louder" in their style and he has there more opportunities to slander "suspects" to distract from LISK as much from himself.
- if this guy isn't just totally out of the usual traditions of Torso-Killers, he would feel not too friendly about LISK and would consider him as someone, he would like to find and include him in his trophy collection. Which is the main reason, he likes to blur LISK's traces: Because he is afraid someone else gets the guy before he can.
- he is educated and intelligent, but not an evil genius or something. But he is definitively organized.
- His psychopathology is built around two aspects: Pain and domination. In this, he is as near to a pure sadistic psychopath as he can be, but he adds to that paraphilia, like necrophilia, evt. cannibalism in a moderate ritualized form and definitive bondage of the heavy kind
- He also owns a car, probably something relative unobtrusive like a midsize sedan or one of those "mini-stationwagons". Less likely, but also possiuble would be a mini-van.
- This kind of offender normally has the ability to long term relationships. He was married and is probably still.
- In the regular world, he would appear polite, intelligent and pretty good in his job, whatever this may is. Only occasionally, especially when it comes to professional subjects, one would see some signs of anger if he feels his professional opinion isn't enough respected.

Well, and then there is the junior:
- he was originally an intended victim, but the senior didn't kill him nor did he attack him.
- the junior is well aware of the danger the senior poses. But that is part of the attraction, he tries to learn to be dangerous from the senior. He also tries to learn self-esteem from him.
- also the junior would be Caucasian
- he would have a regular job and would be reliable in it.

Well, that is what I have about Manorville. Not quite a complete profile yet and in some aspects it needs more details which I can determine only with more information and as of yet, SFPD still sits and breeds on those details. So, with more information, all this could change still entirely. Keep that in mind and treat what I wrote here as mere preliminary.

Peter

 

[Redbird]

I think,
- due to the victimology without taste pattern
- due to parts of his focus in the phone calls
- due to his need to play a drunk white dude while not being drunk
- due to the drive-by revisiting site
- die to the phone call to the pimp
he is an African-American and as type of SK rather in the mission-driven typology than in the usual sexual psychopath drawer.

Peter

With all due respect, I have never read anything to lead me to believe he has a need to play a drunk white dude while not being drunk. I believe he WAS a white drunk dude. What would you mean by his phone call to the pimp proving he (the SK) is black? I am assuming you are referring to Johnny Terry who refers to himself as Melissa Bartherlemy's boyfriend. Terry's use of the phrase describing the callers conversation "I know where you be at." indicates to me that Terry is probably black, since I have never heard a white person use that expression unless they were trying to "be black." Both he and Melissa's sister describe the caller as an older drunk white man. Do you think they would not be able to tell whether he was drunk or pretending to be drunk? Do you think they cannot recognize a black man's voice? I don't get it. I am commenting for newcomers who might be mislead by your statements to think that what you are saying are facts. I think a black man hanging out in Oak Beach and parking near the graveyard would be very conspicuous, especially considering the number of years this guy has been in action. JMO

 

[Redbird]

I think it is very hard to fake being drunk. Very few actors are able to play a drunk convincingly IMO.

 

[Samantha Spade]

Yeah. Carol burnett is the only one that comes to mind for me. But maybe she really WAS drunk!

 

[sean62185]

Well, it proves how wrong your profiling was, it doesn't say any about mine. So, feel free to declare your profile as wrong. But then, the place you looked at was a dump site for Manorville, not LISK. So, that would be anyway an entirely different discussion, because I think Manorville is a Caucasian, maybe even two of them?

I find the Manorville killer much more scary, and interesting than the LISK. The LISK seems like a mission driven strangler. They are a dime a dozen in the SK world. So there not much mystery to them, and what makes them tick.. imo.

Manorville on the other hand is a real monster, and one from my observation that we don't see very often in the SK world. SK's are the scariest things walking this world, but when you think of a torso killer, they seem to take things to a whole nother level, when it comes to violence they do to the victims and their extreme sadism.

I found your post interesting.. I havent seen you go into a detailed profile for Manorville like you have LISK, so I am interested in what you think of Manorville. Also I found it interesting that there could possibly be a tandom if I am reading into that comment correctly. Which makes manorville even more interesting. Torso killers are rare it seems, and a tandom of torso killers would be even more rare. What makes you think there could be two at work in the manorville cases?

 

[Peter Brendt]

With all due respect, I have never read anything to lead me to believe he has a need to play a drunk white dude while not being drunk. I believe he WAS a white drunk dude. What would you mean by his phone call to the pimp proving he (the SK) is black? I am assuming you are referring to Johnny Terry who refers to himself as Melissa Bartherlemy's boyfriend. Terry's use of the phrase describing the callers conversation "I know where you be at." indicates to me that Terry is probably black, since I have never heard a white person use that expression unless they were trying to "be black." Both he and Melissa's sister describe the caller as an older drunk white man. Do you think they would not be able to tell whether he was drunk or pretending to be drunk? Do you think they cannot recognize a black man's voice? I don't get it. I am commenting for newcomers who might be mislead by your statements to think that what you are saying are facts. I think a black man hanging out in Oak Beach and parking near the graveyard would be very conspicuous, especially considering the number of years this guy has been in action. JMO

Well, I agree with your statement, that you don't get it. So, for the umpteenth time:

- the few fragments of those phone calls which were given to the media indicate, everything, this man said was straight on the point for maximal pain. This was torture. But it had a second layer to it. Because it also expressed the disgust for Amanda. Why? Because Amanda is mixed ethnicity? So what you have is someone who can't be drunk that much as he pretended to do or he would have been less precise. Thus, the "drunk guy" is a show.
Now, what about the "drunk WHITE guy"? First thing, most even half-way educated African-Americans don't speak any kind of "bro" or "jive" or whatever you want to call it. So, if you leave your slightly racist imagination all African-Americans speak some kind of ghetto dialect aside, it's hard to distinguish a Caucasian or an African-American on the phone. The more if the person also plays drunk.
So, there is only one reason to play "white and drunk" on the phone. And that is, if the caller is in fact black and sober.

Now, lets look at the call to the person, the killer had to assume was her pimp. If he would be the usual sexual sadist psychopath 101 as you want to paint him, this call made no sense. Because it is impossible to torture a pimp psychologically that way. Pimps (or "boyfriends" supporting prostitution of their "girlfriends") have in general a pretty psychopathic mentality themselves. Comes with the territory. So, any regular sexual psychopath would have avoided to call the "boyfriend". LISK didn't. Ergo, he is not the regular lustmurderer sadist 101, regardless what you believe, he just isn't! So, what does that leave? Hedonistic types or mission driven types of SKs. But you can dismiss the hedonistic types from the start because there is no way to make any profit from all of this. So, that leaves us with mission-driven of some kind. A look on the victimology tells us, he killed four women, who LOOKED white. Which is the point, he picks by seeing. But otherwise, those four women have in appearance not much in common. That is a pretty typical victimology and if you would have a good handlibrary, you could look up the following names: Carlton Gary, Omar Thornton, Lemual Smith, Bernard Jackson ... just for the start.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Yeah. Carol burnett is the only one that comes to mind for me. But maybe she really WAS drunk!

Hard to play on a stage, but not impossible. And how hard exactly on a phone?

 

[Peter Brendt]

I find the Manorville killer much more scary, and interesting than the LISK. The LISK seems like a mission driven strangler. They are a dime a dozen in the SK world. So there not much mystery to them, and what makes them tick.. imo.

Manorville on the other hand is a real monster, and one from my observation that we don't see very often in the SK world. SK's are the scariest things walking this world, but when you think of a torso killer, they seem to take things to a whole nother level, when it comes to violence they do to the victims and their extreme sadism.

I found your post interesting.. I havent seen you go into a detailed profile for Manorville like you have LISK, so I am interested in what you think of Manorville. Also I found it interesting that there could possibly be a tandom if I am reading into that comment correctly. Which makes manorville even more interesting. Torso killers are rare it seems, and a tandom of torso killers would be even more rare. What makes you think there could be two at work in the manorville cases?

The dynamics. Compare the degree of organization and attention to details in the 90s and then in the 2000s. I tell you that much, there appears to be a pattern.

Peter

 

[sean62185]

The dynamics. Compare the degree of organization and attention to details in the 90s and then in the 2000s. I tell you that much, there appears to be a pattern.

Peter

Yeah, I started typing that out, got a call into work. Came back and posted and seen you had done a profile on him during that time. Good info thanks for that.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Yeah, I started typing that out, got a call into work. Came back and posted and seen you had done a profile on him during that time. Good info thanks for that.

Just don't consider it a fully mellowed profile yet. I have not enough information to be sure. So this is more on educated guess level.

Peter

 

[susan1122]

Yeah. Carol burnett is the only one that comes to mind for me. But maybe she really WAS drunk!

That was funny! Woody Harrelson was great in The Hunger Games......didn't overdo/over act it.

Peter, 3 of the 4 GB4 were very slight/small women. White and prostitutes.....so those are similarities. If he contacted them off Craigslist I think he had a type.....he saw a picture/read a description and had to take their word for it. Megan was the only woman who was not tiny. In the case of Amber, a least, it's possible they had met a couple times and she grew to trust him enough to leave her phone at home....my point being that she may have been his type. At any rate, This is addressing what you wrote about the women not having much in common appearance-wise.

 

[Peter Brendt]

That was funny! Woody Harrelson was great in The Hunger Games......didn't overdo/over act it.

Peter, 3 of the 4 GB4 were very slight/small women. White and prostitutes.....so those are similarities. If he contacted them off Craigslist I think he had a type.....he saw a picture/read a description and had to take their word for it. Megan was the only woman who was not tiny. In the case of Amber, a least, it's possible they had met a couple times and she grew to trust him enough to leave her phone at home....my point being that she may have been his type. At any rate, This is addressing what you wrote about the women not having much in common appearance-wise.

As I always say: Deeeetaaaaails!
3 out of four ...
That's exactly the point. If he would really select on Craigslist, it would be four out of four. Because he has there basically a big catalog, he can pick from. No need for compromises.

3 out of four also offered very normal sex while one offered femdom
Means, he followed not a special sexual taste. Masochists are an entirely clientele as the every day john as far as the selection process goes.

If you look at face shapes, hair colors, eye colors, the builds per se, you will get a lot of 2 out of threes and 3 out of threes but only two aspects with four out of four: Gender and ethnic appearance.

Aside of it, the police tried to find the johns who contacted them via Craigslist and on their cell phones. I don't think, they found all, but they found some. In one case it was a police officer, if I remember right. There are articles linked back there in this and other LISK threads. Since those contacts lead to different people, the homicidal John theory is also only a 2 out of four thing.

Peter

 

[susan1122]

As I always say: Deeeetaaaaails!
3 out of four ...
That's exactly the point. If he would really select on Craigslist, it would be four out of four. Because he has there basically a big catalog, he can pick from. No need for compromises.

3 out of four also offered very normal sex while one offered femdom
Means, he followed not a special sexual taste. Masochists are an entirely clientele as the every day john as far as the selection process goes.

If you look at face shapes, hair colors, eye colors, the builds per se, you will get a lot of 2 out of threes and 3 out of threes but only two aspects with four out of four: Gender and ethnic appearance.

Aside of it, the police tried to find the johns who contacted them via Craigslist and on their cell phones. I don't think, they found all, but they found some. In one case it was a police officer, if I remember right. There are articles linked back there in this and other LISK threads. Since those contacts lead to different people, the homicidal John theory is also only a 2 out of four thing.

Peter

Gender, ethnic appearance and they were prostitutes...so 3 things in common. I get your point, just considering....If Megan lied about her size do you think LISK would have killed her? If he really only wanted small woman maybe he wouldn't have....or he was angry. Or angrier than usual. If you don't think it was a john, is it someone in the prostitution business, in your opinion? I would think so, given how else would this person, john or not, meet these woman. They aren't that random (for example....any woman grabbed off the street/subway/walking home, etc).

 

[Peter Brendt]

Gender, ethnic appearance and they were prostitutes...so 3 things in common. I get your point, just considering....If Megan lied about her size do you think LISK would have killed her? If he really only wanted small woman maybe he wouldn't have....or he was angry. Or angrier than usual. If you don't think it was a john, is it someone in the prostitution business, in your opinion? I would think so, given how else would this person, john or not, meet these woman. They aren't that random (for example....any woman grabbed off the street/subway/walking home, etc).

Latest when he saw Megan, he would have known, she was too tall for his taste. So, if he would be fueled by a specific sexual taste for tiny women, he wouldn't have attacked but looked for another more fitting victim. However, there is no special fetish for tiny women, those SKs just slip away in the nubile bracket after the first few kills. This one didn't. Instead, he created his own little trophy garden available for drive-bys whenever he felt like it and was on the East Coast.
First thing about johns is, they are also a lot of other things. They can be bakers, like Robert Hanson was. Or truck drivers, like Volker Eckert. Or plant workers like Ridgway. The attraction, prostitutes have to SKs, lies in their availability. And if we would talk street corner type prostitutes, in the communicative setup that takes the burden of opening a communication from the SK. Only, and that is the so often overlooked fact in this case, with Craigslist escorts, it would be again the john, who has to make the first step. So Craigslist prostitutes per se would have a lower attraction for the garden variety sexual sadist SK. That's just another little difference in the profile that puts LISK in another category.
How would he meet them, if not as John? That's a good question. Especially, since it's pretty certain, the last johns of those four women were different guys, which in itself already dismisses the theory of a John contacting them via Craigslist.
But then, phone calls were made from Massaqutchwhatever (I don't get that name, sorry), from Times Square, from Madison Square Garden. But then, Maureen Brainard-Barnes made her last phone call from the bus terminal at the Manhattan Port Aithority. But then, Megan Waterman was oonly part time in LI, the other time, she was with her boyfriend living in an apartment in the Bronx. And so it goes on and on.
MW offered femdom. That means, she must have had at least contacts to the SM clubs at Hell's Kitchen and near Times Square. Those clubs are private after police tried to crack down that scene like twenty years ago. And Maureen had rented a room on 46th Street to meet johns. Amber Costello lived nearer to the Manhattan scene than to the islands of LI.
Put this together and you get a very discrete hunting ground, a comfort zone, between Hell's Kitchen and the Port Authority. There, the victims could be seen in nature. And for any kind of mission-driven SK as for any kind of sexual psychopath, the selection process starts with seeing. Those guys hunt with the eyes. And in the case of LISK, given his level of organization and his meticulousness, we can assume, he is a stalker type. The point, is, those four women all disappeared AFTER their last Johns, but at least in the case of Maureen, we know, she finished that business and went to the bus terminal. At this point, someone had robbed her, but she was unharmed. So her killer attacked later, AFTER her last client and as it looks to me, that is consistent with the other cases. Those women went out to meet a john. Some of those johns have been found by LE (even not all identified to the public) and been cleared. So ... they disappeared AFTER the last John. That indicates a stalker.

Peter

 

[Samantha Spade]

Mr. Brendt,
I hope this doesn't sound racist in any way, but at first I thought it was absurd that you thought the sk was a black man calling pretending he was a drunk white guy. Not for the drunk part, but because I kept hearing Arsenio Hall's impersonation of a white guy inside my head!

 

[Peter Brendt]

Mr. Brendt,
I hope this doesn't sound racist in any way, but at first I thought it was absurd that you thought the sk was a black man calling pretending he was a drunk white guy. Not for the drunk part, but because I kept hearing Arsenio Hall's impersonation of a white guy inside my head!

Arsenio Hall was awesome with that ... but then, he did it for fun. Part of it was, to make it recognizable as fun.

Peter

 

[Reannan]

I just want to jump in here and say that I am thankful that Peter, Truth, and all of the rest of you are still looking at this case. What Peter recently said, about the SK finding the victims AFTER they met their last John is very interesting to me. They were all working girls who advertised on-line, but we have not been able to locate him with the technology of today? WTF??? I mean really!! It makes no sense, except for someone who is virtually connected, but is functioning "off of the grid". How do you do that?