Well, it's not like Zellner has shown anyone any proof that there is actually anything on this CD that we don't know about yet. Just because Zellner says something, doesn't mean it's actually true. We should all know that by now
Post Conviction Brief
- Thread starter missy1974
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Well, it's not like Zellner has shown anyone any proof that there is actually anything on this CD that we don't know about yet. Just because Zellner says something, doesn't mean it's actually true. We should all know that by now
Well, it's not like Zellner has shown anyone any proof that there is actually anything on this CD that we don't know about yet. Just because Zellner says something, doesn't mean it's actually true. We should all know that by now
What has Zellner said that wasn’t true?
Well, it's not like Zellner has shown anyone any proof that there is actually anything on this CD that we don't know about yet. Just because Zellner says something, doesn't mean it's actually true. We should all know that by now
I think the fact that the CD has been sealed is a good indication that there are at least images that we have not seen yet, and probably don't want or need to see (1625 images of 14099 images were considered recovered
). I went back and looked at the motions to reconsider, I only found where Hunt lists the number of searches for sexual content and when, but couldn't find if he listed images and a number of them (I just skimmed the docs and couldn't find it, would be interested if it's listed somewhere and I missed it). I also don't see where we already "knew" that there were 2632 searches for the terms "blood, body, bondage, bullet, cement, DNA, fire, gas, gun, handcuff, journal, myspace, news, RAV, stab, throat, tires". That is a boatload of searches! I have been following this case for 2 1/2 years, it makes me wonder how many searches would come up on my computer with terms related to this case? 2632 seems excessive?! I do think that the timing of those searches are important. Searches after Brendan was arrested vs. before he was arrested would be interesting to know.
In case anyone didn't know... the State did respond and opposed the motion to supplement the record:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/States-Response-to-Correct-the-Record.pdf
And then KZ responded again:
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Response-to-Motion-to-Correct-the-Record.pdf
The State's argument was that it was never brought up in previous motions before the circuit court, which KZ responded with when/where the CD was in the motions. The State just changed their lawyers recently, wonder if they just didn't read all of it or what? but that was a pretty big mistake to say that it wasn't in the original motion or the motions to reconsider. JMO
Right now I'll have to rely on my memory, but perhaps I can look up some more tomorrow.
But i can remember Zellner claimed it is "undisputed" that Halbach had a printed copy of a day planner with her in her car. She also claims it is undisputed Hillegas had the day planner and then goes on to say Hillegas obtained the day planner from TH's car after she died.
Zellner does not deliver any evidence that this is undisputed, or even likely.
I remember she also claimed that Kratz said Bullet FL went in and out of TH's skull. However, he never said such a thing.
Then there are also the contradictions in two affidavits Steven signed for her.
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I think the fact that the CD has been sealed is a good indication that there are at least images that we have not seen yet, and probably don't want or need to see (1625 images of 14099 images were considered recovered
The defense had a complete copy of the hard drive of the Dassey family computer. This would include all the images.
Now there is this CD, which is a copy of something. Whatever is on the CD, is also somewhere else. Zellner does not demonstrate what was on the CD was not ever in the possession of Strang or Buting in whatever way or form. There is no mention of any comparison done to determine if there is anything on the CD that's not anywhere else.
It's just typical Zellner stuff again.
I don't know how many times I've searched for morbid stuff like "blood", "blood spatter", "spatter from cut", "cleaning blood" or whatever due to discussions with Avery supporters who would claim, for example, that the blood in the car looks planted. DNA, bullet, fire, gas, handcuff, RAV, tires stuff like that are common search terms I would guess for anyone who has an interest in this case, and that would include the Dasseys at that time. Have you never searched for those or similar words?
How many people use your computer? Do you have a Barb, Scott, Blaine, Bobby, Brian and Brendan all using it? Then there were websites back in the day such as rottentomatoes or whatever which only showed vulgar or morbid stuff and for some reason these websites were kinda popular even.
None of this actually matters as long as Zellner fails to establish a connection to the actual crime. Search terms do not connect Bobby to the murder. Heck, despite Zellner claiming otherwise, Bobby either can't be accounted for those searches or wasn't home alone as she claims. Iirc it was actually possible for Steven to have done almost all, if not all, searches on that computer. He knew about the stuff on it as well. Anyway, not saying he actually did those searches.
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Stay tuned. This hasn’teven started yet.
You know how this works. “We” don’t know the full truth......the general public that is, as I am sure there are those who know their own compartmentalized version of the truth.
See, the truth is you don’t know what Zellner knows or can prove. So saying she has not been speaking the truth is more wishful thinking than anything based on reality.
You are mistaken again my friend...“Typical Zellner stuff”......is routinely outsmarting corrupt prosecutors and exonerating innocent men and women. She does this quite frequently these days.
@ACJL If this is just a copy of something that is somewhere else, why do you suppose the State didn't argue that? If there is evidence that Strang and Buting had this information back then, why didn't the State just say that in their motion?
I agree that there is no comparison made between what was on that CD and what was on the DVD's that the defense did get back in 2006, there isn't a comparison from KZ or the State. The State could have easily said that it was information extracted from the DVD's, but they didn't, which would have been the easiest argument, no? As for comparison's and/or more in depth analysis of the CD, if it's added to the record, I expect to see it in whatever KZ files after this decision is made.
I did say in my post that the timing of the searches are important, and without knowing when the searches happened, I am just going to wait to see. I know that I have made some pretty disturbing searches, not with just this case lol I've been on websleuths for years and this isn't the only case I've followed ... I even used to be on other forums that no longer exist... we have a rule in my house... if something goofy happens to my husband, destroy the laptop hard drive haha
As for KZ making a connection to the crime, my understanding is that this information could have been used back in 2006 to meet the Denny standards in regards to Bobby Dassey, which if it had, would have allowed the defense to present a different theory to the jury, which could have resulted in reasonable doubt. KZ cites a case in her motion where the appellate Court agreed that the trial court had properly admitted evidence of sadomasochism and "snuff films" depicting torture and death scenes because the State theorized the defendant was sexually motivated to commit the murder. So it's along the same lines of motive in regards to Bobby... some of the searches that we already know about are pretty disturbing, I want to see what else is in there and when they happened, and see if they can determine who made them.
And I don't want to read that it's not relevant because according to Wiegert, it was. From a search warrant...
Your affiant believes that images of, torture, and death may be relevant as to issues of intent, motive, or Steven Avery's plan to commit violent or sexual crimes against Teresa Halbach
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf#page=120
They never found it on SA's computer, and hid what they found on the Dassey computer. The mere fact that they didn't use it against Brendan in his trial, leads me to believe the State also didn't believe Brendan was responsible for the images/searches.
All JMO
I agree that there is no comparison made between what was on that CD and what was on the DVD's that the defense did get back in 2006, there isn't a comparison from KZ or the State. The State could have easily said that it was information extracted from the DVD's, but they didn't, which would have been the easiest argument, no? As for comparison's and/or more in depth analysis of the CD, if it's added to the record, I expect to see it in whatever KZ files after this decision is made.
I did say in my post that the timing of the searches are important, and without knowing when the searches happened, I am just going to wait to see. I know that I have made some pretty disturbing searches, not with just this case lol I've been on websleuths for years and this isn't the only case I've followed ... I even used to be on other forums that no longer exist... we have a rule in my house... if something goofy happens to my husband, destroy the laptop hard drive haha
As for KZ making a connection to the crime, my understanding is that this information could have been used back in 2006 to meet the Denny standards in regards to Bobby Dassey, which if it had, would have allowed the defense to present a different theory to the jury, which could have resulted in reasonable doubt. KZ cites a case in her motion where the appellate Court agreed that the trial court had properly admitted evidence of sadomasochism
and "snuff films" depicting torture and death scenes because the State theorized the defendant was sexually motivated to commit the murder. So it's along the same lines of motive in regards to Bobby... some of the searches that we already know about are pretty disturbing, I want to see what else is in there and when they happened, and see if they can determine who made them. And I don't want to read that it's not relevant because according to Wiegert, it was. From a search warrant...
Your affiant believes that images of
, torture, and death may be relevant as to issues of intent, motive, or Steven Avery's plan to commit violent or sexual crimes against Teresa Halbachhttp://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf#page=120
They never found it on SA's computer, and hid what they found on the Dassey computer. The mere fact that they didn't use it against Brendan in his trial, leads me to believe the State also didn't believe Brendan was responsible for the images/searches.
All JMO
Avery supporters have said this for 2 years now. It's time she got started.
Personally, I think she got started straight away, and she just never backed up her "airtight alibi" and other big claims. Whatever successes she had in the past say nothing about how she will do in this case. She can free an innocent man maybe, but if Avery is guilty she will never get him out. I have that much faith in the justice system.
If she ever gets him an evidentiary hearing, Steven will most likely take the stand. I think even Avery supporters will agree that's not likely to end well.
So Zellner is trying to get Avery a new trial without showing all the evidence? That doesn't sound very smart to me. Less evidence = less chance at success.
Saying she has been speaking the truth is more wishful thinking... it certainly isn't based on anything. There is no evidence she was speaking the truth when she said it is undisputed or that she has some info we don't know about. If this was undisputed, she would've been granted an evidentiary hearing.
So far Kratz hasn't really been outsmarted by her. And she didn't really impress Sutkiewicz either.
Zellner has got many victories under her belt, but also many losses.
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It really is a copy, yea.
The only one making the claim there is a Brady violation here is KZ. Not the State, obviously. It's up to KZ to deliver because she is making the claim. Do you think she is doing a good job?
In reverse, if the contents are different, why is Zellner not showing them? That would've been the easiest way to get her Brady, no? Instead, she is not showing anyone what is on it, thereby risking another failure in trying to get Steve a hearing or trial! And more time in jail for her client that should've been out already according to some long forgotten Twitter messages by her. Why does Zellner prefer to take the risky route if she actually has something that guarantees her success?
As for the State's response, I think that the approach they took is actually the easiest and the quickest. It's been over ten years since the evidence was produced to the Defense. Before making the claim the State's appellate attorneys would have to review everything that is on the CD and compare it to everything provided to the Defense back in the day. That is quite an effort and time consuming as well. I don't doubt the response they have given instead was neither time consuming nor an effort.
Then there is the chance that a difference is found, though they could simply be .TMP files or "hidden" (tech) files other useless stuff and the State would claim they are indeed useless and meaningless, but Zellner would simply say they aren't.
But whether they were different or not, there really is no authority to "supplement" the record on appeal with something the trial judge never saw. The object on appeal is for the appellant to show why the trial court committed an error. Something the trial judge never saw couldn't have been part of any error.
Zellner could've shared the contents of the CD and we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. There is a reason she's not showing what would've allegedly given her the Brady she seeks.
Why do you think Zellner had not shared the timing of the searches? Surely if they had been done before the media coverage began she would've said so? She would've had a lot more chance of success if she had included the search times (if they were done before the media coverage).
And now she's not sharing the contents of the CD to prove a Brady... it's like a Déjà vu.
lol same here. Imagine if we ever become a suspect in a homicide case and the cops check our search history? I'd get really nervous (and that would make me look all the more suspicious)
Hmm I remember one of the criteria for Denny back in 2007 was that if u were seeking to introduce a third party you would need to show evidence that this party had a connection to the crime and had opportunity to do so. Bobby's only connection to the crime is being a neighbour of SA. The search terms and access times can't be attributed to Bobby solely and without any dates there is no evidence these searches are evidence of a connection to the crime.
KZ cites a case in her motion where the appellate Court agreed that the trial court had properly admitted evidence of sadomasochism
Well that's what Zellner claims anyway. Was this in her PC Motion? Or any of her supplements afterwards?
Wiegert did use the words "may be". So why can't I?
Your affiant believes that images of
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Search-Warrant-File.pdf#page=120
It's relevant if this is all you have against someone? Or does it become relevant if it adds up with other facts that had been gathered?
They "hid" what they found on the Dassey family computer? As in, they did so on purpose? Iirc I read that Buting and Strang were actually aware of all this 11 years ago already?
I believe Steven was also aware about the stuff on the Dassey family computer and he was the one who told an undercover cop about it. How did he know? Did they tell him? Why would they if this was so incriminating and related to the Halbach murder? I don't think Steven is the one who did these searches, but right now there isn't really evidence he didn't do them either. I think that's pretty funny.
Or it simply means they were aware anyone could've done it. And if that were the case, introducing it at trial could've hurt their case.
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<modsnip>
<modsnip>
The people who support Avery are not groupies or fans or <modsnip>. The majority of us are seekers of truth and justice. We believe, honestly believe, that there are two men serving life in prison for a crime they didn’t commit. One of them was 16 years old when he went in. The other has spent 30 plus years in there for crimes he did not commit.
We are seeking justice for Teresa. <modsnip>
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BBM She isn't showing us what is on it, but the State and the Court is seeing it. The CD is sealed. The motion was to add or supplement the record, I don't think the specifics needed to be added to that motion, but who knows, maybe it would strengthen (or weaken) the motion. If it's added, I'm sure we will see the specifics, if it's not, I'm not sure we will know anytime soon.
I do like Zellner... but I have also been a critic, the fact that she told the media before the court that she and the state agreed to more testing, etc. and then the court ruled was a HUGE mistake in my opinion. I think she set everything back, but then a part of me thinks that who knows, maybe she did it on purpose (but I doubt it lol) I have also been a critic on some of her theories, but understand that she doesn't necessarily have to believe what's in her motions, it's about showing alternatives that weren't explored at the time.
BBM but that's the problem, this evidence (the CD) was not produced to the defense. That is what a Brady claim is, isn't it?
This isn't just about something that the trial court didn't see, it's about something that the defense didn't see, which is a Brady violation and was part of the appeal, this is just "adding" to that argument.
I'm not sure if you mean "sharing" to be in the motion, or with the world? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you? The Court sealed the CD, not KZ. If the contents on that CD could be tied to Bobby and then that information could have been used to meet the Denny standards back in 2005/6 but was never shared with the defense, that is a Brady violation.
I don't think it was necessary for this motion. I would expect it to be part of her motion if it is added to the record though. We do have some information from earlier motion's. I believe it was in the Motion to Reconsider and supplements. I went back and looked at those last week, some of the searches are disturbing, they were before and after 10/31/05, there were blocks of missing info (where it was said things were deleted), but I went to see if those motions included the searches with the specific terms stated were searched on the sealed CD, and they didn't.
As I understand it, Denny is a 3 prong test.... they need to show motive, opportunity, and some evidence to directly connect the third person to the crime. The opportunity and evidence connected to the crime actually came straight from Bobby himself when he placed himself at home and seeing TH. It was the motive part that they couldn't meet. KZ is arguing with the case she cited that the violent and sexual nature of the searches/images can be used as a 'motive' and has been used by the State in the past (at least that's how I understand it).
The case was cited in the Motion to Supplement http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...otion-to-Correct-or-Supplement-the-Record.pdf Page 6
and alternatively, why can't KZ?
I would imagine both. Probably why KZ cited the case she did. It has been used in the past to show sexual motive.
I just read Buting's affidavit again that was attached to the Motion.... don't think he knew about it and don't think he saw it. He also says that if there is anything on there that could have been linked to Bobby, they could have used it in their Denny motions. http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Correct-or-Supplement-the-Record.pdf#page=10
Who and when did SA say anything about the computer? There is so much information out there, could you provide a source pls
I don't not believe you, just want to see it lol and who knows... maybe SA was over there and Bobby was showing SA pics on the computer? maybe Barb mentioned it to SA, or one of the other boys... I agree that it might be hard to link the searches to one individual in that household, but with more investigation, it might make it easier (like logging into other sites around the same times, such as email, facebook or myspace, etc.)
I'm surprised it's taking this long to rule on the motion. I wish things were quicker!!! Not sure how long KZ will have after the ruling, but I have read she will have 6 days to file afterwards. I am hoping she has 2 ready to go, 1 for either decision and files after the decision is made.
proudfootz
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Who and when did SA say anything about the computer? There is so much information out there, could you provide a source pls
Snipped and bolded by me.
If several people are using a computer, there's a very good chance someone else will come across material from another person's searches.
I discovered some very interesting things my (now ex-) wife left on our shared computer...
lots of modsnips there....
People who believe Avery murdered Halbach also honestly believe that the right man is in jail right now. They believe MaM destroyed the reputations of Lenk and Colborn and, to some degree, Kratz. They also think MaM destroyed the closure the Halbach family once found after Avery's conviction and they think what is happening right now is not justice for Teresa at all.
And a lot of Avery supporters come across as if they're seeking justice for Mr. Avery, rather than Teresa. It's always about him, never about her. If you're seeking justice for Teresa, you should consider all possible suspects. With no alibi, plenty of opportunity, the fact he had seen her that day, zero proven planted evidence, and a rich history of contradicting himself, Avery should be considered a suspect by anyone.
proudfootz
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Obviously any justice for TH would involve taking account of possible suspects - including people who don't happen to be the guy suing LE over a previous framing for a serious crime.
Hmm... IMO there are not many people who honestly believe the right men are in jail. Not anyone who has done any in depth research into the case at least. Sure, there are contrarians who just want to disagree with a popular documentary because that is how they roll. There are also those who may be directly invested in the outcome and they may WANT to believe the right men are in jail but it is more cognitive dissonance leading them in that direction than it is anything based on the facts of the case.
Then of course we have the “PR firm”(aka - disinfo agency) hired by the National Sherriffs Association who have been trying to heavily influence public opinion on this case. But that has nothing to do with honesty, on the contrary, it is perception by way of deception.
How could have MaM destroyed any closure for the Halbachs if the right men are in jail?
More importantly, how could anyone possibly know how the Halbachs feel about what is happening right now? Could you point me in the direction of your source for this interesting and previously unknown tidbit of info?
And there has been a ruling. The motion has been denied BUT it's being sent back to the circuit court! The bolded parts were done by me. The wording strikes me as interesting "receipt of previously withheld discovery". KZ will now be able to file everything that she has (which is still less than it should be had she filed the agreement she had with the State last year to do further testing, unless she can now pursue that again?) It also looks like they have not only given KZ deadlines, but the Circuit court as well.
Filed By: Kathleen Zellner
Submit Date: 5-29-2018
Decision: (O) Other
Decision Date: 6-7-2018
ORD that the motion to supplement the record is denied.
FRO that this appeal is remanded forthwith to the circuit court to permit Steven A. Avery to pursue a supplemental postconviction motion in connection with Avery's receipt of previously withheld discovery or other new information.
FRO that any supplemental postconviction motion shall be filed in the circuit court within thirty days.
FRO that the circuit court shall conduct any necessary proceedings and enter an order containing its findings and conclusions within sixty days after the supplemental postconviction motion is filed.
FRO that if Avery intends to order a transcript of any post-remand hearing, he shall do so within ten days after the circuit court enters its order deciding the supplemental postconviction motion. Any such transcript shall be filed an served within twenty days after its request. Avery shall provide the court reporter with a copy of this order.
FRO that Avery shall file a statement on transcript within fifteen days after the circuit court enters its post-remand order deciding the supplemental postconviction motion. The statement on transcript shall reflect either that a post-remand transcript has been ordered or that such a transcript is not necessary for this appeal.
FRO that the circuit court clerk shall re-transmit the record to this court within twenty days after the later of the entry of the circuit court order resolving the supplemental postconviction motion or the filing of any post-remand hearing transcript, if ordered. The record shall include any papers filed pursuant to this remand.
FRO that the appellant shall file an appellant's opening brief presenting all grounds for relief within forty days after the filing of the record.
Filed By: Kathleen Zellner
Submit Date: 5-29-2018
Decision: (O) Other
Decision Date: 6-7-2018
ORD that the motion to supplement the record is denied.
FRO that this appeal is remanded forthwith to the circuit court to permit Steven A. Avery to pursue a supplemental postconviction motion in connection with Avery's receipt of previously withheld discovery or other new information.
FRO that any supplemental postconviction motion shall be filed in the circuit court within thirty days.
FRO that the circuit court shall conduct any necessary proceedings and enter an order containing its findings and conclusions within sixty days after the supplemental postconviction motion is filed.
FRO that if Avery intends to order a transcript of any post-remand hearing, he shall do so within ten days after the circuit court enters its order deciding the supplemental postconviction motion. Any such transcript shall be filed an served within twenty days after its request. Avery shall provide the court reporter with a copy of this order.
FRO that Avery shall file a statement on transcript within fifteen days after the circuit court enters its post-remand order deciding the supplemental postconviction motion. The statement on transcript shall reflect either that a post-remand transcript has been ordered or that such a transcript is not necessary for this appeal.
FRO that the circuit court clerk shall re-transmit the record to this court within twenty days after the later of the entry of the circuit court order resolving the supplemental postconviction motion or the filing of any post-remand hearing transcript, if ordered. The record shall include any papers filed pursuant to this remand.
FRO that the appellant shall file an appellant's opening brief presenting all grounds for relief within forty days after the filing of the record.
Not surprisingly
LOL Okay. It's still going back to the circuit court, where she will file the CD in a new motion and it will become part of the record anyway, not really a lose IMO Looks like she will be able to file any other "new" information too.
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