Post Conviction Brief

[Karinna]

Oh, I see. You thought the testimony was in the brief instead of in the trial transcript.

Yes i did because the title of this thread is Post Conviction Brief, lol.

 

[Karinna]

I find it interesting in reading back over some of the PCB that Ms. Zellner's theory about deleted voicemails is that it was done so it wouldn't noticed that TH was missing and therefore gave the killer more time to set things up to make it look as if Avery did it. A lot of the speculation thought it was because the killer was trying to hide messages that were incriminating toward him.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes i did because the title of this thread is Post Conviction Brief, lol.

It's been my experience that not every single post in this entire thread gets its information directly from the post conviction relief. A lot of posts are like that because people bring in evidence from where it was acquired to bolster their own posts.

In discussing the timelines, which are in the brief, we needed to bring in evidence from other documents. I hope that makes sense.

 

[missy1974]

Oh, I see. I hadn't read these exhibits from the brief. I will do so soon. That sheds some light on things. I thought I was going crazy about those new phone records. It's as if she hadn't had a call until about 2pm, according to them. then I wondered if it was on GMT, like in the Jodi Arias case, and then, I was just like, whatever. I'm going cross-eyed looking at it.

Did you see how in the relief statement, Zellner said she thought the key was on Scott's kitchen counter in that missing person's interview? I've been hopping around, reading parts of the relief, and some of the explanations are kind of amazing to me. I can't tell if that is the key in the picture, but I can say Scott and RH are acting hella weird around that time frame. I personally think that valet key was already in the car because it would make sense that she kept it there, ready to give it to anyone parking or working on her car. Ironically, I never did that, though. Mine from my last car was always at home, and I basically forgot about it.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-23-WFRV-Interview-Stills.pdf

Do you think that's the key in the above photo?

****

Okay, so I read that stuff. Is there more stuff from this Special Agent McGrath?

Did he follow up about Scott's call to Steven #3? I see Dawn still hadn't given the reason to call TH at 227pm.

IIRC the new records are 6 hours ahead, KZ mentions it in the brief. It's very confusing, and then they don't completely line up with the original Cingular records, very confusing.

ETA: oops, hit post too quickly LOL

I am not sure about the key, I tend to agree with you, that the key was in the RAV4 or it was a new key.

I will have a look around, I am not sure if we have record of a followup with Steve#3, and we only have the odd page here and there from DCI (one's that are exhibits). The guy that got all of the documents requested DCI reports from the State; however, they were denied.

 

[missy1974]

I got one of my addresses from the CASO reports.

This is what it gave on top of Bobby Dassey's interview, page 90:

BOBBY A. DASSEY
DOB r0/XX/XX
N12930 Avery Rd.
Two Rivers, WI
Phone 920-755-8715

The other two came from AT records. That is how I came up with three different versions of the address. My Google put the locator right on top of Steven's trailer every time and changed the address I put in to 12932 Avery Rd, without the letters. I figured it meant Google had reindexed the addresses since then. I don't know.

Interesting is that in CASO, page 191, this is Barb's address:
Barbara E. Janda
DOB xxxxx
12930A Avery Rd.
Two Rivers, WI 54241

Maybe it was a typo in Bobby's address.

But I do want to know why go to Steven's house when there are cars in front of Janda's house. Bobby said his car was in the driveway. It might be as simple as you said -- that the police had made Bobby think Steven was trying to implicate him, and we'll never know what really happened if Bobby wasn't telling the whole truth about having contact with her.

I looked in a few different places for the addresses... the AutoTrader lead sheets, the fax that Dawn sent to TH that day, and then what Angela reported to DCI when she was interviewed and gave them a pretty good run down of the Janda/Avery accounts, that they were linked, the addresses and phone numbers associated with the accounts. I figure the only relevant addresses would be the one's given to TH and the one's that AT knew.

On that note though... I noticed after I posted that in the Brief, KZ says that SA's affidavit said he confirmed the address with AT when he called shortly after 11...

Mr. Avery confirmed the address of the Barbara Janda
appointment as being 12932 Avery Road.

SA's affidavit, go to page 2 (sorry, copy and paste is poo from that document lol) :

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-4-Affidavit-of-Steven-Avery.pdf

 

[missy1974]

JMO but the brief is very very long and covers almost everything from original docs, testimony, and then all the new stuff she put in there, along with all of the exhibits, that brief with the exhibits, was almost 1000 pages IIRC.

I apologize if I have posted anything that is not related to the brief, but hard to find where the line is with how much the brief covers

by the way wasnt_me... it's fun to see you going through everything and gathering all the info!!! Have your thoughts changed at all about innocence/guilt for either SA or Brendan?

 

[Karinna]

It's been my experience that not every single post in this entire thread gets its information directly from the post conviction relief. A lot of posts are like that because people bring in evidence from where it was acquired to bolster their own posts.

In discussing the timelines, which are in the brief, we needed to bring in evidence from other documents. I hope that makes sense.

Yes i get what you're saying but it can get a bit confusing when other stuff is brought in from the previous trial etc.
The way i see it if this case of Avery's gets a retrial instead of just walking SA out of prison, as i think Ms. Zellner was wanting to do, then in her PCB she has taken certain factors of the case and has constructed her own new theory and new timeline as to what her investigation has found, and that is what i imagine she will be working with at a retrial, and not rehashing of prior evidence. I think she will as according to her PCB discount a lot of the previous findings against SA because she has put forth all the legal issues that were violated in SA's previous conviction, especially if as she suspects he was set up for conviction at the time.
That's just my take on it anyway.

 

[wasnt_me]

Yeah, I was just noting where I got mine from because you didn't mention the one with the "N" in front. If he confirmed the address, and afterward, Dawn printed and faxed this sheet:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-22-Lead-Form-5005Oct31.pdf

Then, that's the address we have to go with, right?

and the one listed there has the "A" after the house number. Looking at where the van is located in real photos, it seems that she was parked in front of it. I just can't tell from Avery's drawing if she parked directly in front of it or across the street. And I can't tell the direction her car was pointed in.

Neither Bobby nor Steve say TH made a U-turn. She had to make one coming in, so she could drive out straight -- or she had to make one going out because she was facing the opposite direction that the van faced. It's a very small detail, but I wish someone had asked either of them what she did exactly upon parking or driving off.

 

[Karinna]

JMO but the brief is very very long and covers almost everything from original docs, testimony, and then all the new stuff she put in there, along with all of the exhibits, that brief with the exhibits, was almost 1000 pages IIRC.

I apologize if I have posted anything that is not related to the brief, but hard to find where the line is with how much the brief covers

by the way wasnt_me... it's fun to see you going through everything and gathering all the info!!! Have your thoughts changed at all about innocence/guilt for either SA or Brendan?

BBM, Yes, her PCB is over 1000 pages, and i have only read 220 of those as has been posted up. Are there more pages from the brief available for the public to read?

 

[wasnt_me]

Yes i get what you're saying but it can get a bit confusing when other stuff is brought in from the previous trial etc.
The way i see it if this case of Avery's gets a retrial instead of just walking SA out of prison, as i think Ms. Zellner was wanting to do, then in her PCB she has taken certain factors of the case and has constructed her own new theory and new timeline as to what her investigation has found, and that is what i imagine she will be working with at a retrial, and not rehashing of prior evidence. I think she will as according to her PCB discount a lot of the previous findings against SA because she has put forth all the legal issues that were violated in SA's previous conviction, especially if as she suspects he was set up for conviction at the time.
That's just my take on it anyway.

I really don't understand what that has to do with us discussing prior evidence in support of or in disagreement with anything Zellner puts in her relief. It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't use prior evidence to come to the conclusion of whether we believe her assertions or not. I don't see how determining the veracity of her case is accomplished without testing it against prior evidence.

Zellner is a worthy lawyer, and I am glad she is on the case, BUT just because she discounts something doesn't mean her opponents will. And they in fact DO from the novice on the internet all the way up to Kratz.

This is not a "rehashing" of the evidence. I'm sorry that you think it is, but I have never hashed it to start with and I'm very appreciative of posters here who are being patient enough to go over it with me and to treat me with respect even though they re further along in the case than I am. It would be very easy for people to just ignore what they consider "rehashing," but other posters have really, really helped me get up to speed on this case. I would imagine that there might be readers who are also new to the case, but don't post, and they might appreciate this discourse as well.

 

[Karinna]

I really don't understand what that has to do with us discussing prior evidence in support of or in disagreement with anything Zellner puts in her relief. It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't use prior evidence to come to the conclusion of whether we believe her assertions or not. I don't see how determining the veracity of her case is accomplished without testing it against prior evidence.

Zellner is a worthy lawyer, and I am glad she is on the case, BUT just because she discounts something doesn't mean her opponents will. And they in fact DO from the novice on the internet all the way up to Kratz.

This is not a "rehashing" of the evidence. I'm sorry that you think it is, but I have never hashed it to start with and I'm very appreciative of posters here who are being patient enough to go over it with me and to treat me with respect even though they re further along in the case than I am. It would be very easy for people to just ignore what they consider "rehashing," but other posters have really, really helped me get up to speed on this case. I would imagine that there might be readers who are also new to the case, but don't post, and they might appreciate this discourse as well.

I was talking about Ms. Zellner and what she has laid out in her PCB in my post and not about the posters here.
Ms. Zellner will be Steven Avery's trial lawyer if this case gets a retrial, as she is the only one now that can help get Avery exonerated.

 

[wasnt_me]

JMO but the brief is very very long and covers almost everything from original docs, testimony, and then all the new stuff she put in there, along with all of the exhibits, that brief with the exhibits, was almost 1000 pages IIRC.

I apologize if I have posted anything that is not related to the brief, but hard to find where the line is with how much the brief covers

by the way wasnt_me... it's fun to see you going through everything and gathering all the info!!! Have your thoughts changed at all about innocence/guilt for either SA or Brendan?

You know, I'm glad you asked.

I went into this thinking, "What the heck? Oh, heck no. Ryan Furgeson all over again."

Then, with all this evidence, I am finding it so hard to believe either of the two conclusions! I just cannot believe SA dialed up a victim like a pizza! And poor Brendan. Someone should have saved him a long time ago.

But the thing I cannot get over is the blood in the car. It looks like it's planted. I could have believed the blood tube story, but I can't believe the blood in the sink story. It's hard to get over the coincidence of a burned victim and Avery just happening to have a burn pit. But at the same time, I don't believe she was burned in his yard.

But whoever set him up, has to have knowledge of a lot of things pertaining to him.

Zellner is pointing out some incredible to believe stories, but at the same time, she's pointing out enough legal mistakes that there needs to be a new trial or something.

For Me, Brendan is easy. He needs to be set free. But I've studied enough false confessions that I readily believe his is false.

For Steven, I just don't think he'd be that damn stupid. He has got to be the dumbest murderer ever to do this the way it's laid out. I also think, by the way people describe him, he would not approach a victim this way.

I don't know if he really had sex with Marie, but if you read her story and believe it, you see that Steven coaches her into it over time. He enjoyed the psychological aspect of it. He didn't just outright jump on her and rape her. So I don't think he would just jump on Teresa out of the blue. I know we don't need a motive, but I think we do with Steven because he just got freed from 18 years in jail for nothing. And I strongly believe he likes control and mental games, and a quick rape and murder is not that. Plus, Steve is tying to get that money from the false imprisonment. That's millions of reasons not to want to do this at that time.

So I'm looking for reasonable doubt. We'd probably have to start another thread discussing our "reasonable" doubt, though.

I'm thinking you have reasonable doubt. What are your opinions?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

The new phone records are not easy to follow, and then it seems like there are calls that are missing that were on her cingular records. KZ doesn't give an explanation for that, but it might be something we could hear at a hearing if an employee of AT&T testified.

For example... Dedering in the CASO report http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/CASO-Investigative-Report.pdf#page=7 writes:

The fifth last phone call at 12:44 p.m. would be an incoming from the phone
number 920-254-6635, unknown at that time whose phone number that would have been

The above number belongs to the 3rd Steve that is written on the bottom of her Monday day planner.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-45-Halbach-day-planner.pdf

But I don't see the number on the "new phone records", which is an exhibit attached to the Post Conviction Brief:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-72-New-Halbach-Cell-Records.pdf

It makes it a bit frustrating when we don't have all the answers. ;-)


I have always felt Dawn was sketchy too wasnt_me, she really had no reason to change her story over time. And like KZ pointed out in the brief, the defense sure didn't do there job when it came to cross examining her. Here is another exhibit from the PCB, which includes DCI interviews of Dawn and Rachel at Auto Trader:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-102-Interviews-of-Dawn-Pliszka.pdf

On page 6, you will see how the "Steve called AT" story started/morphed into SA calling, when it is more likely it was Steve #3 that was called by TH's roommate and in turn called AT saying he was not impressed that he was being accused of something and that TH didn't show up. It really makes me wonder if Scott or Ryan called Steve #3 assuming it was Steven Avery?

There is definitely more to this story, I hope some day we find out the truth!

FYI~~~

The 3rd Steve called AutoTrader Toll Free Number on 10/31 @ 12:43pm

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf

Something fishy about this guy IMHO.

 

[wasnt_me]

IIRC the new records are 6 hours ahead, KZ mentions it in the brief. It's very confusing, and then they don't completely line up with the original Cingular records, very confusing.

ETA: oops, hit post too quickly LOL

I am not sure about the key, I tend to agree with you, that the key was in the RAV4 or it was a new key.

I will have a look around, I am not sure if we have record of a followup with Steve#3, and we only have the odd page here and there from DCI (one's that are exhibits). The guy that got all of the documents requested DCI reports from the State; however, they were denied.

Okay, so I took this 6 hour advice and I might have figured it out.

14:17 (8:17am) -- DP leaves message for TH 414-425-8736
15:46 (9:46am) -- TH returned call with a msg 414-425-8738
16:44 (10:44am )-- TH makes or receives an unknown call
16:52 (10:52am) --TH calls or receives a call from auto trader 414-425-8738 Time--5 seconds
17:04 (11:04am) -- voicemail check length Time 1:15
11:04am -- SA calls AT on landline. (the 800 number call list)
17:10 (11:10am) -- Another call between TH and auto trader 414-425-8736 Time--5 seconds


I'm thinking the 8736 ext is when AT calls out. the 8738 ext is when TH calls in.

The new call records do not show DP's afternoon call to TH. On the list, TH's 2pm calls are at the 20 hour.

I don't see that the records look much different than what we knew already between the cingular and old Att records. I would like to know, though, why after 2:41pm on her cingular records, does the location start saying Chicago.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-72-New-Halbach-Cell-Records.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf

In the toll free records, I do see what BigCity notes about seeing Steven #3's number. It says "Sheboygan," and I believe that is what is written on the planner, "Steve Sheboygan."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-45-Halbach-day-planner.pdf

So it would probably be true if Steve #3 said she told him she was going in the opposite direction because Avery and Zipperer are about 40 min north of Sheboygan.

According to Cingular, she does talk to someone for 3 min at 1245pm. I wonder if that was Sheboygan. It is not on her "new cell" records.

Anyway. This is what I think. What do you guys think?

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Okay, so I took this 6 hour advice and I might have figured it out.

14:17 (8:17am) -- DP leaves message for TH 414-425-8736
15:46 (9:46am) -- TH returned call with a msg 414-425-8738
16:44 (10:44am )-- TH makes or receives an unknown call
16:52 (10:52am) --TH calls or receives a call from auto trader 414-425-8738 Time--5 seconds
17:04 (11:04am) -- voicemail check length Time 1:15
11:04am -- SA calls AT on landline. (the 800 number call list)
17:10 (11:10am) -- Another call between TH and auto trader 414-425-8736 Time--5 seconds


I'm thinking the 8736 ext is when AT calls out. the 8738 ext is when TH calls in.

The new call records do not show DP's afternoon call to TH. On the list, TH's 2pm calls are at the 20 hour.

I don't see that the records look much different than what we knew already between the cingular and old Att records. I would like to know, though, why after 2:41pm on her cingular records, does the location start saying Chicago.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-72-New-Halbach-Cell-Records.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf

In the toll free records, I do see what BigCity notes about seeing Steven #3's number. It says "Sheboygan," and I believe that is what is written on the planner, "Steve Sheboygan."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-45-Halbach-day-planner.pdf

So it would probably be true if Steve #3 said she told him she was going in the opposite direction because Avery and Zipperer are about 40 min north of Sheboygan.

According to Cingular, she does talk to someone for 3 min at 1245pm. I wonder if that was Sheboygan. It is not on her "new cell" records.

Anyway. This is what I think. What do you guys think?

You got it!!!

IIRC, the Chicago vs Milwaukee is what transfer station the calls were routed too.

 

[missy1974]

BBM, Yes, her PCB is over 1000 pages, and i have only read 220 of those as has been posted up. Are there more pages from the brief available for the public to read?

The exhibits, which are 100's of pages, including expert affidavits, SA affidavit, witness affidavit's, DCI reports we haven't read before, other evidence we got to see for the first time, various reports, etc. can be found here:

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/appealsdocuments/

KZ also references Trial Testimony in her Brief and other LE reports, some that we already had so they aren't in that list.

 

[missy1974]

FYI~~~

The 3rd Steve called AutoTrader Toll Free Number on 10/31 @ 12:43pm

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf

Something fishy about this guy IMHO.

well... what the heck! So he calls AT, they give him TH's phone number and he calls her? But his number still doesn't show up on the AT&T records. Weird!

 

[missy1974]

Okay, so I took this 6 hour advice and I might have figured it out.

14:17 (8:17am) -- DP leaves message for TH 414-425-8736
15:46 (9:46am) -- TH returned call with a msg 414-425-8738
16:44 (10:44am )-- TH makes or receives an unknown call
16:52 (10:52am) --TH calls or receives a call from auto trader 414-425-8738 Time--5 seconds
17:04 (11:04am) -- voicemail check length Time 1:15
11:04am -- SA calls AT on landline. (the 800 number call list)
17:10 (11:10am) -- Another call between TH and auto trader 414-425-8736 Time--5 seconds


I'm thinking the 8736 ext is when AT calls out. the 8738 ext is when TH calls in.

The new call records do not show DP's afternoon call to TH. On the list, TH's 2pm calls are at the 20 hour.

I don't see that the records look much different than what we knew already between the cingular and old Att records. I would like to know, though, why after 2:41pm on her cingular records, does the location start saying Chicago.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...Trial-Exhibit-361-Halbach-Cingular-Report.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-72-New-Halbach-Cell-Records.pdf

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-74-Toll-Free-Records.pdf

In the toll free records, I do see what BigCity notes about seeing Steven #3's number. It says "Sheboygan," and I believe that is what is written on the planner, "Steve Sheboygan."

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Exhibit-45-Halbach-day-planner.pdf

So it would probably be true if Steve #3 said she told him she was going in the opposite direction because Avery and Zipperer are about 40 min north of Sheboygan.

According to Cingular, she does talk to someone for 3 min at 1245pm. I wonder if that was Sheboygan. It is not on her "new cell" records.

Anyway. This is what I think. What do you guys think?

the 12:45 call is Steve#3 according to Dedering's report in CASO, and he got those records from Cingular IIRC.

Your times look right, I'm not sure about the 36/38 AT phone numbers. I imagine like most businesses they had more than one extension and depending on which line they used to dial out the number would be different. We still don't know how/when TH called AT to confirm she could do the B. Janda shoot before SA called AT though. I was wondering if maybe she answered the 9:46 call from AT saying she could do it, but at that point she had not listened to her messages yet, that didn't come until later at 11:04am, where she would have heard the details. But wait, that doesn't make sense because Angela said she took the call and Dawn was out to lunch... grrrrr nevermind LOL

 

[wasnt_me]

I don't know. They could have a five second call. I put on a timer, and in my mind, did an imaginary exchange. It lasted exactly 5 second, but it was be quick. If ringing the line is counted, then no way unless it's like half a ring.

I agree that the business probably had a few extensions, but I also think Dawn had a particular extension, and the photographers had specific number to call.

I looked at Avery's records to see what he dialed and at 812am, he'd dialed 877-425-7653. The toll free number is 7643 on the records in the relief. I can't explain that one. Except maybe the 800 numbers automatically switch exchanges if one is busy.

I think AT needed to have explained a lot of things about how their business worked. I'm still unclear about how they got the car description. As we see on that print out for the Van, Avery seems to have given Dawn some sot of vague semblance of a write up.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Trial-Exhibit-22-Lead-Form-5005Oct31.pdf

I mean, it's a repeat of the name of the van, but it's written in "ad text." Is that always how they do it? I don't see anywhere that TH gave ad text before, but maybe they aren't showing us those documents. They should. The other photographer interviewed is the only one who said the photographers collect descriptions, right? I can imagine it takes more than 5 minutes per shoot if they have to collect them. Not everyone will have them ready, and wouldn't they have to review them with the seller and get them to sign off that it's accurate?

It's confusing, and if I had to rule on the timeline in the relief, I would need to know everything about these calls.

 

[missy1974]

okay... so first... the time of the calls does not include the ringing time. It's the from the time it connects to the time it disconnects. From our hours of going over the calls and voicemail records, I think we even narrowed it down to her VM greeting was 18 or 19 seconds long lol

As for the descriptions, I am pretty sure the customer writes down the description, or in SA's case he said he would write it down and give it to her IIRC. It's interesting that Dawn was able to "understand" that much from someone she couldn't understand their first name :facepalm: