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[Emre E]

It's possible he noticed the tattoo at the last minute just before dumping her body and did what he could with whatever tools he had on hand.

Look at the defacing job again. Whatever tool he had was enough to remove "Remy's Angel" but not the wing? Doesn't seem plausible. It's not a last minute job, it's just a haphazard job.

 

[Emre E]

Anyone remember the predator and the prey discussions made earlier here? Peter Brendt made an excellent examination especially on Megan Waterman's case. And his blitz attacker seeing girls, tired, distracted, not alert and making his move.

If that was the case, in the dump sites we would be seeing women other than sex workers . Is it just prostitutes giving a vulnerable outlook to the predator? Of course not, there are many women out there who'd look exactly in a prey state. But we see only prostitutes. (I know there are some unconfirmed remains)

So why prostitutes and why weekends standing out in GB4? (Don't consider their "last seen date", we don't know if it is the date they are taken)

My explanation is he's robbing them. Choosing weekends (late days of weekend) so he knows the gals have money on them after some lucrative business on Fri, Sat nights..

But it's not just robbery, there's a clear sexual element. Think of Melissa Barthelemy case, she's seen before the ATM. When you see a person before the ATM and say you are observing from a distance, how would you interpret? She's "withdrawing" money. That's the usual case. But Melissa was "depositing". If the motive was fully financial I would be expecting money withdrawals from Melissa's account. He's got the card, he's got Melissa. If he did not finish her in seconds. Maybe there are some withdrawals, no information about that was released.

Perp saying "I'm with the NYPD". That is ridiculous. A cross check of duty lists and calls and abductions would give a handful of names if not his name directly. He's not a cop. But think again, your intention is to scare somebody, what would you tell the person. Whatever idea that scares you. He's saying I'm a cop, because he's scared of cops or been with cops and observed their powers. So, he may be some kind of confidential informant. Or himself, or his acquaintances/kins were arrested by cops.

The Hannibal Lecter killer... He's calling the sister 8 times and not even once putting Melissa on the phone, making them hear her screams? What kind of lazy sadist is this? My opinion is he already killed her and calling sister for completely different reasons. Just intrigued by her complexion.

He's in down town New York in the late night hours, early morning hours. What is his job? The millionaire Hannibal is being predatory around the city or simply he's either a pimp or my idea he's a friend/brother/cousin of a pimp.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

The thing about bittrolff is he likely did 3 murders in 3 months. I wonder what Peter Brendt would say about this. It looks like he dumped Rita and Colleen somewhat near his home base of Mastic/Shirley. Then starting in 2000, 6 years later bodies are dumped VERY CLOSE to his home in Manorville, which a member already showed he was living there by '00. So it doesn't appear he's too concerned with dumping far from his home turf with Rita and Colleen (Sandra Costilla is somewhat of wild card all the way out in the hamptons), he's just looking for a safe spot to dump the bodies. It's hard for me to imagine Bittrolff wasnt dumping these Manorville bodies, especially with the fact that he has the tools to dismember in his back yard and he was butchering pigs in his backyard. I would not be surprised at all if the story about his neighbor stopping to talk to him and he came out of his shed with blood on his shorts, if he wasn't actually dismembering a body while his family was away but was confident enough in his ability to talk his way out of a situation that he could dismember in almost plain sight, even have his neighbor see blood all over him and say "its just pig blood"...but the neighbors dog knew.....

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Anyone remember the predator and the prey discussions made earlier here? Peter Brendt made an excellent examination especially on Megan Waterman's case. And his blitz attacker seeing girls, tired, distracted, not alert and making his move.

If that was the case, in the dump sites we would be seeing women other than sex workers . Is it just prostitutes giving a vulnerable outlook to the predator? Of course not, there are many women out there who'd look exactly in a prey state. But we see only prostitutes. (I know there are some unconfirmed remains)

So why prostitutes and why weekends standing out in GB4? (Don't consider their "last seen date", we don't know if it is the date they are taken)

My explanation is he's robbing them. Choosing weekends (late days of weekend) so he knows the gals have money on them after some lucrative business on Fri, Sat nights..

But it's not just robbery, there's a clear sexual element. Think of Melissa Barthelemy case, she's seen before the ATM. When you see a person before the ATM and say you are observing from a distance, how would you interpret? She's "withdrawing" money. That's the usual case. But Melissa was "depositing". If the motive was fully financial I would be expecting money withdrawals from Melissa's account. He's got the card, he's got Melissa. If he did not finish her in seconds. Maybe there are some withdrawals, no information about that was released.

Perp saying "I'm with the NYPD". That is ridiculous. A cross check of duty lists and calls and abductions would give a handful of names if not his name directly. He's not a cop. But think again, your intention is to scare somebody, what would you tell the person. Whatever idea that scares you. He's saying I'm a cop, because he's scared of cops or been with cops and observed their powers. So, he may be some kind of confidential informant. Or himself, or his acquaintances/kins were arrested by cops.

The Hannibal Lecter killer... He's calling the sister 8 times and not even once putting Melissa on the phone, making them hear her screams? What kind of lazy sadist is this? My opinion is he already killed her and calling sister for completely different reasons. Just intrigued by her complexion.

He's in down town New York in the late night hours, early morning hours. What is his job? The millionaire Hannibal is being predatory around the city or simply he's either a pimp or my idea he's a friend/brother/cousin of a pimp.

bb

My explanation is that he has a need for a very particular physical type. What better way to go shopping than an online catalogue? Isn't that, in essence, what sites like Craigslist, Backpage, Sexy Jobs, etc. are ? I do agree that he robs them, though, because here's how I think he works...pick out the girl from the catalogue, gain her trust, pay a large sum of money for something special, kill her, take back your money. He doesn't kill the girl for her money, of course, he kills her for power and control, but I bet before he kills them he gloats about taking back the money they earned from him. What's more powerful than letting your victim know that the very thing that brought your into his web, his money...even THAT remains under his control?

JMO

 

[Emre E]

bb

My explanation is that he has a need for a very particular physical type. What better way to go shopping than an online catalogue? Isn't that, in essence, what sites like Craigslist, Backpage, Sexy Jobs, etc. are ? I do agree that he robs them, though, because here's how I think he works...pick out the girl from the catalogue, gain her trust, pay a large sum of money for something special, kill her, take back your money. He doesn't kill the girl for her money, of course, he kills her for power and control, but I bet before he kills them he gloats about taking back the money they earned from him. What's more powerful than letting your victim know that the very thing that brought your into his web, his money...even THAT remains under his control?

JMO

I understand he may have some type. That's what I assume too, to a certain degree. But wouldn't there be at least one woman who is not in the business, if it was just his sexual/emotional needs?

 

[Gerontion]

Off topic: I miss Peter Brendt. When he was good, there was none better. But when he was bad........
I wish he were still here.

 

[mcme]

bb

My explanation is that he has a need for a very particular physical type. What better way to go shopping than an online catalogue? Isn't that, in essence, what sites like Craigslist, Backpage, Sexy Jobs, etc. are ? I do agree that he robs them, though, because here's how I think he works...pick out the girl from the catalogue, gain her trust, pay a large sum of money for something special, kill her, take back your money. He doesn't kill the girl for her money, of course, he kills her for power and control, but I bet before he kills them he gloats about taking back the money they earned from him. What's more powerful than letting your victim know that the very thing that brought your into his web, his money...even THAT remains under his control?

JMO

My reason for personally not believing he had any previous contact with any of these victims is that there would be a record of that contact that all of them had in common. Even if there was some form of getting in touch with them that wasn't traceable, they would all have that untraceable contact from someone right before they went missing in common. No matter what type of contact he made, and I'm leaning towards phone contact being the only way the victims would do business, LE would have a way of tracking where it was bought, where it was used, how it was payed for etc. and that pattern would narrow down the suspect pool to a point where somebody would stand out to them. And that's if he really went out of his way to try and not be tracked. I truly believe this guy gets his victims as a crime of opportunity and gets them with no previous contact, from places/areas where he knows he's going to come across a tired, drunk, high, or somehow vulnerable hooker eventually. When he sees his chance, he acts.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I understand he may have some type. That's what I assume too, to a certain degree. But wouldn't there be at least one woman who is not in the business, if it was just his sexual/emotional needs?

Sexual needs are one thing, emotional needs are a whole other ball of wax. I think there's a tendency to view serial killers as monsters...abberations so unlike "us" that our road map for understanding them is all but non-existent. I don't agree. Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the concept of the human condition ( because I certainly can't tackle THAT on half a cup of coffee this morning), I believe that all human beings come into this world with the same basic emotional needs. How we develop...who we become...depends, in large part, upon how well those basic needs are met. We might not know the particulars of an individual's life story, but we do know the basic needs which drive them emotionally. We know that because it is universal to ALL human beings, even the human beings we choose to view as monsters. If you want to gain some insight into the mind of an individual, look at what they do in relation to these basic emotional needs:

Security (both emotional and physical)
Attention
Sense of autonomy and control
Emotional intimacy
Feeling part of a wider community
Privacy — opportunity to reflect and consolidate experience
Sense of status within social groupings
Sense of competence and achievement
Meaning and purpose

Think of school shooters in relation to these basic emotional needs, and then ask yourself why they pick a school. Think of individuals who become terrorists in relation to these basic concepts, and then ask yourself yourself how they justify killing so many innocent people? On the most basic levels, LISK is no different from the school shooter, the terrorist, or you and I. We all might DO different things, but what we do is based on the same emotional needs, and how well, or how poorly, those needs are met.

Now take what you know about LISK in relation to these basic emotional needs. What stands out to YOU?

(And yes, I do know that I didn't answer your question.)

 

[Emre E]

Sexual needs are one thing, emotional needs are a whole other ball of wax. I think there's a tendency to view serial killers as monsters...abberations so unlike "us" that our road map for understanding them is all but non-existent. I don't agree. Without getting into a lengthy discussion about the concept of the human condition ( because I certainly can't tackle THAT on half a cup of coffee this morning), I believe that all human beings come into this world with the same basic emotional needs. How we develop...who we become...depends, in large part, upon how well those basic needs are met. We might not know the particulars of an individual's life story, but we do know the basic needs which drive them emotionally. We know that because it is universal to ALL human beings, even the human beings we choose to view as monsters. If you want to gain some insight into the mind of an individual, look at what they do in relation to these basic emotional needs:

Security (both emotional and physical)
Attention
Sense of autonomy and control
Emotional intimacy
Feeling part of a wider community
Privacy — opportunity to reflect and consolidate experience
Sense of status within social groupings
Sense of competence and achievement
Meaning and purpose

Think of school shooters in relation to these basic emotional needs, and then ask yourself why they pick a school. Think of individuals who become terrorists in relation to these basic concepts, and then ask yourself yourself how they justify killing so many innocent people? On the most basic levels, LISK is no different from the school shooter, the terrorist, or you and I. We all might DO different things, but what we do is based on the same emotional needs, and how well, or how poorly, those needs are met.

Now take what you know about LISK in relation to these basic emotional needs. What stands out to YOU?

(And yes, I do know that I didn't answer your question.)

Maybe I should put it like that, LISK is a rapist, robber, killer, racist. In that order.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Maybe I should put it like that, LISK is a rapist, robber, killer, racist. In that order.

Be careful about jumping to conclusions if you really want to understand him emotionally. IS he a rapist? He doesn't pick women off the street and force himself on them sexually, does he? All of his known victims consented to sex. So do you think he views himself as a rapist? Is he a robber if he takes back his own money? More importantly, do you think he views himself as a robber?

 

[Emre E]

Be careful about jumping to conclusions if you really want to understand him emotionally. IS he a rapist? He doesn't pick women off the street and force himself on them sexually, does he? All of his known victims consented to sex. So do you think he views himself as a rapist? Is he a robber if he takes back his own money? More importantly, do you think he views himself as a robber?

How he views himself? I couldn't care less. Scum of the earth he is.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

How he views himself? I couldn't care less. Scum of the earth he is.

If you don't care how he views himself... if you have no desire to understand him...then why bother to ask this question: "But wouldn't there be at least one woman who is not in the business, if it was just his sexual/emotional needs?" ?

 

[Emre E]

If you don't care how he views himself, then why bother to ask this question: "But wouldn't there be at least one woman who is not in the business, if it was just his sexual/emotional needs?" ?

I'm sorry, I really don't get the point in this discussion.

I'm trying to interpret very scarce bits and pieces of information and come to a meaningful conclusion as to what may have happened. Yes, he's a rapist. In the Gilgo beach what I see is a perp, finding a like in the girls (or maybe he believes petite gals with pretty faces make good money if he is mainly a robber), lures them in his ground, robs them and kills them.

Yes, he may have raped other women who are not prostitutes as well. But obviously did not kill them or at least did not discard them in Gilgo Beach, but I can't build a theory on some hypothetical bodies of non-prostitute women. Should work on what I have, don't you think?

Edit: And by "rob" I mean "rob". He's robbing the girls, not grabbing back his own money.

 

[Theforeigner]

How he views himself? I couldn't care less. Scum of the earth he is.

I do understand your anger reaction, however, if you want to catch this killer, you need to understand how he works as a human being, to understand that you need to put away your hatred and try put yourself in his place, try to sense how he think, how he feel.
(Actually it is the detectives etc who work the case has to do so, if they want to solve this case.)

So, I agree 100% WITH Mountain_Kat's thoughts.

 

[Emre E]

Foreigner of course I'm doing that as well. But how far can you emphasize with someone who's nothing like you.

I've said that in a very early post of mine. Ed Kemper was using severed heads as a masturbation device. You think the detectives could emphasize with that? I don't think so, they just locked him up and it's over.

So, same here with me, I'm just trying to build the person whose actions fits the outcomes we see. That's it. He may buy candies for kids in his neighborhood and thinks he's Robin Hood or something who knows. How he sees himself really does not bother me.

 

[Theforeigner]

I'm sorry, I really don't get the point in this discussion.

I'm trying to interpret very scarce bits and pieces of information and come to a meaningful conclusion as to what may have happened. Yes, he's a rapist. In the Gilgo beach what I see is a perp, finding a like in the girls (or maybe he believes petite gals with pretty faces make good money if he is mainly a robber), lures them in his ground, robs them and kills them.

Yes, he may have raped other women who are not prostitutes as well. But obviously did not kill them or at least did not discard them in Gilgo Beach, but I can't build a theory on some hypothetical bodies of non-prostitute women. Should work on what I have, don't you think?

Edit: And by "rob" I mean "rob". He's robbing the girls, not grabbing back his own money.

I am convinced that robbery has absolutely nothing to do with the LISK crimes, neither do I see him as what you normally call a rapist.
He lure his victims into consensual sex for money, and at some point he take total control over his victim, sadistically torture her, probably including sadistic sexual activity, and finally kill her. Next phase is some kind of ritual dumping plan/procedure.

This is not just some rapist/robber type of guy, his drive and motives for what he is doing are IMHO way more complicated/sophisticated.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I'm sorry, I really don't get the point in this discussion.

I'm trying to interpret very scarce bits and pieces of information and come to a meaningful conclusion as to what may have happened. Yes, he's a rapist. In the Gilgo beach what I see is a perp, finding a like in the girls (or maybe he believes petite gals with pretty faces make good money if he is mainly a robber), lures them in his ground, robs them and kills them.

Yes, he may have raped other women who are not prostitutes as well. But obviously did not kill them or at least did not discard them in Gilgo Beach, but I can't build a theory on some hypothetical bodies of non-prostitute women. Should work on what I have, don't you think?

Edit: And by "rob" I mean "rob". He's robbing the girls, not grabbing back his own money.

If he's basically a robber, then what is his motivation for calling Melissa's kid sister and tormenting her emotionally? If he's a rapist, then why are his 4 known victims women who consent to have sex with him for money? You say you don't care how he views himself, Em. Fair enough, that's your right. My belief is that how he views himself is the key to absolutely everything he does, and why he does it.

 

[Emre E]

If he's basically a robber, then what is his motivation for calling Melissa's kid sister and tormenting her emotionally? If he's a rapist, then why are his 4 known victims women who consent to have sex with him for money? You say you don't care how he views himself, Em. Fair enough, that's your right. My belief is that how he views himself is the key to absolutely everything he does, and why he does it.

My profile perp is African American, probably with whites in his family, maybe his mom. So, sister Amanda is intriguing to him.

4 known victims, consensual sex? That is not my knowledge.

 

[Theforeigner]

Foreigner of course I'm doing that as well. But how far can you emphasize with someone who's nothing like you.

I've said that in a very early post of mine. Ed Kemper was using severed heads as a masturbation device. You think the detectives could emphasize with that? I don't think so, they just locked him up and it's over.

So, same here with me, I'm just trying to build the person whose actions fits the outcomes we see. That's it. He may buy candies for kids in his neighborhood and thinks he's Robin Hood or something who knows. How he sees himself really does not bother me.

Some people are actually capable of putting their own personality aside when necessary to understand how another person works, the absolute best detectives has that ability.

For the rest, just lets agree that we look a bit different on some things

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I am convinced that robbery has absolutely nothing to do with the LISK crimes, neither do I see him as what you normally call a rapist.
He lure his victims into consensual sex for money, and at some point he take total control over his victim, sadistically torture her, probably including sadistic sexual activity, and finally kill her. Next phase is some kind of ritual dumping plan/procedure.

This is not just some rapist/robber type of guy, his drive and motives for what he is doing are IMHO way more complicated/sophisticated.

Absolutely!

Take another look at the list of basic emotional needs, Foreigner, and tell me which ones YOU think motivates him, based on just the facts of this case. I really want to hear your thoughts on this.