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[Emre E]

Some people are actually capable of putting their own personality aside when necessary to understand how another person works, the absolute best detectives has that ability.

For the rest, just lets agree that we look a bit different on some things

Agreed

 

[Emre E]

I am convinced that robbery has absolutely nothing to do with the LISK crimes, neither do I see him as what you normally call a rapist.
He lure his victims into consensual sex for money, and at some point he take total control over his victim, sadistically torture her, probably including sadistic sexual activity, and finally kill her. Next phase is some kind of ritual dumping plan/procedure.

This is not just some rapist/robber type of guy, his drive and motives for what he is doing are IMHO way more complicated/sophisticated.

That's a good theory, and I'm sure you put much more effort on this, than some people who are actually responsible for doing some work on this crime. But they were busy, you know like busy for twenty years associating the word "wood" with "carpenter"

 

[Theforeigner]

Absolutely!

Take another look at the list of basic emotional needs, Foreigner, and tell me which ones YOU think motivates him, based on just the facts of this case. I really want to hear your thoughts on this.

Attention
Sense of autonomy and control
Emotional intimacy
opportunity to reflect and consolidate experience (specifically with my POI in mind)
Sense of competence and achievement (specifically with my POI in mind)

all 5 in a very sick way of course.

Please share which ones you pick?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Foreigner of course I'm doing that as well. But how far can you emphasize with someone who's nothing like you.

I've said that in a very early post of mine. Ed Kemper was using severed heads as a masturbation device. You think the detectives could emphasize with that? I don't think so, they just locked him up and it's over.

So, same here with me, I'm just trying to build the person whose actions fits the outcomes we see. That's it. He may buy candies for kids in his neighborhood and thinks he's Robin Hood or something who knows. How he sees himself really does not bother me.

I don't empathize with LISK, Em. Empathy implies that you can relate to someone.

 

[Emre E]

I don't empathize with LISK, Em. Empathy implies that you can relate to someone.

Just noticed my post reads "emphasize", correct word would be "empathize". Here's a quote from Foreigner "english is not my first language so please bear over with me". Whatever the right word would be, I don't do that, because I know I can't do it beyond certain point. I'm not a professional psychiatrist/psychologist. I'm an engineer. Perhaps, that's why I'm focusing on the outwardly appearance of the crime.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Attention
Sense of autonomy and control
Emotional intimacy
opportunity to reflect and consolidate experience (specifically with my POI in mind)
Sense of competence and achievement (specifically with my POI in mind)

all 5 in a very sick way of course.

Please share which ones you pick?

Bear in mind, I am speaking strictly about the killer of the GB4 here (That is who LISK is to me).

Sense of autonomy and control ~ This is the big one. We see it in everything he did...from the way he carefully selected his victims and drew them in to his web, to the method he chose to kill them (strangulation is one of the most controlled methods of killing. You decide how slowly they die, or even IF they die right away). We see it in his dump site. We see it in the calls to Amanda.

Sense of competence and achievement ~ We see it in the dumpsite, we see it when he brags to Amanda about what he's done to Melissa.

Meaning and purpose~ His victims aren't randomly chosen (again, I'm speaking strictly about the killer of the GB4). He's given himself a goal in terms of physical type. Whether that has some deep meaning, or whether he just chooses to challenge himself, it still feeds his need for meaning and purpose. If he chooses sex workers because he finds them abhorrent in some way (and going by what he said to Amanda, he does) then that too provides him with meaning and purpose. And justification, at least in his mind. It elevates what he does.

Attention ~ He has a need to not only be seen, but to be seen as something extraordinary. If he didn't, he wouldn't bother to make his dumpsite so distinctive (signature), he wouldn't have called Amanda and bragged. He needed SOMEONE to know what he did, and that it wasn't just a run of the mill killing. He chose a witness that could relay his "specialness" to others, without disrupting his need to control the situation. Amanda fit that bill to a T, and the phone satisfied his need to be in control.

Those are the 4 I'm absolutely sure of based on what we know.

 

[Emre E]

Bear in mind, I am speaking strictly about the killer of the GB4 here (That is who LISK is to me).

Sense of autonomy and control ~ This is the big one. We see it in everything he did...from the way he carefully selected his victims and drew them in to his web, to the method he chose to kill them (strangulation is one of the most controlled methods of killing. You decide how slowly they die, or even IF they die right away). We see it in his dump site. We see it in the calls to Amanda.

Sense of competence and achievement ~ We see it in the dumpsite, we see it when he brags to Amanda about what he's done to Melissa.

Meaning and purpose~ His victims aren't randomly chosen (again, I'm speaking strictly about the killer of the GB4). He's given himself a goal in terms of physical type. Whether that has some deep meaning, or whether he just chooses to challenge himself, it still feeds his need for meaning and purpose. If he chooses sex workers because he finds them abhorrent in some way (and going by what he said to Amanda, he does) then that too provides him with meaning and purpose. And justification, at least in his mind. It elevates what he does.

Attention ~ He has a need to not only be seen, but to be seen as something extraordinary. If he didn't, he wouldn't bother to make his dumpsite so distinctive (signature), he wouldn't have called Amanda and bragged. He needed SOMEONE to know what he did, and that it wasn't just a run of the mill killing. He chose a witness that could relay his "specialness" to others, without disrupting his need to control the situation. Amanda fit that bill to a T, and the phone satisfied his need to be in control.

Those are the 4 I'm absolutely sure of based on what we know.

Serious question; why didn't he send Melissa's pinky to her family?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Serious question; why didn't he send Melissa's pinky to her family?

You'd have to ask him that question. But I suspect the answer is because he didn't need to. He accomplished the same thing with a phone call. Also...what satisfaction would he get from sending them a body part if he can't observe their reaction to it?

 

[Emre E]

OK. Here is the super sadistic calculated guy would do. He would cut the pinky and put it in a little box. Send Amanda a text message "I put something for you in the park". Go sit on a bench in the park and watch Amanda's shock and awe making the discovery. How about that?

 

[Emre E]

Serious question again; why didn't he put Melissa on the phone with her sister? Why didn't he send a picture of her in agony? He's just doing some violent sex talk as I understand. Not really torture, not even close to torture. That's what I think. And I'm not trying to put dynamites under your theory. I am genuinely discussing. When it comes to my theory, being precise ... If the guy is caught and gets what he deserves I wouldn't care if he's white or black or sadistic or stupid. my theory.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

OK. Here is the super sadistic calculated guy would do. He would cut the pinky and put it in a little box. Send Amanda a text message "I put something for you in the park". Go sit on a bench in the park and watch Amanda's shock and awe making the discovery. How about that?

Goes against his driving need for competence and control. If he said "I've left something for you in the park", what do you think Amanda would done? Do you think she would have gone? Would she have called the cops? He'd be giving up a lot of control in that scenario, don't you think? Why do you think he chose to call her, and call her from places like Time Square and NYPA? From Melissa's own phone?

 

[LikeAHunter]

Two things I want to point out in this discussion:

1. You can't necessarily understand how he thinks without knowing if he has a personality disorder. Same with school shooters. Same with mass shooters and spree killers. A personality disorder changes everything.

Additionally, you need to take psychopathy into account. Most, if not all, SKs would be considered psychopaths. And psychopaths, often having one or more of the 10 personality disorders, simply don't think like everyone else.

So yes, we need to try to understand their way of thinking. But that is very complicated, because they don't exist on the same plane that most people do. That's why you'll often hear psychologists describe specific serial killers as "inhuman" or "devoid of personality."

2. He is not necessarily raping them, or even having sex with them!! Sexual killers don't usually have sex the way the rest of us do. It is not at all uncommon for them to get their rocks off on the act of killing itself, or some other thing they do to the victims that has a sexual charge for them, even though it seems nonsexual to us.

Consider all this IMO, even though I can site everything I said if I really had to. ;-)

ETA: I wrote this post before while I was sitting in a waiting room, and I'm afraid it's a little sloppy! Two clarifications:
1. When I say that sexual SKs don't usually have sex the way we do, I mean with their victims. Of course they can have "normal" sex, as well.
2. Sorry if I sound a bit rigid in my thinking. I have outside expertise on mental and brain health, and that is what I'm drawing from here.

 

[Emre E]

Goes against his driving need for competence and control. If he said "I've left something for you in the park", what do you think Amanda would done? Do you think she would have gone? Would she have called the cops? He'd be giving up a lot of control in that scenario, don't you think? Why do you think he chose the call her, and call her from places like Time Square and NYPA?

Because he's around the pimps and prostitutes. He's one of them.

 

[Emre E]

Because he's around the pimps and prostitutes. He's one of them.

Did you read the script of the infamous David Parker Ray initiation letter. Did you hear what he was planning to do? That's how you go sadist. And Parker Ray is not a kill addict, at least that's what he tells on the tape. So, this guy is a sadist and what he only does is "I raped your sister, I did this and that to her, I will do this and that to you... she was in soo much and pain and stuff?" That is the least imaginative sadist I've ever heard.

Edit: Sorry, that was posted on my own entry.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Two things I want to point out in this discussion:

1. You can't necessarily understand how he thinks without knowing if he has a personality disorder. Same with school shooters. Same with mass shooters and spree killers. A personality disorder changes everything.

Additionally, you need to take psychopathy into account. Most, if not all, SKs would be considered psychopaths. And psychopaths, often having one or more of the 10 personality disorders, simply don't think like everyone else.

So yes, we need to try to understand their way of thinking. But that is very complicated, because they don't exist on the same plane that most people do. That's why you'll often hear psychologists describe specific serial killers as "inhuman" or "devoid of personality."

2. He is not necessarily raping them, or even having sex with them!! Sexual killers don't usually have sex the way the rest of us do. It is not at all uncommon for them to get their rocks off on the act of killing itself, or some other thing they do to the victims that has a sexual charge for them, even though it seems nonsexual to us.

Consider all this IMO, even though I can site everything I said if I really had to. ;-)

BBM

I assume he does have a personality disorder. Most personality disorders stem from our basic human needs either not being met, or being perverted in some fashion, in childhood or early adolescence.

 

[LikeAHunter]

BBM

I assume he does have a personality disorder. Most personality disorders stem from our basic human needs either not being met, or being perverted in some fashion, in childhood or early adolescence.

That's not necessarily true. Early and repeated traumas certainly can cause damage to the brain's normal mechanism and cause abnormal functioning, but genetics can also be the root cause. And, of course, it can also be a combo--the genes may be there, but something in the environment (possibly trauma, possibly something else) has to switch them on. It's the whole nature vs nurture thing. How much does each play a role? We're not entirely sure!

Either way, someone with Schizotypal PD is going to think differently and have different motivations than someone with Borderline PD.

I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, it's just that this happens to be my area of expertise.

 

[Emre E]

They traced a second phone, that belonged to her ( Melissa), to an ex-con who said he picked it up after a tussle between hookers in Times Square orchestrated by a pimp.

Foreigner, remembered that?

 

[LindsayLohan6]

They traced a second phone, that belonged to her ( Melissa), to an ex-con who said he picked it up after a tussle between hookers in Times Square orchestrated by a pimp.

Foreigner, remembered that?

That always struck me as significant! A tussle orchestrated by a pimp? Wtf is that? Some kind of hooker fight club? I actually had the chance to ask two midtown South Precicnt detectives about this case a few years ago. I brought up this phone and how Melissa worked in Midtown South Precinct while JT and MBB where last seen there. Still the Detectives said their Pct has abosulotely zero to do with this case at all and all the jurisdiction falls where the body was.

 

[Theforeigner]

They traced a second phone, that belonged to her ( Melissa), to an ex-con who said he picked it up after a tussle between hookers in Times Square orchestrated by a pimp.

Foreigner, remembered that?

Jep! and I really would like to know the name of the guy who claimed he found the phone, also the names of the prostitutes involved in the incident.
Also want to know the exact date/time he alleged found the phone.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

That's not necessarily true. Early and repeated traumas certainly can cause damage to the brain's normal mechanism and cause abnormal functioning, but genetics can also be the root cause. And, of course, it can also be a combo--the genes may be there, but something in the environment (possibly trauma, possibly something else) has to switch them on. It's the whole nature vs nurture thing. How much does each play a role? We're not entirely sure!

Either way, someone with Schizotypal PD is going to think differently and have different motivations than someone with Borderline PD.

I hope I'm not coming off as a know-it-all, it's just that this happens to be my area of expertise.

You've never come off as a know it all to me, Hunter. I find your posts informative, thoughtful and thought provoking.

I hope I don't come of as a know it all, either. Sometimes my delivery can be a bit overbearing, especially when I get lost in a thought.