Post your PROFILE

[OnTheCase27]

I definitely feel like these women were more vulnerable than a typical person which could have lead them to leaving their guard down.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I definitely feel like these women were more vulnerable than a typical person which could have lead them to leaving their guard down.

More vulnerable than other women who work in the sex industry, or just more vulnerable than most people in general?

 

[deedee21]

I wonder why the LISK picked the GB 4. Maybe they never meet him but he knew what they looked liked. Then he contacts them when he iwas ready to kill them. Remember Amber was contacted and asked go to the same hotel MW was last seen. She declined. The killer would have had her walk out of camera view also. He got her on another night instead.

 

[OnTheCase27]

More vulnerable than other women who work in the sex industry, or just more vulnerable than most people in general?

Most people in general certainly. But also more vulnerable than other women in the sex industry. They are not as vulnerable as street corner prostitutes but certainly more vulnerable than company style escorts that record clients information.

So why does LISK not pick up street corner prostitutes? Well he could have standards which would make sense since all four women were probably more attractive physically and mentally than street corner girls. A street corner girl could have been too easy for him. He probably wanted a more challenging situation.

 

[Samantha Spade]

I think he is a new york based drug dealer/serial killer. even if some of the girls didnt use drugs themselves, they may have purchased them for their clients.

That is just my gut feeling based on no evidence to support it whatsoever.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I am beginnihg to think he does develop a relationship with them. Amber was his quickest mental offense I think. He makes sure these girls arent backed by any type of organization. Makes sure they are all depserate. He reads people well. Well enough in his last confirm Kill he was able to do it in less than 24 hours over the phon


one was a dope fiend, one jsut got robbed, one was under abusinve AK etc etc.

What do you guys think?

I wouldn't call stalking "building a relationship". But at least, we are back now, where we were in about January 2011. He knows his victims and much more than by just acquaintance. This indicates stalking. Stalking doesn't mean, the victim is aware of. Building a relationship would mean exactly that, unless the killer is delusional enough to build up the imagination of a relationship (like erotomanics do). However, this degree of obsession and delusion would be contradictory to the degree of organization he showed.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I wonder why the LISK picked the GB 4. Maybe they never meet him but he knew what they looked liked. Then he contacts them when he iwas ready to kill them. Remember Amber was contacted and asked go to the same hotel MW was last seen. She declined. The killer would have had her walk out of camera view also. He got her on another night instead.

But that still leaves us with the question of why Amber and Megan would leave their cell phones behind. In the case of Amber, DS told her to take her cell phone and Amber replied, "No, that's not what he wants." Now, if this were just some regular John she had never met, didn't know, didn't trust, why on earth would she do that? Even the offer of a large sum of money wouldn't have been enough to have prompted her to let down her guard to that extent, imo, because how does she know the guy is even going to come across with the money?

If he's just a stalker from afar, and he doesn't build a relationship with this women, why do they break character for him? Amber did in calls, with DS in the next room to crack down on any guy that got rough. But this time, she does an outcall, with a guy she doesn't know, and agrees to leave her phone behind? Uh uh. No way. Megan already had a room booked for incalls, but the night she goes missing, she leaves her room, and her phone behind, and wanders off, alone, at 1:30 in the morning (!!) to hook up with a guy she's never met? I don't buy that for one second.

JMO

(Sorry for the somewhat off topic post. But it does tie into the question of vulnerability, because it's these girls personal weaknesses that he uses to get them to let down their guard. Again, jmo.)

 

[Peter Brendt]

I don't know that I'd agree that all of his victims were desperate, per say, but I do agree that they all possessed weaknesses he was able to zero in on. DS once commented that he felt like LISK hunted these women...that he could smell them like a predator smells a dying gazelle (paraphrasing). In my mind, that analogy is so spot on it sends chills down my spine.

In the case of Melissa, we know that her pimp/boyfriend, JT, was physically abusive. If we are to believe JT, Melissa was no stranger to LI. According to him, she regularly hung out there with a girlfriend, who also worked as an escort, and an older white man whom she had become "chummy" with. And, according to him, she was very secretive about where she was going the night she disappeared. We also know, from Melissa's little sister, that her killer knew ALOT about Melissa. I don't, for one minute, believe LISK got all that information from Melissa's cell phone alone. He knew her and got her talking, imo. Sniffing out the dying gazelle, so to speak. It's no stretch to imagine that Melissa developed enough trust with this guy to discuss her dreams, her fears, her love for her little sister, her displeasure with her relationship with Terry, etc.

In the case of Megan, her boyfriend/pimp was also physically abusive. BY all accounts Megan genuinely loved the guy, but Megan was immature and niave, imo. AK played her like a fiddle. If memory serves, Megan had expressed hopes of AK marrying her...but we see THAT never happened. We also know that Megan came from the parent of an alcoholic, and herself drank. I think she desperately wanted to be loved. Dying gazelle. LISK could smell it from a mile away, imo.

In the case of Amber...the weaknesses are obvious. Not only was she a heroin addict, but she hated what she had to do to support that habit. And we know that when she was in Florida, she had spent alot of time trying to reconnect with her christian faith. How do you reconcile who you are with what you've become when the 2 are so different? In my opinion...Amber's self esteem was so low, she just gave up and stopped fighting. LISK probably didn't have to even bother to smell her...she was already on her last legs. It was obvious to anyone with 1/2 a brain. But the question is...DID he bother to court her, or was it a one shot deal? I think he did court her. We know that Amber turned down a "date" with someone who wanted her to meet him at the same Express Holiday Inn where Megan had gone missing. Now, we don't know that this person was LISK, but I'd bet you my farm that it was. And IF it was, Amber had at least talked to the guy BEFORE the day she went missing. For all we know, she might have seen him professionally prior to that last day, and simply not shared that with anyone. We just don't know.

In the case of Maureen...she had dreams of become a model. And, according to her sister, she only did escort work when she desperately needed money. The last weekend she was working, she desperately needed money, because she was about to be evicted. She had been robbed earlier in the day on the 9th(?), but had gotten the money back. Still, she was calling friends and family for a ride home, rather than take the train, because she didn't want to spend the money. We know that she had already checked out of her hotel room when she called looking for a ride home, so we can assume work was over in her mind. Unless, of course, she had planned to meet a client somewhere else, but that would have been VERY unusual for her, since she NEVER did outcalls. But according to Mel, Maureen did know alot of people in NY. I have no idea if these people were all friends, or if some of them were repeat clients, but let's assume for a moment that at least ONE of them was a repeat client. Would she have beared her soul to him? Told him she had fallen on hard times, was about to be evicted, needed a ride back to CT? I don't know. We know from Mel that Maureen was VERY chatty. It's not a stretch to assume she did know LISK and bore her soul to him.

ALL MOO (and no, I don't have a degree in psychology).

ETA: Pardon the sloppy writing. It's early and I'm only half way into my first cup of coffee.

1.) I intend to steal your "half through the first coffee" excuse and make extensive use of it.

2.) To smell out a vulnerable victim is kind of basic skill set for predators with any kind of anti-social personality disorder. It's more instinctive in most cases. And it doesn't need a long relationship. Any psychopath, any sociopath, learns early in his youth to simulate normal behavior. To do so, they notice the smallest detail. It's kind of automatic self-training. Of course, the high IQ ones are better at it than the low IQ ones, but the difference isn't that much in noticing the details, the difference is in interpreting them.
So, LISK smelled vulnerabilities like a predator a wounded pray. That doesn't even make scratch my head once. It's natural to them. Ted Bundy (one of my favorite examples because everyone has heard of him) noticed, that Susan Rancourt didn't move as certain as other people. A little slower, a little less straight a line. It wasn't much. But it told him, this target had a weakness. That target was an easy prey. Susan Rancourt didn't see the next morning. She had forgot her glasses in her dorm room when she went to the campus laundry. No previous relationship, Bundy didn't even know her. 16 year old Melissa Smith, at a pizza place, appeared just a little sidetracked, a little absent. Bundy didn't know it, but she was in her mind with her bff and some boy trouble this bff was involved. Nothing unusual at the age of 16. But it made her distracted, an easy target. He held her alive for some days, the ME report reads like the comprehensive analysis of human sex practices. And in those days, he learned everything that there was to know about Melissa. Including the fact, that he had snatched the local sheriff's daughter.
So, there is no "relationship" needed to spy out a vulnerable victim. Psychopathic SKs do it all over the world on daily base.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

1.) I intend to steal your "half through the first coffee" excuse and make extensive use of it.

2.) To smell out a vulnerable victim is kind of basic skill set for predators with any kind of anti-social personality disorder. It's more instinctive in most cases. And it doesn't need a long relationship. Any psychopath, any sociopath, learns early in his youth to simulate normal behavior. To do so, they notice the smallest detail. It's kind of automatic self-training. Of course, the high IQ ones are better at it than the low IQ ones, but the difference isn't that much in noticing the details, the difference is in interpreting them.
So, LISK smelled vulnerabilities like a predator a wounded pray. That doesn't even make scratch my head once. It's natural to them. Ted Bundy (one of my favorite examples because everyone has heard of him) noticed, that Susan Rancourt didn't move as certain as other people. A little slower, a little less straight a line. It wasn't much. But it told him, this target had a weakness. That target was an easy prey. Susan Rancourt didn't see the next morning. She had forgot her glasses in her dorm room when she went to the campus laundry. No previous relationship, Bundy didn't even know her. 16 year old Melissa Smith, at a pizza place, appeared just a little sidetracked, a little absent. Bundy didn't know it, but she was in her mind with her bff and some boy trouble this bff was involved. Nothing unusual at the age of 16. But it made her distracted, an easy target. He held her alive for some days, the ME report reads like the comprehensive analysis of human sex practices. And in those days, he learned everything that there was to know about Melissa. Including the fact, that he had snatched the local sheriff's daughter.
So, there is no "relationship" needed to spy out a vulnerable victim. Psychopathic SKs do it all over the world on daily base.

But there is a big difference between Bundy's victims and LISK's victims. LISK's victims had very definite, individual weaknesses, but they were all involved in a business they knew was high risk. These were not niave woman who were pounced on by a predator while going about their everyday lives. These were woman who were seeing clients, in a very dangerous work environment, and they were not stupid or blind to the dangers.

As for the "halfway through the first coffee" excuse...help yourself.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I definitely feel like these women were more vulnerable than a typical person which could have lead them to leaving their guard down.

There is vulnerable and there is obvious vulnerable. See, when Maureen was at this bus terminal, she wasn't that easy to spot as a prostitute. By all means, she was just a woman late at night at the bus terminal. So only a stalker could have known, she worked occasionally as a prostitute (and for sure had no intention to do so this night anymore, she had called friends to get a ride home after she was mugged).
But exactly there is the rub. She was chatty (we know that form Mel), she was upset (which made her even chattier on the phone). And the terminal was pretty empty at this time of the night. So it was easy to spot, she was vulnerable. Now given the level of organization, LISK showed over all, I still think, he is a stalker type. However, there she is, his intended victim. And obviously, she is in a vulnerable state of mind, in an area without many potential witnesses. So, she is ready NOW and that is when he stroke.

With his Melissa Barthelmy, he shows already more routine. Assuming, he is a stalker, he probably stalked her to the client and back and got her before she could enter the house with the apartment of her bf/pimp. But try to imagine the details here. It's late, she is tired, she is not so observant as maybe earlier in the evening. Maybe, depending on the client and his demands, she is upset, disgusted. Even more distracted. In other words, her body language, her way to move, it shows vulnerability and that gives the attacker the signal to strike.

And so it goes on and on. The keyword here appears to me to be "visible vulnerability"

 

[Peter Brendt]

I wonder why the LISK picked the GB 4. Maybe they never meet him but he knew what they looked liked. Then he contacts them when he iwas ready to kill them. Remember Amber was contacted and asked go to the same hotel MW was last seen. She declined. The killer would have had her walk out of camera view also. He got her on another night instead.

Here is the point: The idea, LISK contacted his victims in any way before striking is a mere assumption. It is contradictory to the chain of events in the case of Maureen. And for a stalker type, there is no need to contact them anyway. He can snatch them whenever he wants. Late at night on the way back from a store, from a client, at a bus terminal, wherever their way leads them. He is always there, he can do what he wants. Which is the inherent feeling of power coming from stalking in the first place.
The beauty in this is, from the killer's point of view, that a whole world of gullible people think, the killer has to be one of the regular clients contacting those escorts. And even if police would not find a common denominator in form of a common client, everyone would still look at those cell phones like hypnotized rabbits. Even better, since stalking leads out of the hunting ground, the killer can pick up on victims in a very limited narrow and therefore overview-able comfort zone and snatch them somewhere else. There is no way, to pinpoint this hunting ground with regular geographic profiling. So, IMO, this explains the how. The why, that is even more part of the deeper profiling and I caught enough fire for doing that. Someone even started a poll to change face shapes of the victims just to go down another road.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Most people in general certainly. But also more vulnerable than other women in the sex industry. They are not as vulnerable as street corner prostitutes but certainly more vulnerable than company style escorts that record clients information.

So why does LISK not pick up street corner prostitutes? Well he could have standards which would make sense since all four women were probably more attractive physically and mentally than street corner girls. A street corner girl could have been too easy for him. He probably wanted a more challenging situation.

LISK can't just pick up street corner prostitutes. His even nastier competitor from Manorville can. All he needs is a body and the fear in their eyes while he dismembers them. Easy to fulfill requirements.
LISK on the other had, he has requirements, that go beyond that. Certain visual parameters (and like every SK, he has to go by what he sees, not what people dug out years later about the family history). His victims are female, Caucasian in appearance. They are not too tall, but small to average. And then, there seems to be a behavioral component. Something in their behavior, that (negative) attracts him. Even more, when he stalks them. The stalking probably begins with the Craigslist ads, the photos there. Probably also the text of the ads. When I look at the Gilgo Beach dump site, I see a trophy collector. Now trophies have to have an inherent value to the collector or they are worthless and therefore useless to him. One hangs the head of a stag or a bear over the fireplace, not a rat or a gerbil. So, those women have that inherent value to him, not as individuals, but as type, and they have to have it when they are still alive.

 

[Peter Brendt]

But that still leaves us with the question of why Amber and Megan would leave their cell phones behind. In the case of Amber, DS told her to take her cell phone and Amber replied, "No, that's not what he wants." Now, if this were just some regular John she had never met, didn't know, didn't trust, why on earth would she do that? Even the offer of a large sum of money wouldn't have been enough to have prompted her to let down her guard to that extent, imo, because how does she know the guy is even going to come across with the money?

She couldn't know, unless this client was a regular customer. And I asked a little around, it seems not to be so unusual that customers ask prostitutes to come without a cell phone or leave it in the car. Because too many clients have been disturbed by calls incoming on the girl's phone and some girls even had the stupid idea to take pics and blackmail clients later. Not in the LISK case as far as I know, more in general.
The misunderstanding is, there is not one hint, the caller was LISK. Opposite so, all detail point out, this caller was a regular client, one of the kind who wanted it to make more probably. The stalker was out there, he only knew, Amber left. And late in the night, Amber returned. Tired, maybe upset, not so observant, not so alert. So he strikes before she gets in the house.

If he's just a stalker from afar, and he doesn't build a relationship with this women, why do they break character for him? Amber did in calls, with DS in the next room to crack down on any guy that got rough. But this time, she does an outcall, with a guy she doesn't know, and agrees to leave her phone behind? Uh uh. No way. Megan already had a room booked for incalls, but the night she goes missing, she leaves her room, and her phone behind, and wanders off, alone, at 1:30 in the morning (!!) to hook up with a guy she's never met? I don't buy that for one second.

Again: None of those girls ever broke character for him. He was only there, right in the right place to profit from their regular activities to take advantage of a vulnerability. DS said, she knew the guy. It was a regular. So lets for a moment assume, DS said what he said and not construct something about a guy, Amber knew but didn't know at the same time. So, she lets herself talk into driving out to a regular. At some point, she had to come back. It's dark, she returns to a location, the stalker knows (the street in which the house is, she lived in), at this time of the night without many potential witnesses. No breaking character needed, just a good shot of Ketamine, a hit over the head or a rug with ether.

JMO

(Sorry for the somewhat off topic post. But it does tie into the question of vulnerability, because it's these girls personal weaknesses that he uses to get them to let down their guard. Again, jmo.)

It's not so much about "personal" weaknesses. A risky lifestyle, and all kinds of prostitution are risky, even to different degrees, is one thing. It raises potential risk. But what those killers look for, what they are so good in noticing and acting on is temporal weakness. Emotional distraction, drunken or stoned, maybe injured. They are actually a lot like predators in nature. A lion knows of course, gazelles are edible. Which increases the potential risk for any gazelle. But what makes him chose a certain gazelle?
He doesn't make them let their guard down. Maybe a little, but given the scenes, I would imagine, he could do without big ruses anyway. Most of what he does is going in when their guard is down anyway.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

There is vulnerable and there is obvious vulnerable. See, when Maureen was at this bus terminal, she wasn't that easy to spot as a prostitute. By all means, she was just a woman late at night at the bus terminal. So only a stalker could have known, she worked occasionally as a prostitute (and for sure had no intention to do so this night anymore, she had called friends to get a ride home after she was mugged).
But exactly there is the rub. She was chatty (we know that form Mel), she was upset (which made her even chattier on the phone). And the terminal was pretty empty at this time of the night. So it was easy to spot, she was vulnerable. Now given the level of organization, LISK showed over all, I still think, he is a stalker type. However, there she is, his intended victim. And obviously, she is in a vulnerable state of mind, in an area without many potential witnesses. So, she is ready NOW and that is when he stroke.

With his Melissa Barthelmy, he shows already more routine. Assuming, he is a stalker, he probably stalked her to the client and back and got her before she could enter the house with the apartment of her bf/pimp. But try to imagine the details here. It's late, she is tired, she is not so observant as maybe earlier in the evening. Maybe, depending on the client and his demands, she is upset, disgusted. Even more distracted. In other words, her body language, her way to move, it shows vulnerability and that gives the attacker the signal to strike.

And so it goes on and on. The keyword here appears to me to be "visible vulnerability"

How do you know that Maureen was snatched from the bus terminal? Perhaps she finally found a ride with someone she knew (or thought she knew). Perhaps she recieved a call from a regular, offering a good deal of money, and she decided to take him up on the offer. There are alot of possibilities as to what could have happened. We don't know. But just because Maureen's last KNOWN location was the bus terminal doesn't neccesarily mean that that's where she encountered her killer. And I think we would serve Maureen better if we didn't fall into a pattern of making assumptions.

JMO

 

[Mountain_Kat]

She couldn't know, unless this client was a regular customer. And I asked a little around, it seems not to be so unusual that customers ask prostitutes to come without a cell phone or leave it in the car. Because too many clients have been disturbed by calls incoming on the girl's phone and some girls even had the stupid idea to take pics and blackmail clients later. Not in the LISK case as far as I know, more in general.
The misunderstanding is, there is not one hint, the caller was LISK. Opposite so, all detail point out, this caller was a regular client, one of the kind who wanted it to make more probably. The stalker was out there, he only knew, Amber left. And late in the night, Amber returned. Tired, maybe upset, not so observant, not so alert. So he strikes before she gets in the house.



Again: None of those girls ever broke character for him. He was only there, right in the right place to profit from their regular activities to take advantage of a vulnerability. DS said, she knew the guy. It was a regular. So lets for a moment assume, DS said what he said and not construct something about a guy, Amber knew but didn't know at the same time. So, she lets herself talk into driving out to a regular. At some point, she had to come back. It's dark, she returns to a location, the stalker knows (the street in which the house is, she lived in), at this time of the night without many potential witnesses. No breaking character needed, just a good shot of Ketamine, a hit over the head or a rug with ether.


It's not so much about "personal" weaknesses. A risky lifestyle, and all kinds of prostitution are risky, even to different degrees, is one thing. It raises potential risk. But what those killers look for, what they are so good in noticing and acting on is temporal weakness. Emotional distraction, drunken or stoned, maybe injured. They are actually a lot like predators in nature. A lion knows of course, gazelles are edible. Which increases the potential risk for any gazelle. But what makes him chose a certain gazelle?
He doesn't make them let their guard down. Maybe a little, but given the scenes, I would imagine, he could do without big ruses anyway. Most of what he does is going in when their guard is down anyway.

There are so many points I could argue in this post that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

But where did you read that DS said this guy was a regular? Because I've never read that anywhere.

 

[ps149]

But that still leaves us with the question of why Amber and Megan would leave their cell phones behind. In the case of Amber, DS told her to take her cell phone and Amber replied, "No, that's not what he wants." Now, if this were just some regular John she had never met, didn't know, didn't trust, why on earth would she do that? Even the offer of a large sum of money wouldn't have been enough to have prompted her to let down her guard to that extent, imo, because how does she know the guy is even going to come across with the money?

If he's just a stalker from afar, and he doesn't build a relationship with this women, why do they break character for him? Amber did in calls, with DS in the next room to crack down on any guy that got rough. But this time, she does an outcall, with a guy she doesn't know, and agrees to leave her phone behind? Uh uh. No way. Megan already had a room booked for incalls, but the night she goes missing, she leaves her room, and her phone behind, and wanders off, alone, at 1:30 in the morning (!!) to hook up with a guy she's never met? I don't buy that for one second.

JMO

(Sorry for the somewhat off topic post. But it does tie into the question of vulnerability, because it's these girls personal weaknesses that he uses to get them to let down their guard. Again, jmo.)

100% AC is the only victim we know left for a date without a phone and refused to bring one.

For MW, we do not have any proof how many phones she owned nor do we have any proof that she refused to take a cell phone with her. We only have the assumption that since her cell phone was found in her room that she was instructed not to take it with her. For all we know, the cell phone that the investigators found was her legit phone. Otherwise, would we not have heard feedback from them about the last calls/texts that the phone received from clients?

 

[Peter Brendt]

But there is a big difference between Bundy's victims and LISK's victims. LISK's victims had very definite, individual weaknesses, but they were all involved in a business they knew was high risk. These were not niave woman who were pounced on by a predator while going about their everyday lives. These were woman who were seeing clients, in a very dangerous work environment, and they were not stupid or blind to the dangers.

As for the "halfway through the first coffee" excuse...help yourself.

Now, where is a coffee mug smiley when I need one?
Can we agree, all four known LISK victims were human? Can we further agree, all four of them were female? Because nothing more is needed.
See, opposite to the Bundy victims, they worked in a risky environment and knew it. So all constructions like "left her phone back to meet with a client she didn't know" are basically unlikely, desperate attempts to make a theory credible, which is not credible due to too many contradictions to the facts we know to start with.
Now, meeting with Johns, that was their normal life. They were not out of their normal life, only their "normal" was different from the "normal" of Bundy's victims (well, most of them). Their normal was more extreme. Now we know other professions with inherent risks. Cops, firefighters, soldiers, sometimes paramedics because in some gun free zones you never know whether people are done shooting when you arrive to care for the injured.
Now, what do those people, right the first minute after another shift ends? They relax. Cops maybe visit the local waterhole, others go home. Firefighter, go home, go to the movies with a girl friend (or bf if they are female firefighters).
I have an even more extreme example. WWII submariners. Know, that was a freaking dangerous job, much more risky than being a Craigslist prostitute. And those men were aware of it, every minute. But then, the last day of a patrol, they relaxed. They were nearly home. They had survived another tour. Did you know, about one third of all WWII submarines were sunk the last day of the patrols, the harbor almost in sight? Because they let the guard down. Did you know, almost as many police officers are shot off duty than during their duty hours? And so on and so on. Because humans under stress relax when they think, they left the danger zone. And they relax to the extreme, letting their guard down. Which makes humans most vulnerable right when they think, they are out of risk. Melissa, when she approached the house in the Bronx, maybe the key already in hand. Amber, the very same. Honestly, what could happen there? She was almost at home again. And that is, when a stalker sees, she is distracted, tired, ready to be taken. And statistically, females, regardless of profession, put a lot more stress in terms like "at home". So especially coming home amplifies this effect for female victims. So there it is.

 

[Peter Brendt]

There are so many points I could argue in this post that I wouldn't even know where to begin.

But where did you read that DS said this guy was a regular? Because I've never read that anywhere.

You have read it a lot of times. The older guy from Long Island, Amber got "chummy" with? Really, just look a little up this thread, I will not search out again which of the links posted about this over the last two years are still working. We had this like a dozen times already.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

100% AC is the only victim we know left for a date without a phone and refused to bring one.

For MW, we do not have any proof how many phones she owned nor do we have any proof that she refused to take a cell phone with her. We only have the assumption that since her cell phone was found in her room that she was instructed not to take it with her. For all we know, the cell phone that the investigators found was her legit phone. Otherwise, would we not have heard feedback from them about the last calls/texts that the phone received from clients?

Point taken.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

You have read it a lot of times. The older guy from Long Island, Amber got "chummy" with? Really, just look a little up this thread, I will not search out again which of the links posted about this over the last two years are still working. We had this like a dozen times already.

It was JT who said that Melissa had gotten chummy with an older guy on LI. So if you've "had this like a dozen times already", then you've had it wrong a dozen times.

Before you get all superior in tone with another poster, you might want to get YOUR facts straightened out, Peter. Just sayin'.