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IMO Lisa's body was in the shed for a while, or the piece of carpet that was in the shed had some indication of her remains on it. CSI took the rolled up carpet from the shed per Cynthia Short, and they spent a considerable amount of time digging around the shed.
 
I am just hoping and praying Baby Lisa is alive and well somewhere. I would prefer the baby was sold to a loving couple to even think about another beautiful dead baby. The night the news had DB weeping and crying my husband looked at me and asked 'who does that remind you of ... I replied Susan Smith." And after our recent debacle in Florida I don't want to even consider that precious baby wrapped in a trash bag and dumped somewhere.

I know selling babies is against the law but I just want baby Lisa to be alive and well. All the recent baby/children murders is killing me. It may not make sense but it's like my heart is heavy from the pain when their beautiful lives are taken away.
 
IMO Lisa's body was in the shed for a while, or the piece of carpet that was in the shed had some indication of her remains on it. CSI took the rolled up carpet from the shed per Cynthia Short, and they spent a considerable amount of time digging around the shed.

OK, now I'm hearing that CSI may not have taken this carpet, they may have just rolled it out, looked at it, then put it back. :waiting:
 
OK, now I'm hearing that CSI may not have taken this carpet, they may have just rolled it out, looked at it, then put it back. :waiting:

Yep. We don't know for sure what LE did inside that house or what all they ended up taking (and why). We only know what they didn't do (destroy the house) and what they didn't take (top layer of loose carpeting in the bedroom, at least the part shown with the defense attorney in the GMA video). LE could have taken a mountain of other evidence from around the floor of the parents' bed and/or an area rug covering the whole bed area in the parents' room for all we know.

The GMA video tells us very little except what the defense attorney wanted us to see, imo.
 
I think the key to this is what the neighbor told LE. They descended on that house once the MK interview came out. We have all assumed that it was because LE didn't know that DB was drunk.

I don't think that is what they reacted to at all.

I think that the neighbor a) never saw Lisa while she was there and/or b) she didn't stay til 10/10:30pm (I wouldn't have stayed at a friends house with my 4 year old - that could potentially have pre-k the next or have to get up early to go to daycare) . I think she left earlier, I think that is what police jumped on. I also wonder if the neighbor ever saw the kitten. If JI didn't know about it and DB didn't go anywhere, where the hell did the cat come from?

I think SHE left the house to get rid of evidence and found the cat on the way home. a distraction tool perhaps. She may have left the boys alone while she did it (she certainly can't ask someone to watch the kids can she) and when she got home one or both woke up (nightmare?) and she gave them the kitten as a consolation prize.

The boys had to have seen Lisa before they went to bed (or at least before she went to bed) or the police would have been all over it. So it had to have happened before JI went to work, IMO.

I think she chucked the phones, with the baby before he got home, came home, turned all the lights and woke up one or both of the boys in the process and just went to bed. I bet those phones were gone before her son ended up in bed with her.
 
Indepmo:
In the last year or so, i often thought about where i would place my 2 sweet Labs when they pass. Of course, every time i think of this at all, i break out in tears. I know i would not want to bury or leave them at the home i currently live, for fear i would move some day. I often think that i would bring them to the place that we walk and swim, the place they love more than anywhere they have ever been. This is the beach near my home. I heartbreakingly agree that Lisa most likely passed that dreadful night. I just cant wrap my head around two parents allowing her to be put into a dirty, muddy, mirky river. I agree this is a great place to "dispose" of some dirty thing you want to hide, but i just cant wrap my head around doing so to this beautiful, seemingly happy, well dressed, well cared for sweet baby girl. I think you make a great case. But i cant help wondering (praying) that these parents - who seem to be good parents to the other children- would place her in a more sentimental place. Maybe i live in a fantasy world, as my career involves caring for the sickest of the sick, but i can only hope that baby Lisa was placed in a place of sentiment. Do you think there was a place baby Lisa loved in that area, a place she was taken often, that she may now lay? :candle:
 
Hi There, I think the mom in her drunken state, forgot what time she gave Lisa cough/cold medicine and gave her an extra dose or 2. I think the mom passed out and only awoke when JI came home and they both discovered the baby was dead, and the cover up began. MOO
 
Newbie here. I have two daughters, one is almost 5 and the other 3 months. The Casey Anthony debacle and now Lisa's disappearance really hit home for me. I really feel that she is no longer alive, and her mother's negligence is to blame.

First of all DB's reactions are troubling to me. I would be HYSTERICAL, weeping uncontrollably, and begging LE to do whatever it took to find my baby. I realize people react in different ways to shocking events, but it seems like she is concerned about how LE is targeting her instead of trying to figure out what happened.

She is drinking 5 glasses of wine and becoming blacked out drunk when she's the only person caring for three young children. That's negligence. It's not as though she was enjoying a glass of wine with dinner. Plus her child is sick. I know that when my child is ill I'm very attentive to their needs, and I would never allow myself to be so intoxicated as to not be able to care for them.

Why would an abductor take the cell phones and turn on the lights? Just doesn't make sense at all.

The dogs smelled a dead body. I trust those K9s. I have a beagle, and his nose has super smelling powers.

What I think happened is that DB brought Lisa to bed with her. I know many times I let my older daughter sleep in our bed, because she had issues with sleeping on her own and this is especially true with a sick kid. She probably passed out, and Lisa suffocated in the comforter. SIDS is still seen in children up to a year and sometimes even older. Many times an underlying condition like illness or infection can increase the risk of SIDS. DB woke up around midnight and found her not breathing, put her on the floor beside the bed to try CPR. She then panicked and called someone for help, and either that person or both of them buried Lisa. The other son heard commotion, woke up, and DB brought him to her bed and quickly tried to go back to sleep like nothing happened.
 
Initially, I was on the fence in this case. But then when DB's story changed and she claimed she was drunk that night............I was no longer on the fence. Mark Klaas always says, "the truth never changes", and I agree.

At this point, I believe that DB neglected to check on baby Lisa and when she finally did, found her deceased. The logical thing to do would be to call 911 and get paramedics there immediately, but because she had been drinking and wasn't thinking with any sort of logic, and feared that if paramedics found her drunk with a deceased child, she would be charged with child neglect, she disposed of the baby or had someone else dispose of her. I'm not sure that someone who had been drinking could dispose of a body and do so with such efficiency that LE can't find the body. So, I'm presuming that there had to be someone else involved.

As an alternate theory, it's possible that something happened earlier in the day or even the day before. In that case, I wouldn't exclude JI from being involved. It might explain DB's drinking too...........getting drunk after the fact - once whatever happened had been taken care of. Self medicating with alcohol.

I've been concerned with the witness sightings of a man with a baby in the wee hours of the morning. If it had been only one witness, that could be dismissed as a mistaken sighting. But with three witnesses, it makes it difficult to dismiss the possibility that there was a man carrying a baby. All three witnesses state that the baby only had a diaper on. Could they have witnessed someone carrying the baby in the process of disposing of her?

I think there's two things that are key to solving this case:

1. The missing cell phones.

2. The authorities interviewing the two boys.
 
Indepmo, thank you! So far I have yet to read any news discussing the Missouri River, your post is enlightening to say the least!

I had no idea that the MR was so close to their home.

Sadly, the mother/father/perp/s, know only too well (given the Casey Anthony debacle) that one should never stash a body in the vicinity of the house/home area. The MR would be the site :( .

While I am not one to agree with conspiracy theories, I know some have stated that Lisa could have been dead prior to her mother's supermarket appearance. Therefore, perhaps given the lessons' learnt from CA's mistakes, the perp could have staged this camera appearance too? Sigh.
 
I don't know if anyone else has said this, but I am thinking that whatever happened didn't happen that night. It could have happened that weekend and they made plans to make things as confusing as possible. What with her being drunk and not being able to remember anything and him working, it seems on the surface they have alibis.
 
I wonder if it couldn't be a similar scenario to what is put forth about the Abeyta baby ... that JI's half sentence about infidelity is relevant, that perhaps DB was with someone she shouldn't have been that night. Multiple dysfunctional adults, and someone does have Lisa alive. If DB is an "attention hound" and knows who has her baby, even though they took her without permission and to be cruel, she might be not as worried as she should/could be, and perhaps doesn't want to get them in trouble. So is not being as forthcoming to the police as she should be, for multiple reasons. And JI is in denial or scared? I suspect he is suspicious but if he's always been brushed off with lies cannot start standing up to it all now.
 
Seeing the video with the two bunkbeds makes me really wonder if Lisa fell from the top bunk and her neck was broken. The reason I think this is entirely possible is that my baby sister fell from the top bunk of my brothers' bunk beds onto a hardwood floor and had to be taken to the ER. She had a concussion.
 
Plaidmom's Crackpot Theory #2
***************

So in my first theory, I go with stranger abduction. It kind of ties in with some of the "mystery man" sightings we are seeing. I also would question whether or not that was the same man all along. I was thinking that perhaps Lisa was "passed off" (at least once, perhaps more?) during the night.

Theory # 2 takes into account the new cadaver dog findings.

"The Parent(s) Did It."

This seems to be a popular view. Only a huge percentage of WSers seem to pin the blame solely on the mom.

However, there have been a few, compelling, reasons to wonder if in fact Lisa Irwin was deceased earlier than first expected. Say Sunday evening or sometime during the day Monday (before Jeremy Irwin left for work).

IF, that is the case, my focus suddenly shifts from "Mom" and onto "Dad".

JI's comments about a "woman who would cheat on her husband" (I'm paraphrasing here) are intersting. DB IS, technically, cheating on her husband. Her legal husband is serving in Iraq.

I wonder if JI ever questioned her loyalty? Her fidelity, her character? I wonder if he ever swabbed baby Lisa's mouth and sent that swab away for DNA testing???

What IF JI found out that Lisa was not biologically "his"? That makes some men very very angry.

I've also considered reports that JI's custody battle was "ruthless". Many are. It is still somewhat rare for men in this country to gain custody.

IF JI killed Lisa in a fit of rage, he could hold the custody of DB's biological son over her head for compliance.

He may have even brought home the kitten to keep her (and the boys) "happy".

Guns have been found in the home. Cellphones...gone. She doesn't drive. Does she have a car? She's a SAHM. Even though DB appears assertive on camera...everything I've listed will imply being cut off from the outside world. Classic signs of an abusing controller.

"Go get yourself some wine honey". He knows what will happen. Perhaps he even slips her some extra meds.

I would LOVE at this point to be able to talk to JI's ex-wife.

**********

All speculation of course.

Please note, I see no "grey" in this case. No "mom drinks too much wine and accidentally kills her kid and hides it and dad is clueless". Sorry no.

It's either an abduction, or a deliberate act.

Either no parent is involved, or they both are.

If JI killed Lisa DB is "helping" him by hiding that fact. Or, perhaps the masses are right and it's the other way around.

IMHO
 
not really a theory just an observation.


It's possible DB left the lights on herself (being drunk). That would explain away the oddity of an intruder turning on the lights while entering.

It could also draw attention to the home as well.
 
Maybe...there was no man holding a real child, but a man holding a doll, to throw LE off track -- man seen emerging from woods holding baby theory vs. there was no man, holding a baby.

This whole, "let's throw them off track" theory, of course, would be all part of the master plan, to cover up what really happened at home, and Mom found someone willing to play the part of "man with baby."

JMO
 
Strategies to find Lisa and obtain justice for her

With the news that no searches have been done the last couple of days I felt inclined to post about a strategy I am thinking about.

This post is to discuss the case from a LE perspective, of how to get a conviction.

To get a conviction, a body is vital IMO to achieve this.

It is apparent that possibly a new lead is needed to know where to search next.

IMO, a confession is the best scenario, and so wanted to speculate about that and get input from other posters, including other thoughts on strategies.

I feel that it is quite possible that LE has quite a bit more evidence than we know about, including who may have been walking down the street at midnight. There have been no sketches, descriptions, or anything of that nature released. The Amber Alert was cancelled after ten hours. Clues like that tell me that it is possible they know more than we do.

I feel that some kind of application of Nash Equilibrium may be helpful to this situation. This is in reference to who committed the crime and any accomplice.

In my theory, Debbie is responsible for Lisa's death and had an accomplice in staging this kidnapping. This is only opinion.

Therefore, in application of the Nash Equilibrium to that theory, we have the law stated as follows:

A Nash equilibrium, named after John Nash, is a set of strategies, one for each player, such that no player has incentive to unilaterally change her action. Players are in equilibrium if a change in strategies by any one of them would lead that player to earn less than if she remained with her current strategy. For games in which players randomize (mixed strategies), the expected or average payoff must be at least as large as that obtainable by any other strategy.

http://www.gametheory.net/dictionary/NashEquilibrium.html

Stated simply, Amy and Phil are in Nash equilibrium if Amy is making the best decision she can, taking into account Phil's decision, and Phil is making the best decision he can, taking into account Amy's decision.

The Prisoner's Dilemma has the same payoff matrix as depicted for the Coordination Game, but now C > A > D > B. Because C > A and D > B, each player improves his situation by switching from strategy #1 to strategy #2, no matter what the other player decides. The Prisoner's Dilemma thus has a single Nash Equilibrium: both players choosing strategy #2 ("defect"). What has long made this an interesting case to study is the fact that D < A (i.e., "both defect" is globally inferior to "both remain loyal"). The globally optimal strategy is unstable; it is not an equilibrium.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium"]Nash equilibrium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Prisoner's dilemma
The Prisoner’s Dilemma, is an aspect of game theory that shows why two individuals might not agree, even if it appears that it is best to do so. A classic example of the prisoner's dilemma (PD) is presented as follows: It was originally framed by Merrill Flood and Melvin Dresher working at RAND in 1950. Albert W. Tucker formalized the game with prison sentence payoffs and gave it the "prisoner's dilemma" name (Poundstone, 1992).
Two men are arrested, but the police do not possess enough information for a conviction. Following the separation of the two men, the police offer both a similar deal- if one testifies against his partner (defects / betrays), and the other remains silent (cooperates / assists), the betrayer goes free and the cooperator receives the full one-year sentence. If both remain silent, both are sentenced to only one month in jail for a minor charge. If each 'rats out' the other, each receives a three-month sentence. Each prisoner must choose to either betray or remain silent; the decision of each is kept quiet. What should they do?
If it is supposed here that each player is only concerned with lessening his time in jail, the game becomes a non-zero sum game where the two players may either assist or betray the other. In the game, the sole worry of the prisoners seems to be increasing his own reward. The interesting symmetry of this problem is that the logical decision leads both to betray the other, even though their individual ‘prize’ would be greater if they cooperated.
In the regular version of this game, collaboration is dominated by betraying, and as a result, the only possible medium in the game is for both prisoners to betray the other. Regardless of what the other prisoner chooses, one will always gain a greater payoff by betraying the other. Because in almost all solutions, betraying is more beneficial than cooperating, all objective prisoners would seemingly betray the other.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma"]Prisoner's dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

It seems to me that the GJ could be used to establish that there is enough evidence to make the two arrests. Once that has been approved, arresting both and then applying this principle of Nash Equilibrium could result in the two betraying each other. I am certain that Debbie will claim complete innocence, and the curtains will come down by the accomplice as to the real story. He will betray her as well, in other words. There is no equilibrium for loyalty to be maintained.

This then could allow for Lisa to be located, and more evidence for trial.

Hope this made sense.

MOO. :seeya:
 
Working theory-I am wondering about the height of the bunk beds.
Since I have nothing said from the parents that I can hang my hat on, I started wondering about them constantly mentioning the boys. I wonder if they brought Lisa into the room with them to watch the "fairy tale" movie, or if DB put her in the boys' room so they could babysit during adult time. Bunk beds to a child are like a castle, fortress and all kids, well most want to be on the top bunk. What if the baby tumbled off the top bunk?
This might explain the Cars comforter being taken...still mulling this over.
 
I'm wondering if this is a copycat crime.

(Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the similarities are striking.)

Baby Lisa Case Reminds Huntsville Family of Their Tragedy

http://www.waaytv.com/news/local/st...e-Family-of-Their/pD0sRNx660ayHZZ0idJiCg.cspx

edit: Okay, I just looked and there is a thread on this already. Sorry...

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152170"]Pat Brown compares Lisa case to other cases. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
Just a thought - if DB left all lights on an intruder would be taking one big risk to enter the house in the chance that someone was still up. It doesnt make sense that an intruder would turn all the lamps/lights on either. JMO
 
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