Premeditated Theory

[Lulu14]

I do not think it was premeditated. I have been in a situation similar to his (no child involved, just an important phone call), and I completely forgot about it a minute later. I think it can happen because it has happened to me.

 

[chlban]

I don't think he needs to fit into a particular diagnosis in order to have premeditated a murder. A lot of professionals think it's more useful to talk about personality traits than labels anyway. But to paraphrase the prosecutor in the Jeffrey MacDonald case...they don't have to prove that he was the "type of person" to do this...they just have to prove that he did do it.

Good point. Of course Jeffie just happens to fit almost all symptoms of a Psychopath, but I digress.

 

[chlban]

I can believe that someone might want to kill their child - certainly there seem to be plenty of cases of people doing that (I am looking at you, Casey Anthony, among others). But it is hard for me to believe that someone would plan to do it in such a horrible way. You'd have to be really incredibly evil to not only plan to murder your child but to deliberately cause him such terrible suffering (and to be sexting while it is happening).

You want him to die? Drown him in the bathtub and claim you just left the bathroom for a minute and he must have slipped under the water. Give him an overdose of medication and claim that he must have opened the pill bottle himself and eaten them. Quick and so much less terrible for the child. I just can't get my head around anyone making a careful plan for a child to suffer the way Cooper did.

Tink

Strangely the sexting is the one thing that makes me lean toward this not being premeditated. It seems to me you would be especially careful the day you plan on killing your child. Wouldn't he know there was, at the very least, a better than average chance that the police would be looking at his phone for that particular day?

To me the sexting confirms he's a creep and sleaze, but does it prove he premeditated his childs death? As I said, it's the one thing that makes me lean toward the possibility that it was accidental.

Of course there are many more things that make me think it was deliberate. But that pesky
reasonable doubt....

 

[chlban]

Yes, I totally believe this was premeditated.
Too much points to it being that way.

1) the Internet searches about hot car deaths.
2) the fact that JRH "forgot" Cooper was in the car after he was JUST buckled into his seat after breakfast at CFA. And IIRC, the drive from there to the daycare was under a minute...no way JRH forgot his child in that short of time.
3) JRH watched a video on the effects of being locked in a hot car. Not just once, but TWICE!
4) his discussions on Reddit about wanting to live child free.

Yep. Definitely premeditated!

Yes, excellent points. The strongest, for me, are the internet searches, and watching the video, That makes no sense to me. You know that leaving a child in a hot car kills. What difference does it make how long it takes? So if "google" says it takes an hour, you are going to then leave the child there for only 45 minutes? It just makes no sense.

We are in the midst of a heat wave here in So. CA. Saturday I left for the dog park with all 3 dogs but I needed to pick up medication for one of them from the vet. It was 9:00 A.M., so we were only in the high 70's at that point, The medicine was ready, it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to pick up and I did consider just rolling the windows down most of the way and leaving the dogs to run inside. Of course I knew it wouldn't kill them, but I still couldn't do it. The thought that they would be too uncomfortable drove me to schlep all three into the vets office to pick up and pay for a pre-filled prescription and then schlep back to the car.

So, my point is, what parent is going to decide to leave their kid in a hot car regardless of whether it is fatal. You still wouldn't do it, so there is absolutely no logical reason to worry about "how long it takes to kill".

Unless, of course, you are planning to kill.

 

[Mystymiss]

I do not think it was premeditated. I have been in a situation similar to his (no child involved, just an important phone call), and I completely forgot about it a minute later. I think it can happen because it has happened to me.

An important phone call is way different then a live baby! Was the phone call connected while you were driving? Well this 2yr old was in the car!! and alive! No excuses please..

 

[blefuscu]

Strangely the sexting is the one thing that makes me lean toward this not being premeditated. It seems to me you would be especially careful the day you plan on killing your child. Wouldn't he know there was, at the very least, a better than average chance that the police would be looking at his phone for that particular day?

To me the sexting confirms he's a creep and sleaze, but does it prove he premeditated his childs death? As I said, it's the one thing that makes me lean toward the possibility that it was accidental.

Of course there are many more things that make me think it was deliberate. But that pesky
reasonable doubt....

I think that RH is that arrogant and stupid and narcissistic that he probably thought that this would never get this far and that the authorities would believe that he accidentally forgot Cooper in the car. I bet he never gave a thought to the LE checking his phone activities etc, because he's supposed to be the victim here, the doting daddy seen at Chick-Fil-A who loves his son and would never harm him. I bet it came as a real shock when the handcuffs were slapped on him.

 

[lndigo]

bbm That has bothered me some, that Copper could not open his belt. I have wondered if it was tampered with that he couldn't open it. idk jmo

Children Cooper's age lack the strength and dexterity to open a car seat buckle. It's that way by design. Can you imagine if toddlers could all open their car seats? They would be climbing into the front seat within 5 minutes of every ride. My almost 5 year old still can't unbuckle her car seat, although she can undo the chest clip.

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Children Cooper's age lack the strength and dexterity to open a car seat buckle. It's that way by design. Can you imagine if toddlers could all open their car seats? They would be climbing into the front seat within 5 minutes of every ride. My almost 5 year old still can't unbuckle her car seat, although she can undo the chest clip.

Yes this has been discussed in the car seat thread. My four year old can undo the chest clip but not the bottom buckle either. I am sure there are some kids who can or seats that are easier but in general, they are made so toddlers can NOT unbuckle while you're driving down the freeway.

 

[Elley Mae]

Indigo & Hippiemomof5 Thanks I am a parent of a 29 yr old, it's been a while but thanks for clearing that up for me. Makes perfect sense, now. brain fart here.

 

[Lulu14]

An important phone call is way different then a live baby! Was the phone call connected while you were driving? Well this 2yr old was in the car!! and alive! No excuses please..

I did not say it was excusable, that phone call cost me my best friend. I just said I can see how it can happen. I would most likely kill myself if it happened to me, though.

 

[LisaB]

Sociopath - must exhibit more than one or two of these symptoms:

1. The Ability to Manipulate [ability to charm others]
2. Failure of Conformity to Social Norms [tweak and twist the rules of society]
3. Impulsiveness [difficult to resist temptation; do not care about consequences of their actions]
4. Ego-Centric Behavior [completely self-centered]
5. Lack of Emotions [lack emotions of love and attachment]
6. Lack of Responsibility [blame others; do not accept responsibility for their actions]
7. Absence of Personal Goals [tend to live a parasitic life]
8. Pathological Lying [constantly lies to cover up behavior]
9. Infidelity [attempt to maintain several relationships at one time without commitment]

Behavior differences in sociopaths and psychopaths:

* Sociopaths are very disorganized people. Psychopaths are obsessively organized people.

* Sociopaths cannot maintain normal relationships with their family, friends and co-workers. Psychopaths tend to have normal relationships with the people around them and are even able to take care of old parents and get married.

* Sociopaths are not able to maintain a steady employment or house. Psychopaths are very successful career-wise. Their ability to organize makes them very likable and trustworthy among people. Psychopaths tend to understand the emotions of others, but they do not feel any emotions or are basically shallow. Thus, it is very easy for them to manipulate people with emotional games.

* Sociopaths are found living at the periphery of the society. A study carried out with the homeless people of New York as subjects, showed that most of them were sociopaths. Psychopaths are found living in large apartments and houses and cannot be distinguished from normal people.

* Sociopaths are very erratic and unplanned with their acts of extreme violence. Their inability to plan and be organized, makes them leave trails of clues. This makes it very easy to identify and zero-in on them. Psychopaths tend to plan for years before they carry out their act of violence. They plan every single detail of their crime and make sure that they remain undetected. This organized and detailed planning makes it very difficult to catch them.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sociopath-vs-psychopath.html

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/sociopath-symptoms-of-a-sociopath.html

DeDee.... THANK YOU for this. I have things going on in my own life that this helps clarify. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it and doubt you will even see this post.

 

[LisaB]

???


BBM: I didn't say that.

:waitasec:

Actually, I think you did, in a post on 09-12-2014, at 01:42 PM but the quote you replied to did not include the embedded quote that said "Cases like this are usually similar in that the parent never drove the child to daycare but through some unexpected circumstance found them having to that morning. Somewhere along the way they forget and slip back I to their normal routine and continue on to work." which was referenced immediately before "So, if a parent has a change in their usual routine..."

 

[blue22]

bbm That has bothered me some, that Copper could not open his belt. I have wondered if it was tampered with that he couldn't open it. idk jmo

Depending on the car seat, they can be very difficult to unbuckle. I have a five year old (who happens to be really athletic and strong) who was never able to unbuckle his seats. Heck, I have struggled to!

I also think it's hard to do anything when you panic. Have you ever been in a huge hurry and try to do everything quickly, and end up not being able to do anything efficiently? I think the same applies to panic. Many people are not able to do things and functionally when they are panicked and scared. This is a toddler and it would be even more so . I can imagine he sat there for a good while, just waiting for daddy to get back. He knew he was coming back. Then, he got scared and I think it's very difficult for a tiny child to accomplish anything when hey are scared. I'm sure the state of the car seat showed that he tried. Now, if there is evidence to show that RH altered it and made it impossible to open...well that would be very good (and horrifically sad) evidence of premeditation.

So, so sad.

 

[rob]

On May 8th, in Hartsville SC, a father left his 13 mth old daughter in the car, remembered her during the day, but too late, she had already died. He rushed screaming to the car, tried to do CPR on her, and cried to God 'let her live, take me'
He was arrested on the 9th, released on $10,000 bond on the 11th. The cornorer ruled the death accidental. It was widely covered on the news and online.
I'm guessing computer boy read all that, and decided what a easy to make it happen, and maybe spend a day or 2 in jail for his trouble.
All JMO, of course.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

On May 8th, in Hartsville SC, a father left his 13 mth old daughter in the car, remembered her during the day, but too late, she had already died. He rushed screaming to the car, tried to do CPR on her, and cried to God 'let her live, take me'
He was arrested on the 9th, released on $10,000 bond on the 11th. The cornorer ruled the death accidental. It was widely covered on the news and online.
I'm guessing computer boy read all that, and decided what a easy to make it happen, and maybe spend a day or 2 in jail for his trouble.
All JMO, of course.

The geographic proximity increases the likelihood of JRH having seen coverage...definitely a good possibility that your theory is correct. I wonder if any online history of his reveals he read anything about it.

 

[Laughing]

Re: the buckle. A car seat model was recalled recently because the buckle was found to be too difficult to open & therefor a danger to the child after an accident. Registered owners received a notice in the mail & those that responded were mailed a new lower strap with buckle & instructions for replacement.

This was a rear-facing seat.

Wonder if Cooper's seat was registered, and/or included in the recall?

If registered & recalled, did both parents see the recall notice, or perhaps only 1?

 

[lndigo]

The recall was for Graco seats. I have 2 of the new buckles. Cooper was in a Chicco KeyFit 30.

 

[BirdycatNY]

Strangely the sexting is the one thing that makes me lean toward this not being premeditated. It seems to me you would be especially careful the day you plan on killing your child. Wouldn't he know there was, at the very least, a better than average chance that the police would be looking at his phone for that particular day?

To me the sexting confirms he's a creep and sleaze, but does it prove he premeditated his childs death? As I said, it's the one thing that makes me lean toward the possibility that it was accidental.

Of course there are many more things that make me think it was deliberate. But that pesky
reasonable doubt....

It also could provide an alibi of some sorts no? Like JRH was so distracted with all these internet relations that JRH forgot Cooper or he never thought LE would look into his computer history too much...just imo and speculation

 

[ilovepierre]

Yes, excellent points. The strongest, for me, are the internet searches, and watching the video, That makes no sense to me. You know that leaving a child in a hot car kills. What difference does it make how long it takes? So if "google" says it takes an hour, you are going to then leave the child there for only 45 minutes? It just makes no sense.

We are in the midst of a heat wave here in So. CA. Saturday I left for the dog park with all 3 dogs but I needed to pick up medication for one of them from the vet. It was 9:00 A.M., so we were only in the high 70's at that point, The medicine was ready, it wouldn't take more than 5 minutes to pick up and I did consider just rolling the windows down most of the way and leaving the dogs to run inside. Of course I knew it wouldn't kill them, but I still couldn't do it. The thought that they would be too uncomfortable drove me to schlep all three into the vets office to pick up and pay for a pre-filled prescription and then schlep back to the car.

So, my point is, what parent is going to decide to leave their kid in a hot car regardless of whether it is fatal. You still wouldn't do it, so there is absolutely no logical reason to worry about "how long it takes to kill".

Unless, of course, you are planning to kill.

BBM.
Exactly! And if JH was so concerned about leaving Cooper in a vehicle on a hot day, you'd think there would be searches on how to PREVENT it from happening. But there were no such searches. Just searches on how long it takes for a child/pet to die in a hot car and what temps the car has to be.
Very suspicious, IMO.

 

[katiewonders]

I wanted to reply to tell you that everything you've written applied -- in my opinion -- to Scott Peterson: never thought his almost full-term pregnant wife going missing on Christmas eve would be more than a blip. He thought he was the victim, had no idea the attention the case would garner from the public and the detail to which LE would investigate.

Just sickening. All MOO

I think that RH is that arrogant and stupid and narcissistic that he probably thought that this would never get this far and that the authorities would believe that he accidentally forgot Cooper in the car. I bet he never gave a thought to the LE checking his phone activities etc, because he's supposed to be the victim here, the doting daddy seen at Chick-Fil-A who loves his son and would never harm him. I bet it came as a real shock when the handcuffs were slapped on him.