Premeditated?

[otg]

Thank you, otg. Is it okay if I post a large photo of the knot on the handle? I don't want to upset anyone. The victim is not shown. So, do you think it would it be okay? ...just want to follow the norms & TOS.

Hi, Mama. I don't see why knot giggle. There have been many photos posted showing some pretty gruesome things (by me as well). But I think it would be polite (which I try to be) to give a forewarning at the top of your post in red and bold that it contains graphic images. (BTW, that's one reason I've started posting some images as an attachment rather than posting the picture itself. That way, the reader has a choice if they want to open it or not.)

 

[Mama2JML]

Hi, Mama. I don't see why knot giggle.

Ha! :drumroll:

 

[Mama2JML]

Warning: Photo of "Garrote" Below

The image below depicts hair that appears (IMO) to be twisted around the outside of the cord wrapping and the paintbrush, but I do not see the knot incorporating any hair within.

The Garrote Handle:

IMHO, the addition of the handle, for staging purposes, would have been unnecessary. As well, the handle isn't needed for "simple" ligature strangulation.

SOOO, I think the handle has significance with regard to the construction of the device, how it functioned, what it meant to the perp, or?... I don't know. I just think the handle was attached for some other purpose(s), than to enhance staging.

 

[UKGuy]

Warning: Photo of "Garrote" Below

The image below depicts hair that appears (IMO) to be twisted around the outside of the cord wrapping and the paintbrush, but I do not see the knot incorporating any hair within.

The Garrote Handle:

IMHO, the addition of the handle, for staging purposes, would have been unnecessary. As well, the handle isn't needed for "simple" ligature strangulation.

SOOO, I think the handle has significance with regard to the construction of the device, how it functioned, what it meant to the perp, or?... I don't know. I just think the handle was attached for some other purpose(s), than to enhance staging.

Mama2JML,
Well from memory Coroner Meyer had to cut JonBenet's hair, precisely because it was attached inside the knot?

SOOO, I think the handle has significance with regard to the construction of the device, how it functioned, what it meant to the perp, or?... I don't know. I just think the handle was attached for some other purpose(s), than to enhance staging.

Many have voiced this opinion, including those that considered the paintbrush handle/ligature to be a working Erotic Asphyxiation device?

It may have played some role in causing JonBenet to become unconcious, possibly JonBenet was to be staged hanging with the handle acting as an height attachment.

The blanket, size-12's, paintbrush handle, longjohns, etc all seem to be strange elements in what purports to be a staged crime-scene.

Unless you consider it the result of more than one staging reached by stepwise refinement?

.

 

[celticthyme]

I can see a kind of "premeditation" after JB began to fight the sexual abuse, and also threatened to "TELL." I am still not sure who did what to Jon Benet in this family. I can conceive of any one of them abusing her and causing her death.

 

[Anyhoo]

I can see a kind of "premeditation" after JB began to fight the sexual abuse, and also threatened to "TELL." I am still not sure who did what to Jon Benet in this family. I can conceive of any one of them abusing her and causing her death.

Well, I cannot see the parents killing JB because she threatened to tell about the sexual abuse. There are many ways of keeping her quiet but murdering her would be totally counterproductive. If the motive for the murder was to keep someone from being prosecuted for child sexual abuse, it would be completely illogical to kill her and in the process set yourself up for being prosecuted for first degree murder. So your reasoning does not follow. I am not saying I understand the reason for the murder, but whatever it was it is more complex that this, IMO.

 

[ShadyLady]

A few pics related to the discussion on the hair entanglement:

Just don't think a 9 year old did that.

I think abuse took place downstairs as Burke would have heard something. IMO.

I also consider Patsy's obsession with cleaning her daughter a form of sexual abuse, and I suspect John separately. Was Patsy's obsessions to clean her daughter because of John's actions? His actions afterward have always been suspect to me.

And the Marilyn Monroe posed photo....way out of bounds.

And photo of daughter by bathtub? And his volunteering?? Weird.

 

[Venom]

Well, I cannot see the parents killing JB because she threatened to tell about the sexual abuse. There are many ways of keeping her quiet but murdering her would be totally counterproductive. If the motive for the murder was to keep someone from being prosecuted for child sexual abuse, it would be completely illogical to kill her and in the process set yourself up for being prosecuted for first degree murder. So your reasoning does not follow. I am not saying I understand the reason for the murder, but whatever it was it is more complex that this, IMO.

I see your reasoning. But would a child think of it as a way to silence her from telling? Just speculating and moo.

 

[Anyhoo]

I see your reasoning. But would a child think of it as a way to silence her from telling? Just speculating and moo.

What I said concerned the way an adult would think, but if you applied that to a child (BR I assume), then it would not hold true.

 

[celticthyme]

I feel there had to be an "event' or series of events pushing JonBenet to
1) not want to participate in the abuse any more, ( was she a "willing" participant for a time??)
2) whatever was happening became more and more uncomfortable , fearful and/or painful for her
3) if, for whatever reason she threatened to tell someone, I can see that, especially if it were the parents, that would put them in a position to "put an end to it all" by setting up the phony kidnapping scenario they did.

It really depends on who , ie Burke, one of the parents, a bunch of their sicko pedo friends, was abusing her, how long it had been going on and how powerless she began to feel. We do not know.

 

[Anyhoo]

I feel there had to be an "event' or series of events pushing JonBenet to
1) not want to participate in the abuse any more, ( was she a "willing" participant for a time??)
2) whatever was happening became more and more uncomfortable , fearful and/or painful for her
3) if, for whatever reason she threatened to tell someone, I can see that, especially if it were the parents, that would put them in a position to "put an end to it all" by setting up the phony kidnapping scenario they did.

It really depends on who , ie Burke, one of the parents, a bunch of their sicko pedo friends, was abusing her, how long it had been going on and how powerless she began to feel. We do not know.

I tried to start a new thread about this that never got posted, so let me just ask it here. In my opinion after everything I have ever read about this case, what happened to JB could not have happened in a normal family. I realize the word "normal" is a subjective term, but we all have a general sense of what it means. Since the Ramsey's appeared to be a normal family from the outside, it is my opinion that this was a deception. Just as a person can live a double life, a family can also live a double life. On the outside they appear just like you would expect them to be, but privately, among the family members and also perhaps with very close friends, they are something else. I think the Ramsey family was like that, and one reason we have such difficulty solving the crime is because a lot of us believe the Ramsey lie of who they projected themselves to be. We have not been allowed to see the private Ramsey's. JB's murder concerns the private Ramsey family, the one we really don't know much about. The big question is: What secret(s) do you think the Ramsey's were keeping before the murder that led to the murder? Sexual abuse of JB is something we can all think of, but what else outside of sexual abuse? Feel free to think outside the box when you answer that question.

 

[Anti-K]

As I stated earlier (bbm):
I see no need to add anything to that. We've covered it, and I see no point in us each continuing to state our opinions.


So are we to use consensus to arrive at the truth? Why then such wide disagreement among the “experts” on the exact circumstances?


And these are all things that you feel are related to the furrow itself? Let’s take each of the things you list one at a time:

1. The petechiae are caused by rupture of the surface capillaries due to the increased pressure from the strangulation -- regardless of where the ligature was. There is also petechial hemorrhaging noted in the AR on her eyelids, her left cheek, her left shoulder, both her lungs, and her heart. Do you feel these are all related to the exact position of the ligature?
2. The triangular abrasion (IMO) is from the rupture of a larger blood vessel in her neck and the blood’s extravasation into surrounding tissue. The reason this pooled blood is triangularly shaped is due to its limitation within the musculature of what forms the carotid triangle. You can read more about this here. I should also point out that it is less likely that this would occur below the ligature -- like the petechial hemorrhaging in the area of the ligature, it is more likely above the ligature.
3. The tautness of the ligature (as I’ve already stated) has a different effect dependent on how long it is left in place.
4. Do you really think I need to account for “consensus of opinion”? What kind of scientific evidence is that?

We disagree.

I am going to abandon discussing this topic on this thread. However, I am going to be making further comments on “The ‘roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion’” thread.

Before a binding things completely I am going to respond to your list of items 1 – 4.

I will not be offended or bothered if you choose to ignore these comments (or anything else I write, where ever I write), but if you, or anyone, does wish to comment maybe they could make those on the “...abrasion” thread.
Thank you.

1. The petechiae are caused by rupture of the surface capillaries due to the increased pressure from the strangulation -- regardless of where the ligature was. There is also petechial hemorrhaging noted in the AR on her eyelids, her left cheek, her left shoulder, both her lungs, and her heart. Do you feel these are all related to the exact position of the ligature?

No, of course not. Nor did I make any such claim. I said that these along with the furrow’s depth were indicators of, quote: how tightly the ligature was pulled while she was being strangled.

2. The triangular abrasion (IMO) is from the rupture of a larger blood vessel in her neck and the blood’s extravasation into surrounding tissue. The reason this pooled blood is triangularly shaped is due to its limitation within the musculature of what forms the carotid triangle. You can read more about this here . I should also point out that it is less likely that this would occur below the ligature -- like the petechial hemorrhaging in the area of the ligature, it is more likely above the ligature.

My response is on the “..abrasion” thread.

3. The tautness of the ligature (as I’ve already stated) has a different effect dependent on how long it is left in place.

Your previous statement was factually incorrect, and not supported by your own sources.

4. Do you really think I need to account for “consensus of opinion”? What kind of scientific evidence is that?

Who said that “consensus of opinion” is scientific evidence? Consensus of opinion is merely that – all parties “in the know” are in agreement, and there are no dissenting opinions (a few forum posters notwithstanding). If expert testimony is relevant, than this consensus is relevant.

What I presented was a body of evidence. Strands in a rope if you like. Consensus of opinion (no dissenting voices) is just one of those strands.

It was asked: So are we to use consensus to arrive at the truth? Why then such wide disagreement among the “experts” on the exact circumstances?

We can use consensus as a guide, but of course there is always the question of relevancy and credibility. There may be some disagreement, (sometimes wide, sometimes not) as to the various specifics of certain aspects (most!?) of this crime, but I’m not aware of any disagreement by “experts” on the issue of the furrow being an indicator of how tight the ligature was pulled.
...

Once again, thank you for the time you invested in addressing my comments. I’m sure some of them must have seemed offensive to you. No worries if you choose to ignore me from here on.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Mama2JML,
Well from memory Coroner Meyer had to cut JonBenet's hair, precisely because it was attached inside the knot?


Many have voiced this opinion, including those that considered the paintbrush handle/ligature to be a working Erotic Asphyxiation device?

It may have played some role in causing JonBenet to become unconcious, possibly JonBenet was to be staged hanging with the handle acting as an height attachment.

The blanket, size-12's, paintbrush handle, longjohns, etc all seem to be strange elements in what purports to be a staged crime-scene.

Unless you consider it the result of more than one staging reached by stepwise refinement?

.

Thomas mentions (p. 41) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle.

Kolar also mentions (p. 55) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle.
...

AK

 

[DeDee]

Just don't think a 9 year old did that.

I think abuse took place downstairs as Burke would have heard something. IMO.

I also consider Patsy's obsession with cleaning her daughter a form of sexual abuse, and I suspect John separately. Was Patsy's obsessions to clean her daughter because of John's actions? His actions afterward have always been suspect to me.

And the Marilyn Monroe posed photo....way out of bounds.

And photo of daughter by bathtub? And his volunteering?? Weird.

JR discussed the hum of Burke's aquarium pump. Burke told the psychiatrist that he could hear the house creaking that night.

Maybe Burke did hear something and he stayed awake, under the covers, in his bed, listening as someone took her quietly to the basement.

This is his picture early on Christmas Day. He was a month shy of being 11yo. The Hi-Tech shoeprint in the wine cellar was a size 8 1/2. And at JonBenet's TOD, someone calculated BR would be appx 5' tall. He visited with a psychiatrist for two years following the death of his sister.

Many may hold the belief that JonBenet did not put up much of a fight or resistance as her life was being taken.

I believe she fought valiantly in only the way she could and in the short time she had to do it. JonBenet screamed. Her body was battered with contusions. A freaking garrote was tied into her bleached blond hair. She bled from being digitally penetrated. Maybe she released her bladder because she was frightened. Maybe she knew she was going to die. She had a deep furrow around her neck. She had a deadly skull fracture. It was a brutal killing.

Could it have taken as many as 4 to 5 minutes of pulling on the cord tied around her neck, maybe readjusting and pulling harder, for her death to occur?

I believe she was tricked, or duped, or near death going into that hellhole basement after stopping for a pineapple snack. JonBenet did not go willingly into that good night.


OMO

 

[Anyhoo]

I tried to start a new thread about this that never got posted, so let me just ask it here. In my opinion after everything I have ever read about this case, what happened to JB could not have happened in a normal family. I realize the word "normal" is a subjective term, but we all have a general sense of what it means. Since the Ramsey's appeared to be a normal family from the outside, it is my opinion that this was a deception. Just as a person can live a double life, a family can also live a double life. On the outside they appear just like you would expect them to be, but privately, among the family members and also perhaps with very close friends, they are something else. I think the Ramsey family was like that, and one reason we have such difficulty solving the crime is because a lot of us believe the Ramsey lie of who they projected themselves to be. We have not been allowed to see the private Ramsey's. JB's murder concerns the private Ramsey family, the one we really don't know much about. The big question is: What secret(s) do you think the Ramsey's were keeping before the murder that led to the murder? Sexual abuse of JB is something we can all think of, but what else outside of sexual abuse? Feel free to think outside the box when you answer that question.

Expanding upon what I said here, one would think that the secrets of the family's private life would not be able to be maintained under the scrutiny of an extensive LE investigation and that would normally be true, unless the family had help from outside the family to maintain those secrets. In this case, we have seen multiple examples where the efforts of LE to get access to information was hindered and obstructed. The Boulder DA's office did this repeatedly, among others. This suggests a conspiracy to keep certain activities hidden which involved not only the Ramsey family but also others in the community who would be exposed if the these secrets were revealed. JB's murder may have happened during a hidden activity that could not be publicly exposed, an activity that involved not only the Ramsey family but others. Some of those people who were called over early on the morning of 12-26 would be some to be looked at very closely, but not only them. The amount of obstruction seen in this case suggests a much larger cover up.

 

[Mama2JML]

JR discussed the hum of Burke's aquarium pump. Burke told the psychiatrist that he could hear the house creaking that night.

Maybe Burke did hear something and he stayed awake, under the covers, in his bed, listening as someone took her quietly to the basement.

This is his picture early on Christmas Day. He was a month shy of being 11yo. The Hi-Tech shoeprint in the wine cellar was a size 8 1/2. And at JonBenet's TOD, someone calculated BR would be appx 5' tall. He visited with a psychiatrist for two years following the death of his sister.

Many may hold the belief that JonBenet did not put up much of a fight or resistance as her life was being taken.

I believe she fought valiantly in only the way she could and in the short time she had to do it. JonBenet screamed. Her body was battered with contusions. A freaking garrote was tied into her bleached blond hair. She bled from being digitally penetrated. Maybe she released her bladder because she was frightened. Maybe she knew she was going to die. She had a deep furrow around her neck. She had a deadly skull fracture. It was a brutal killing.

Could it have taken as many as 4 to 5 minutes of pulling on the cord tied around her neck, maybe readjusting and pulling harder, for her death to occur?

I believe she was tricked, or duped, or near death going into that hellhole basement after stopping for a pineapple snack. JonBenet did not go willingly into that good night.


OMO

BBM :goodpost:

You've so eloquently expressed a sentiment shared by MANY, including me. :heartbeat:

*Burke was 9, nearly 10.

 

[UKGuy]

Thomas mentions (p. 41) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle.

Kolar also mentions (p. 55) that Meyer had to cut the hair entwined in the knot around the neck, but he does not mention the hair entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle.
...

AK

Anti-K,
All that matters is that JonBenet's hair is in the knot. This loosely demonstrates that the paintbrush handle was a last minute addition, i.e. ad-hoc, and that it was applied in-place!

Less conclusive but strong enough is that the hair in the knot would prevent the paintbrush/ligature being used either as an Erotic Asphyxiation device or an Asphyxiation Device, i.e. garrote!

Anyway my main point is that the paintbrush/ligature is pure staging intended to distract you from observing what may have caused JonBenet to initially become unconcious, and focus your attention on what killed her!

 

[UKGuy]

JR discussed the hum of Burke's aquarium pump. Burke told the psychiatrist that he could hear the house creaking that night.

Maybe Burke did hear something and he stayed awake, under the covers, in his bed, listening as someone took her quietly to the basement.

This is his picture early on Christmas Day. He was a month shy of being 11yo. The Hi-Tech shoeprint in the wine cellar was a size 8 1/2. And at JonBenet's TOD, someone calculated BR would be appx 5' tall. He visited with a psychiatrist for two years following the death of his sister.

Many may hold the belief that JonBenet did not put up much of a fight or resistance as her life was being taken.

I believe she fought valiantly in only the way she could and in the short time she had to do it. JonBenet screamed. Her body was battered with contusions. A freaking garrote was tied into her bleached blond hair. She bled from being digitally penetrated. Maybe she released her bladder because she was frightened. Maybe she knew she was going to die. She had a deep furrow around her neck. She had a deadly skull fracture. It was a brutal killing.

Could it have taken as many as 4 to 5 minutes of pulling on the cord tied around her neck, maybe readjusting and pulling harder, for her death to occur?

I believe she was tricked, or duped, or near death going into that hellhole basement after stopping for a pineapple snack. JonBenet did not go willingly into that good night.


OMO

DeDee,
JonBenet might never have set foot in the basement. She most likely left the pineapple snack for either another R's bedroom or her own? Why because she was wearing her hair tied up in assymetric ponytails. Someone did them for her, most likely PR.

JonBenet was left in the basement and upstairs was cleaned up so that everyone would think she was assaulted down in the basement.

She may have been ligature asphyxiated upstairs prior to being relocated to the wine-cellar.

We only have forensic evidence to demonstrate that the paintbrush was probably added on the basement floor!

.

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
All that matters is that JonBenet's hair is in the knot. This loosely demonstrates that the paintbrush handle was a last minute addition, i.e. ad-hoc, and that it was applied in-place!

Less conclusive but strong enough is that the hair in the knot would prevent the paintbrush/ligature being used either as an Erotic Asphyxiation device or an Asphyxiation Device, i.e. garrote!

Anyway my main point is that the paintbrush/ligature is pure staging intended to distract you from observing what may have caused JonBenet to initially become unconcious, and focus your attention on what killed her!

Yes, I agree that the hair is entwined in the cord wrapped around the handle; however I do not agree that this would have prevented the garrote from being used in any fashion. The victim’s hair would simply pull away from the victim’s head as the handle is gripped and pulled.
...

AK

 

[borndem]

JR discussed the hum of Burke's aquarium pump. Burke told the psychiatrist that he could hear the house creaking that night.

Maybe Burke did hear something and he stayed awake, under the covers, in his bed, listening as someone took her quietly to the basement.

This is his picture early on Christmas Day. He was a month shy of being 11yo. The Hi-Tech shoeprint in the wine cellar was a size 8 1/2. And at JonBenet's TOD, someone calculated BR would be appx 5' tall. He visited with a psychiatrist for two years following the death of his sister.

Many may hold the belief that JonBenet did not put up much of a fight or resistance as her life was being taken.

I believe she fought valiantly in only the way she could and in the short time she had to do it. JonBenet screamed. Her body was battered with contusions. A freaking garrote was tied into her bleached blond hair. She bled from being digitally penetrated. Maybe she released her bladder because she was frightened. Maybe she knew she was going to die. She had a deep furrow around her neck. She had a deadly skull fracture. It was a brutal killing.

Could it have taken as many as 4 to 5 minutes of pulling on the cord tied around her neck, maybe readjusting and pulling harder, for her death to occur?

I believe she was tricked, or duped, or near death going into that hellhole basement after stopping for a pineapple snack. JonBenet did not go willingly into that good night.


OMO

I don't think it would have taken that long, DeDee. Strangulation of an adult usually lasts about that long -- 5 minutes at the outside -- as long as steady and strong pressure are used.

JB was already debilitated as a result of the blunt force trauma of the head wound -- if it ocurred 1st, which I think it did. It's possible, however, that it could have lasted that long if the one doing the asphyxiation was weak or afraid or hesitant (and let's hope not for little JB's sake).

I also found a chart of shoe & clothing sizes for children -- it might help us narrow down BR's shoe size (prolly between size 3 and 5) and height (prolly not 5 feet tall yet).

see http://www.childrensalon.com/size-guide/

And if BR did hear something during the night, he may well have faked being asleep the next morning -- certainly if he heard her scream -- I certainly would have at that age. Plus since no one came to wake him up early to leave, that may have scared him even more. That is IF he had nothing to do with the goings-on the night before. (And I think he did, IMO).

And thanks for your post and for the picture, DeDee. He still looks a lot like a little boy, doesn't he? I didn't know -- or have forgotten (!) -- that he saw a psychiatrist for 2 years after the event. Hmmmm. That says lots, IMO.