Prior Vaginal Trauma

[BBB167893]

The Globe tabloid shows some doctor some photos they say are genuine, in an unsanctioned setting that is not part of the official investigation, and that doctor says oh there's old injuries superimposed on acute injuries from that night, and you wish to accept that as fact?

Speaking for myself, HOTYH, if it were ONLY as you depict, I would not blindly accept it. The problem--which you seem to be going out of your way to redirect from--is that it wasn't just one doctor involved with the GLOBE. It was quite a few doctors (and I'll be happy to name them for you) who were NOT involved with any tabloids, who were given authentic photos AND actual tissue slides IN a sanctioned setting, and they WERE part of the investigation.

Let's see you tackle that one.

Please let me know when BPD is trumpeting that JBR was sexually abused in events prior to and not related to the night she was murdered. Please let me know when the BPD has a concensus that JBR had a history of sexual abuse, and I'll join RDI right then, as I don't believe in coincidences.

I'll hold you to that. But I'm not holding my breath. Even if that does happen, I'm sure you'll just do what IDI always does: either accuse BPD of shopping experts until the found the ones who agreed with them, or accuse the experts of being hacks who see sexual abuse everywhere, or some other damn thing.

IDI certainly has no qualms about accusing BPD of bias or willful blindness when they reached consensus before. (Incidentally, you keep using that word. consensus. I don't think it means what you think it means.)

Of course, if the opportunity arises for you to prove me wrong about you, I'll welcome it.

In the meantime I suggest you ask yourself why BPD isn't on the prior abuse bandwagon even remotely like you are.

How do we know they're not?

 

[BBB167893]

Obviously your knowledge of criminal investigation and prosecution was learned at the Hunter-Lacy School of Legal Nonsense.

It's always the defense that is on TV, all over the airwaves, broadcasting whatever defense tactics they can mount with well paid shills working for them.

Prosecutors and police dept's. don't have that luxury. They have to keep their noses to the grindstone and wait for a jury to decide the case.

Except for Hunter-Lacy, of course, who were both working for the defense all along, it turns out. Since that's obviously how you think a DA's Office is normally run, I'll excuse your ignorance on that point.

I've often said that if the American legal system was run the way Hunter, Lacy and HOTYH want it, we'd have to scrap it entirely because no one would ever be arrested, much less convicted of anything.

The fact that you can't comprehend the autopsy report in medical terms simply also means you're arguing from a point of such ignorance, you couldn't possibly fathom the evidence of this case. Well, you can't help that either, poor thing.

But you're the one who is exploiting the pain and experiences of others who have spoken about child abuse. You do it to make a false point you know nothing about.

I suggest you do some research, go get some training at a sexual assault center, and then think about what you said to those survivors you've attacked here on behalf of the Ramseys.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[BBB167893]

Now imagine the wrath of Patsy Ramsey if her hip-swinging, Vegas showgirl-costumed, bleached blonde, flirtatious, "too friendly" little six year old presented this little secret to Miss Wannabe America Rich Christian Holier Than Thou And Flaunting It Saint Pats.

Ghastly as it is, some of us have imagined it. I happen to think that's what started the whole tragic affair.

I know for a fact Patsy didn't handle it well, because she denied it forever after even while someone sexually assaulted her baby and murdered her in their home. Patsy never once actively looked for someone within the inner circle who had access, did she? Nope. Immediately it was, Show me the evidence!

Ha. You showed US the evidence, Patsy.

Sadly, yes.

 

[BBB167893]

WOW!! Now imagine someone said this about you KK, after your daughter had been murdered? Not only that, they reckoned it was either you, your 9 year old son or your husband who killed her. And just add to that, they also said the reason for killing her was that one or all of you were sexually molesting her? "Patsy didn't handle it well" And just exactly how well would you handle it, when you heard all this?

I think you've misinterpreted KK's statement, MF. Either that, or it's another attempt at redirection. She's not talking about when the police told her her daughter had been molested. She's talking about if JB let the secret slip to PR.

 

[slug]

Untill the person responsible is identified there is no way to know if they comited any other ofences since JBR unless they are caught for them and then confess to everything they have ever done.
someone commited a sexual assault on her (whatever your belief on who did the murder) that night.
The problem with experts on the prior abuse is that there are several ways to inturpet medical jargan and there will always be experts who say oppossite to another expert because it can be dependant on the brief they are given when shown the infomation.

 

[BBB167893]

KK, I HATE to find myself in your crosshairs! And I agree with you: when someone insults the victims of child abuse, the gloves are off and it's down and very dirty.

Hopefully, HOTYH will be rejoining us soon. And even more hopefully, he will be a different man for his experience.

 

[KoldKase]

Untill the person responsible is identified there is no way to know if they comited any other ofences since JBR unless they are caught for them and then confess to everything they have ever done.
someone commited a sexual assault on her (whatever your belief on who did the murder) that night.
The problem with experts on the prior abuse is that there are several ways to inturpet medical jargan and there will always be experts who say oppossite to another expert because it can be dependant on the brief they are given when shown the infomation.

I have never seen any medical expert deny that JB had prior vaginal injuries. The language in the autopsy is clear and inarguable among professionals: the presence of white blood cells takes time for the body to distribute to an injury site. That's elementary biology.

The only disagreement I've ever seen an expert offer is HOW she got those prior vaginal injuries. I've seen Team Ramsey argue it was bubble bath, or self-inflicted, etc.

I just don't believe that it's common sense to disconnect the fact that she was bleeding vaginally the night she was murdered and the older vaginal injuries. What are the odds that some perv came in and sexually assaulted her and murdered her, and COINCIDENTALLY she had older vaginal injuries from something else entirely?

Keep in mind she was six years old. And her mother paraded her around in pageants in inappropriate costumes, makeup and hair, and complained to a family friend, Pam Archuleta, that JB was "flirting" and "too friendly" with people.

Sorry, I just can't chalk these obvious connections to coincidence. But that's just me, my opinion. People believe what they want.

 

[KoldKase]

KK, I HATE to find myself in your crosshairs! And I agree with you: when someone insults the victims of child abuse, the gloves are off and it's down and very dirty.

Hopefully, HOTYH will be rejoining us soon. And even more hopefully, he will be a different man for his experience.

Yeah, I can get bodacious when I'm fired up. I learned young to take the hits and take up for myself, even when I know I'm going to get my butt kicked. So there's that.

But when I see those who are more vulnerable for some reason being attacked or bullied, I go into overdrive. It's probably not a good thing, but it's me.

I guess this is why I can't let this case go. I watch those videos of JB dancing and laughing and I wonder what was happening to her when she wasn't on camera? What is she hiding, pushing from her mind? It just grips my heart to see her mother tussle her hair, knowing that this little body was going to be broken so soon, unprotected by that loving hand.

And yes, it morphs into the bigger issue of child abuse in this country today. I find it horrifying that child abusers get away with it so easily. Children are completely vulnerable.

So it's true that I project my intense feelings about child abusers onto the Ramseys, because someone in their inner circle was a child abuser, and somehow that ended in the abused child being murdered. Yet they protected that person, and still do, to this day.

You bet, that makes me angry. It encourages child abusers everywhere: they, too, can get away with it, and here's the Ramsey handbook on how to do it!

But ultimately, JonBenet was a little girl. She was privileged; ahead of her was a future full of unlimited dreams. Except that someone coveted her body and stole HER innocence. (That book title the Ramseys chose is all about THEM--but JonBenet is lucky to get a mention in it of how her innocence was robbed and her LIFE stolen.) She was used and abused, and she had NOBODY to protect her, and when she was murdered, she had NOBODY to speak for her, LEAST OF ALL HER FAMILY, who clearly were solely focused on their priority: obstructing the investigation.

How anyone can defend that, I have no idea.

But HOTYH, he is who he is. I expect nothing. Not my job.

 

[KoldKase]

heyya cynic.

Ya maan.
Thanks for that. You do present the dna info well,
and I have been able to discern ...

The mere existence of a DNA profile is not indicative of
innocence or guilt- C

.... that reality.

And cynic, that touch dna test, as its methodolgy was selected to examine only the two waistband areas, can not eliminate the possibility that the longjohns were previously worn by a male, or that a Ramsey did not handle those longjohns.

Don't want this to get lost in my diatribes.

Exactly on point: the Bode tech said she discarded some "DNA" in her testing for the "matching" DNA. That implies she had a goal, not a random testing for whatever results were found.

She never said whose DNA she discarded. I remember because I was watching her "run through/demo" of her "touch" testing methods with a reporter, where she was in her lab, she scraped a pair of jean shorts to demonstrate the technique, vaguely showed how she took the materials she'd scraped off and processed them, and stated she'd discarded other DNA. I jumped and said, "WHAT?! WHOSE DNA? WHY?" But she didn't hear me. The reporter didn't ask, either. Bummer.

This is the issue that weakens the DNA = intruder argument: when you're manipulating the evidence for a press conference, it's not lost on generally intelligent people that's what you're doing. If you have an outcome in mind before you start, that is the definition of biased results.

While I can understand if you can "match" the partial profile of DNA markers already developed, it's important, what I can't understand is why you ignore other DNA and call a press conference in an open murder investigation and declare you've found the intruder. That's not Bode's job, but that's what the company did. Since there is no way an investigative agency would use a lab that announced evidence results in a press conference willy nilly, it's a pretty safe bet that was Mary Lacy's agreement with Bode all along: find the result I want, and you can get advertising money can't buy. And they did--both.

So that brings up lots of issues, as well. Was this a legit test at all? Was it a set up? Where are the lab reports? Was the whole thing a manufactured result after all? Why discard some DNA, donor unspecified and not included in the announcements? Who's running this show and what the heck is going on? What happened to "No Comment" Lacy, who then turns it into an "Exhonerate the Ramseys" media circus, complete with media blitz, love letter to the Ramseys, and tears in Lacy's eyes.

Puhleeze. I've been watching this Team Ramsey circus for too many years not to identify another propaganda campaign. Lacy knew she was leaving office and she had one final goal in mind, having failed to manufacture an intruder in spite of the PERV Karr confession: exonerate the Ramseys. As if that were her job.

What Lacy didn't do was find the intruder. Team Ramsey still blames the BPD for no intruder, but Lou Smit, Ollie Gray, John Douglas--they all had their hands in Lacy's 6 years of looking for that intruder, among many other Team Ramsey shills. Where is Intruder? Are you closer to finding him? As Dr. Lee said, nothing new with the DNA. From 9 markers to 13--still no intruder.

Explain to me why Lacy wasn't testing the cord and releasing that info? Writing a subpoena for those Ramsey phone records at long last? Finding out what happened to that "lost cell phone"? Testing the "Bloomies" package the Ramseys finally turned over as (tainted) evidence five years after the murder? What were THOSE results? Hm? Where's the press conference there?

This is why all the evidence against the Ramseys can't be thrown out in favor of a few DNA markers allegedly recovered after 12 years by a lab with an obvious agenda. I wasn't born yesterday. I know a hard sell when I see one. I get that the outcome was not to find a killer, but to "exonerate" the Ramseys. That kind of unprofessional behavior by a DA who constructed the whole episode with the end result designed from the beginning loses any belief that she acted in good faith as an officer of the court.

I think she is as capable of twisting and manufacturing evidence as Lou Smit, who clearly got facts of evidence very wrong under oath. If that wasn't intentional, too bad, because it destroyed an honest civil action process. Smit had no regrets I ever saw when Team Ramsey smirked over the "dismissed" judgment by Judge Carnes, citing Smit's errors as evidence of an intruder.

Which "No comment" Lacy immediately called the media to endorse, as well. That's Lacy, who knew so little about the facts of evidence in this case, she arrested PERV Karr and flew him half way around the planet to parade as the "intruder." OOps. Most people who read the JB forums knew within minutes of learning Tracey spent four years prompting PERV Karr it was a set up that wasn't going to work, because we know the evidence, and clearly PERV Karr didn't. Fortunately, Tracey wasn't up on the facts vs Team Ramsey spin and disinformation, either, so his coaching of PERV Karr only resulted in PERV Karr getting some key details wrong. Lacy and her dream team, whom she called a press conference to slap on the back and praise--dummy--didn't know those simple case evidence facts, either, turned out.

Egg on Lacy's face--no problem! Time to find some more DNA and sell it!!

Sorry. I drove that old used car already, and it broke down the first time.

 

[DeeDee249]

I think you are confused here bec. The touch DNA was on the longjohns not the panties. The panties were not wrapped in the basement, but had been given to JBR to wear.

But we don't KNOW that for a fact. This is just Patsy's say-so. Her lie was exposed when the Rs turned over the remaining 6 pairs NEW in the package to LE years later. If she'd put them in the panty drawer they would have been found there. And the other 6 pairs wouldn't have been sent new in the package years later.

 

[DeeDee249]

And if they were right there in the wine cellar, opened with one pair of the seven taken out and put on JBR, why is that not part of the crime scene and in the picture of the blanket? Instead there is the corner of a parcel in the picture. Are you suggesting the Rs took out the panties and re-wrapped them? Why do you think that the cops didn't find the other six pairs if they were right there in the wine cellar in that parcel? Wouldn't they have noticed the parcel had been opened and investigated? Why do you think there is no mention of the large size of the panties she had on, if we are to believe RDI on this forum, they would have been hanging down to her knees? Don't you think the coroner would have remarked on that?

The police NOTED the "partially wrapped" parcels, but as far as I know, they did not take them into evidence nor did they look in them or read the tags. I'd have loved to know if one of the name tags (if they had them) said "Jenny". That, for me, would be a BIG push in the direction of knowing Patsy unwrapped Jenny's gifts to find the panties that she knew would be there. Police (in yet another appalling lapse, took Patsy at her word when she said she had been wrapping presents in there. (Have you really LOOKED at that room? Patsy, of all people, would never wrap gifts in a mouldy room with old pant cans and windows. Not in a house with that many other places.
Actually, LE DID speak to Patsy about the too-large panties. That's when Patsy told them they were bought for an older child, but she gave them to JB. Not true, obviously, because the OTHER 6 brand-new pairs, still in the package, were turned over to their attorney years later.
Doubtful the coroner would note in his report that the panties were too big. He'd do just what he did- note the fabric and print of panties, not how they fit. Remember that JB was also wearing tighter-fitting longjohns over them, ones that were her own size. Even standing up, the panties wouldn't hang down to her knees. They might be wrinkled and not smooth-fitting, but the longjohns would keep them in place.

 

[akashana]

my bold.

Thats what I've been trying to say for five years. You'd think the tabs would just love that.



I'm not confused, and there's nothing you'll say thats going to have an effect.

MY BOLD

Now that's a sure sign of a closed mind . . .

 

[akashana]

The Barbie nightie is there because of static cling not intentionally. The perp may have grabbed the doll or asked JBR which one to take when in her bedroom. She may have been sleeping with it so it was the one taken with her. PEDOPHILES use lures on their victims. That is why the Santa suit neighbor was suspected as well. What 6 yr old is not going to follow Santa and be quiet along the way. "come on honey we don't want to wake your family, take your dolly, blankie what ever you think you will need to go give presents with Santa." Oh santa I'm hungry I need a snack before we get in your sleigh". It wouldn't have to be Santa ( the neighbor, or any other Santa) but someone JBR would not fight going with.
The kidnapping may not have gone right and ended in murder. The kidnappers destination may have only been to the basement as murder was planned once she was lured down there. Only catching an IDI would get us closer to those answer. The posing is part of the perps reaction to the crime.
What their particular "needs" are in the crime. If he murdered her around 12 am he had all night to "play" with her. Even if the parents get up and can't find her he has time to escape as he is in a basement with lots of hiding spaces. He will hear the calls for her and know then he has to get out quick. He could have had his "fun" and been long gone before the parents even knew she was not in bed. Part of the crime is the posing. The wrapping shows he had time to think about it and tried to conceal her. Or the covering is a way to minimize the guilt of having to look at her. In outdoor situations far away from normal public viewing areas, the perp will cover with leaves or other materials, to hide the body from easy view and to minimize the last view THEY have of the crime scene. In these remote locations the concealing is more of an overkill and says more about the psychology of the perp than the need to hide the body. In a way it lessens their responsibility for what they just did. The perp may have counted on the ransom note as a way to prevent her body from being found for awhile. This is all supposing it is an IDI.

I can see very valid points in both camps but more the IDI is a simpler answer and therefore, IMO, a more likely answer. Akems Razor theory used here.The problem I see with the RDI is is depends on armchair psychology.
The Ramsey's did hire a lawyer. Everyone points to the fact that they believe the Ramsey's did not cooperate with police.
It is a crime to not cooperate and they were never charged with such a crime.
When they called police to their home they had to give statements of some kind. Police did not show up to a home where John and Patsy said our daughter is missing if you want to discuss the matter with us you will have to talk to our lawyer first.
After JBR was found they knew they would be investigated and they are not naive or at least John isn't. They got lawyers. I do not hold that against them as in fact if innocent it makes the police work HARDER it makes them dig for evidence.
Police can't call you in for questioning and go on a fishing expedition, grilling you over and over again on the same points. Hoping you will "change your story". With a lawyer present they ask the question your lawyer discusses it with you and you give an answer or your lawyer points out my client already answered your question at the scene and she/he stands by that answer. If true evidence you committed the crime is found you would be confronted with it and your lawyer would advise you to shut up as you are about to be arrested. None of this happened because no true evidence, not the circumstantial stuff discussed here, was ever turned up on any of the Ramsey's.
The lawyers did their job and the Ramsey's utilizing their constitutional rights is not to be held against them. Those rights are sacred and wouldn't exist if there was no need for innocent people to be protected from a legal system that is no way perfect.
Your right to discuss this case is just as sacred as the Ramsey's getting a lawyer is. Those who point to that as a proof should sacrifice their rights if they expect others to do the same.
So much of the RDI theories here are also dependant on the laymans interpretation of the autopsy reports, Chronic, acute,..... debates on what it means. Don't we have some real law enforcement people and possibly doctors who are members here. Shouldn't we be asking them what it means?
I hate to sumise anyone as a sex offender without proof. It is a horrible thing to say about someone. It reminds me of these cases of cyber bulling by teens. I want some good hard forensic evidence before I say for certain I think a family member is involved. If I am wrong, and a RDI, I haven't lost anything but some time. If I make accusations and theories about the family and they are innocent, a IDI turns out to be true, then I attacked a family who has already lost a family member and victimized them further. To me and my own sense of right and wrong --- that would be wrong.

MY BOLD

Actually, Occam's Razor is much more indicative of RDI. The Ramseys were undeniably present in the home and certainly had opportunity.

 

[akashana]

Zero corroborating evidence? I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this...

...but the touch-DNA on JBR's waistband is corroborated twice. Once on the opposite side of the longjohn waistband, and again matching genetic material mixed with JBR's blood on the inside crotch area of JBR's underwear.

Guess you didn't read this in the news? Because if you reread your post you glossed right over it for some reason. Oh, wait I know the reason: In order to gloss right over evidence of an intruder. Yeah thats it. No wonder you don't see evidence of an intruder, you're choosing not to look.

Leaving out most of the detail of the touch DNA, even referring to it as if it were a single instance of DNA, is flat wrong and misleading. Its a massive mischaracterization of the evidence.

Check out all the foreign evidence in this murder:

The handwriting.
The DNA in three places.
The cord.
The tape.
The motive.
The ability to threaten beheading on a small child.
Sexual assault on a small child.
The statement 'representing a foreign faction'.
The pineapple.
The brutal violence.
The blunt instrument.



You can't prove any of these things are not foreign to the house or the family. And its not like these things are trivial items either. In fact, this is the bulk of the items we discuss. The bulk of the evidence can't be factually traced to the house or its occupants!

MY BOLD

Just as you cannot prove they were not owned by the Ramseys. What is your proof, their denials? Please. The cord and the tape are common household items found in most homes across America. I would find it more unusual not to have such items on hand.

 

[CathyR]

I think the pineapple can be traced to the house as it an exact match down the the rine of what was found in the bowl. It really doesn't matter who gave it to her, Burke, Patsy, Intruder, she died within 2 hours and more likely within 30 minutes of ingesting it.

How do you trace brutal violence to a location?

I think it interesting that people don't consider the Ramsey kids might have done a very normal for their age thing. Sneak out of bed and go downstairs. That could explain why Burke says JBR walked up the stairs that night. He isn't going to admit at age 9 that he was "bad" and got up. He might in some way blame himself for what happened because he did something he shouldn't have - sneak out of bed. JBR could have made a second trip alone to get additional pineapple she knew it was on the table not in the fridge and she didn't need Burke to get it for her.
I find the new time line for digestion very very interesting.

No one has even posted a thought about an IDI being in the house hiding in the basement when the Ramsey's arrived home. This could explain how the IDI knew so much about them. Looking for cash and such in John's desk. Finding a paystub with his bonus amount on it. Not wanting to ransack the house as to cause immediate alarm when they got home. Could JBR have been pushed or pulled down the basement stairs and cracked her head there. If she made a second trip to get pineapple and heard something in the basement opened the door and there is your IDI who grabs her and flings her down those steps. The standard size of a stair and tread is close to the dimensions of her head wound. A baseball bat is too thick and would leave a curve the dimension of the width of the bat, so would a golf club. The size of the wound and the straight edges where the fracture occurred say something. the autopsy report doesn't describe any rounded edges to the head wound in fact the describe the edges as being linear.

 

[LinasK]

I think the pineapple can be traced to the house as it an exact match down the the rine of what was found in the bowl. It really doesn't matter who gave it to her, Burke, Patsy, Intruder, she died within 2 hours and more likely within 30 minutes of ingesting it.

How do you trace brutal violence to a location?

I think it interesting that people don't consider the Ramsey kids might have done a very normal for their age thing. Sneak out of bed and go downstairs. That could explain why Burke says JBR walked up the stairs that night. He isn't going to admit at age 9 that he was "bad" and got up. He might in some way blame himself for what happened because he did something he shouldn't have - sneak out of bed. JBR could have made a second trip alone to get additional pineapple she knew it was on the table not in the fridge and she didn't need Burke to get it for her.
I find the new time line for digestion very very interesting.

No one has even posted a thought about an IDI being in the house hiding in the basement when the Ramsey's arrived home. This could explain how the IDI knew so much about them. Looking for cash and such in John's desk. Finding a paystub with his bonus amount on it. Not wanting to ransack the house as to cause immediate alarm when they got home. Could JBR have been pushed or pulled down the basement stairs and cracked her head there. If she made a second trip to get pineapple and heard something in the basement opened the door and there is your IDI who grabs her and flings her down those steps. The standard size of a stair and tread is close to the dimensions of her head wound. A baseball bat is too thick and would leave a curve the dimension of the width of the bat, so would a golf club. The size of the wound and the straight edges where the fracture occurred say something. the autopsy report doesn't describe any rounded edges to the head wound in fact the describe the edges as being linear.

How did your mythical IDI get in? :waitasec:There were no footprints in the snow, and an unbroken spider web on the basement window casing...
And... if it were really an IDI, why weren't the Ramsey's more cooperative? Why fling yourselves all over JB's body, and wait 4 months for polygraph test that you shopped around for???

 

[DeeDee249]

I think the pineapple can be traced to the house as it an exact match down the the rine of what was found in the bowl. It really doesn't matter who gave it to her, Burke, Patsy, Intruder, she died within 2 hours and more likely within 30 minutes of ingesting it.

How do you trace brutal violence to a location?

I think it interesting that people don't consider the Ramsey kids might have done a very normal for their age thing. Sneak out of bed and go downstairs. That could explain why Burke says JBR walked up the stairs that night. He isn't going to admit at age 9 that he was "bad" and got up. He might in some way blame himself for what happened because he did something he shouldn't have - sneak out of bed. JBR could have made a second trip alone to get additional pineapple she knew it was on the table not in the fridge and she didn't need Burke to get it for her.
I find the new time line for digestion very very interesting.

No one has even posted a thought about an IDI being in the house hiding in the basement when the Ramsey's arrived home. This could explain how the IDI knew so much about them. Looking for cash and such in John's desk. Finding a paystub with his bonus amount on it. Not wanting to ransack the house as to cause immediate alarm when they got home. Could JBR have been pushed or pulled down the basement stairs and cracked her head there. If she made a second trip to get pineapple and heard something in the basement opened the door and there is your IDI who grabs her and flings her down those steps. The standard size of a stair and tread is close to the dimensions of her head wound. A baseball bat is too thick and would leave a curve the dimension of the width of the bat, so would a golf club. The size of the wound and the straight edges where the fracture occurred say something. the autopsy report doesn't describe any rounded edges to the head wound in fact the describe the edges as being linear.

If she had cracked her skull in a fall down the stairs, her body would have significant bruises and the coroner can tell when there has been that kind of fall. In this case he ruled blunt force trauma (a hit on the head with a bludgeon of some type). There was no dragging down the stairs.

 

[Tadpole12]

I think the pineapple can be traced to the house as it an exact match down the the rine of what was found in the bowl. It really doesn't matter who gave it to her, Burke, Patsy, Intruder, she died within 2 hours and more likely within 30 minutes of ingesting it.

How do you trace brutal violence to a location?

I think it interesting that people don't consider the Ramsey kids might have done a very normal for their age thing. Sneak out of bed and go downstairs. That could explain why Burke says JBR walked up the stairs that night. He isn't going to admit at age 9 that he was "bad" and got up. He might in some way blame himself for what happened because he did something he shouldn't have - sneak out of bed. JBR could have made a second trip alone to get additional pineapple she knew it was on the table not in the fridge and she didn't need Burke to get it for her.
I find the new time line for digestion very very interesting.

No one has even posted a thought about an IDI being in the house hiding in the basement when the Ramsey's arrived home. This could explain how the IDI knew so much about them. Looking for cash and such in John's desk. Finding a paystub with his bonus amount on it. Not wanting to ransack the house as to cause immediate alarm when they got home. Could JBR have been pushed or pulled down the basement stairs and cracked her head there. If she made a second trip to get pineapple and heard something in the basement opened the door and there is your IDI who grabs her and flings her down those steps. The standard size of a stair and tread is close to the dimensions of her head wound. A baseball bat is too thick and would leave a curve the dimension of the width of the bat, so would a golf club. The size of the wound and the straight edges where the fracture occurred say something. the autopsy report doesn't describe any rounded edges to the head wound in fact the describe the edges as being linear.

Hi CR,

We have touched on the IDI in the house before the Ramseys arrive home scenario, as that scenario is part of the early Ramsey defense scenarios, which discerns? allows that time in the house was required to construct the rn.
Also, touched on the known IDI and burglary interupted scenario.

For sure, it could have all started with an accident.

 

[Mendara]

MY BOLD

Actually, Occam's Razor is much more indicative of RDI. The Ramseys were undeniably present in the home and certainly had opportunity.

Agreed IDI is the most complicated answer. How did he get in? How did he get out? How did he get her to the basement? How did he know that room was there? Why did he change her clothes? Why did he risk writing a note? How did he manage to leave no prints, no sign of himself? How did he have so much information about the house and the family? Knowing the father's name, about his work etc? Where is the item that caused the blunt force trauma? Why did he use items in the house rather than bringing his own supplies?

The most simple answer is one of the parents did this and the rest was staged.

I have trouble fully accepting RDI - but that is because I am a parent and I just can't imagnie this. But if I accept an IDI then it means this person is evil to the core and dangerous and why hasn't he struck again? His ability to come into that house - get her out of her bed and complete all the steps that lead to her being in that basement and then leave never a trace left is just unbelievable. IDI is the most complicated theory.

 

[CathyR]

I'm looking at all angles and falling down stairs is not what I meant. I meant a force that flung her forcefully hitting her head on 1 step. I am assuming the bottom one as any other step would require her to complete her trip down the stairs by rolling. I am trying to locate an object that would have a straight edges like the edge of a stair.

Remember high school physics and mass vs velocity. Any object used to hit her with would have to be very heavy or secured to something to make it a "immovable object".
Kids bones are more rubbery than adults so the bones can continue to grow. In order to make a fracture the size she had would require a lot of force with either a very heavy straight edged object or an immovable one. Someone suggested a tub but most have rounded edges, her bed posts also rounded, only thing I can think of that would not leave evidence behind like an outside wall corner would ( sheet rock is soft) would be a stair.
I know others have suggested a golf club but it too has a round shaft.