Prior Vaginal Trauma

[joeskidbeck]

The ~ 8-inch-long skull fracture.

Dr. Wecht indicated minimal (assumed:internal) bleeding as related to that injury, which suggests it was inflicted post-mortem.

The injury offers no sense. JBR was not alive, why inflict such a blow?

Accident?

I do not expect the object to have been a golf club. The injury would have been more severe given the weight of a club head.

JR possibly might have dropped JBR as he was hurrying in transporting her out of the basement after he discovered her body in the WC.

The ME did not notice the fracture until after he began skin resection. This is why I think the minimal bleeding was internal.

The injury was not visually apparent. This suggests a direct with minimal to no lateral shift impact by a solid, possibly stationary object.

There also is a small section of skull at one end of the fracture that was forced inward from the blow, which suggests a protrusion along the object.

The fracture might have occurred upon impact with a wall, a step or a door. The protrusion could have been a spiggot, an object placed on a step or a door latch or strike plate.

Or there was no protrusion on the object .. perhaps a movement one way or another during impact was enough to cave that section of skull.

There was no external bleeding, hence minimal (hair, skin) or no evidence would appear on the solid / protrusion objects.

Perhaps a forcefully-opened WC door impacted JBR's head as she lie prone?

That suggests someone unfamiliar with the body placement opened the door .. or it was done purposefully by someone familiar with scene to cause death.

Surely, the strength of an adult is not required to swing a door quickly and forcefully enough to cause such an impact injury? (not likely, just making this point to be complete ... I do not believe the Rs would send BR to the neighbors if he was the perp / involved).

Why were JBR's hands tied 'above' her head, arms straightened?

What held them in that position?

Simply tying her wrists together above her head would not prevent her from moving her arms down unless they were tied to something heavy or stationary behind her head.

Was JR able to pick up JBR without detaching her from anything?

If so, who cut the ties, when and why?

Also, during the sexual abuse phase of the crime were JBR's pelvis and legs positioned flat on the ground or was she placed or propped in place that raised her vulva to a 'comfortably accessible' position?

The light purplish mark on her lower left labia majora was 1 inch long by 3/8 inch wide. Possibly the result of a pinch between the length of someones index and middle fingers, not the tips.

Were JBR's teeth brushed after she ate pineapple and before she was murdered?

Autopsy idicates JBR's anus was patent (open, unobstructed). Is that normal state, post-mortem?

Was there makeup on JBR's face? Lipstick?

What other evidence was found at the scene that has not yet been released to the public? Saliva? Vomit? Sweat stains?

Chuck, I just wanted to add one more small piece of evidence that, to me, is in direct regard to the head bash. Her hair had been fixed in two ponytails, one on top of her head and the other in the back. This has been discussed in the past but I cannot remember if anyone ever found proof that JB's hair was always fixed this way for bedtime or did she wear it this way to the White's that day? If she didn't wear that style that particular day and Patsy never mentions re-doing her hair when she got her ready for bed, then obviously someone arranged her hair to try and hide the head injury. Agree?

 

[MurriFlower]

This is an invalid argument even if true because fibers on a surface aren't DNA or fingerprints. They can only be 'consistent with' fibers from an item of clothing.

I rather doubt its true anyway because interrogators can and frequently do lie in order to elicit testimony.

I exect this was posted as the source for me thinking the black fibers were mentioned in the Autopsy report, but I will still try to find the one that mentions black fibers on her person.

 

[MurriFlower]

Heyya MF.

I've wondered about that as well, in trying to shuffle around what is or is not an untruth or tabloid myth or purposeful misdirection.

Where and at what point of time did the paint prush as assault weapon originate.
When did the cellulose as birefringent material become a definte.

I had been also thinking about perp profiles, if Ramseys typologies of the perp would still include an IDI within the inner circle, ie JR's inside job comment. PR's comments about not believing they could know anybody that evil.

At the time, without the touch dna, it was a known IDI type that could account for all the personal touches that the Ramseys would have needed to stage.

Yeah Tad, I think again we have been influenced to believe that there must have been someone familiar with the house in order for them to navigate their way around in the dark. We've assumed someone got in without breaking in, so they therefore must have had a key. Let's just say that looking at the house, the first floor open balcony with balcony rail and drain pipe would be the first place a housebreaker would try. People tend not to lock doors on these balconies, for reasons RDI's have stated on this forum, that they think it would be too hard for someone to climb up. Not so. So if we eliminate the necessity for a key, all we have is familiarity to indicate a known IDI. If they left for the Whites in the early evening, and I did ask this question and received no answer, when would it be dark in Boulder in winter -- 5pm, 5.30pm?? This gives them four hours of free time in the house. Would the Rs have left the lights on for their return? Probably, so the house lights would draw no comment from neighbours. Only the sunroom was unusually dark, perhaps because it provided a sillouette?

So, while I haven't completely dismissed someone familiar with the Rs being an accomplice, I can see that it is wrong to assume that it necessarily needed to have been an inside job.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Hi, jkb,

bbm

Chuck, I just wanted to add one more small piece of evidence that, to me, is in direct regard to the head bash. Her hair had been fixed in two ponytails, one on top of her head and the other in the back. This has been discussed in the past but I cannot remember if anyone ever found proof that JB's hair was always fixed this way for bedtime or did she wear it this way to the White's that day? If she didn't wear that style that particular day and Patsy never mentions re-doing her hair when she got her ready for bed, then obviously someone arranged her hair to try and hide the head injury. Agree?

It depends upon state of mind of the murderer, plus other considerations.

JR reports he found JBR wrapped in a white blanket in a fashion that suggests as if someone had "tuck[ed] her in". To assume further preening (fixing her hair, for instance) of JBR by the perp is a logical progression.

Given that context, I might agree but tightening hair against the head is not a best approach for concealment .. letting hair hang loosely provides better camouflage since the contour outline of the head becomes blurred. If the intent was to conceal, I would expect loose, hanging hair.

If JBR's hair was fashioned as such by the perp I expect it either was with an intent to provide 'handle(s)' of hair which the perp could use to manipulate JBR's head or it was to 'pretty her up' as an unusual and unique visual, to prepare her for their 'date' and for what was to come.

An odd psychology.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I exect this was posted as the source for me thinking the black fibers were mentioned in the Autopsy report, but I will still try to find the one that mentions black fibers on her person.

Crimelibrary and Lou Smit mention fibers from unknown source, possibly black, brown, or dark fibers.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQV06jBvozk&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBUdKnfBoI4&feature=related[/ame]

 

[ChuckMaureen]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otg_gaRDr0o&feature=related[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yzebufH_gs&feature=related[/ame]

 

[ChuckMaureen]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2h8iOtwig&feature=related[/ame]

Part 6 .. is missing.

 

[UKGuy]

Chuck, I just wanted to add one more small piece of evidence that, to me, is in direct regard to the head bash. Her hair had been fixed in two ponytails, one on top of her head and the other in the back. This has been discussed in the past but I cannot remember if anyone ever found proof that JB's hair was always fixed this way for bedtime or did she wear it this way to the White's that day? If she didn't wear that style that particular day and Patsy never mentions re-doing her hair when she got her ready for bed, then obviously someone arranged her hair to try and hide the head injury. Agree?

joeskidbeck,

JonBenet's hair was not set in ponytails for the White's party. Steve Thomas confirmed pictures taken by other guests showed this.

Some think it would be normal for JonBenet to have worn her hair as a ponytail in bed.

If she didn't wear that style that particular day and Patsy never mentions re-doing her hair when she got her ready for bed, then obviously someone arranged her hair to try and hide the head injury. Agree?

I agree with you. Looks like someone combed her hair either back into a ponytail style or from some other style. You might infer that someone had held JonBenet by the hair, so messing it up, whilst physically assaulting her, but prior to the head blow. Her head injury was not visible to the naked eye. So styling her hair is likely part of the staging?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Wecht is interviewed regarding the Ramsey case.




Children typically have a minimum of antibodies and resistance arsenal due to their not having yet been exposed to the multitude of bacteria and viruses that surround us.

Additionally, the "normal bacteria flora of humans" http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html represents a delicate balancing act of [potential] pathogens that when unchecked, wreak havoc upon the host.

Considering JBR was a pageant girl and most likely would regularly be adorned with makeup, removal solvents, perfume, creams and quite possibly other girls clothing it is possible JBR's immune system and particular areas of her anatomy were prone to bacterial proliferation and infection.




My understanding of that point is there was no evidence of a gradual accumulation of infiltrate, as would be expected with recurrent invasive or irritant abuse.

As long as there is an alternate, logical possibility that could explain JBR's recurrent medical issues I do not believe one could conclude on-going sexual abuse as a given.

ChuckMaureen,

As long as there is an alternate, logical possibility that could explain JBR's recurrent medical issues I do not believe one could conclude on-going sexual abuse as a given.

Do you apply the same reasoning to the touch-dna found on JonBenet's clothing, but nowhere else at the crime-scene?

 

[MurriFlower]

ChuckMaureen,

Do you apply the same reasoning to the touch-dna found on JonBenet's clothing, but nowhere else at the crime-scene?

UkGuy, do you understand that as far as we are aware, the longjohns were the only place that was tested for touch DNA?

 

[UKGuy]

UkGuy, do you understand that as far as we are aware, the longjohns were the only place that was tested for touch DNA?

MurriFlower,

Understand as in comprehend, or know ?


If you are correct presumably other tests may yield further touch-dna?


.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Hi, ukg,

ChuckMaureen,

Do you apply the same reasoning to the touch-dna found on JonBenet's clothing, but nowhere else at the crime-scene?

Loosely describing an evidence rule: if the jury doesn't see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or touch it ... it doesn't exist.

Loosely describing the real world: if something is never found that doesn't mean it never existed.

There is no chain of custody in evidence regarding whom might have handled the undergarmets, and when. When were the items manufactured, packaged, transported, ever washed, purchased?


As an aside ... is everyone aware of the following:

Many, many people had been inside the Ramsey house during the months previous to the murder ... the Rs hosted a tour of their home, supposedly 2,000 people had been through the house.

Days before the murder JBR had:

• Entertained at a local mall (exposure).
• Told a neighbor (Stine) that "Santa Clause" told her he would "make a secret visit with her after Christmas".

 

[UKGuy]

Hi, ukg,



Loosely describing an evidence rule: if the jury doesn't see it, hear it, smell it, taste it or touch it ... it doesn't exist.

Loosely describing the real world: if something is never found that doesn't mean it never existed.

There is no chain of custody in evidence regarding whom might have handled the undergarmets, and when. When were the items manufactured, packaged, transported, ever washed, purchased?


As an aside ... is everyone aware of the following:

Many, many people had been inside the Ramsey house during the months previous to the murder ... the Rs hosted a tour of their home, supposedly 2,000 people had been through the house.

Days before the murder JBR had:

• Entertained at a local mall (exposure).
• Told a neighbor (Stine) that "Santa Clause" told her he would "make a secret visit with her after Christmas".

ChuckMaureen,
Loosely following your rhetoric I'll take that as a negative.

Days before the murder JBR had:

• Entertained at a local mall (exposure).
• Told a neighbor (Stine) that "Santa Clause" told her he would "make a secret visit with her after Christmas".

Sure , we have been over all this stuff before. Did you check out who had assisted JonBenet at the colorado Christmas parade?


.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

Understand as in comprehend, or know ?


If you are correct presumably other tests may yield further touch-dna?

Do you know or comprehend that this is the only item that we are aware of that was tested for touch DNA?

 

[UKGuy]

Do you know or comprehend that this is the only item that we are aware of that was tested for touch DNA?

MurriFlower,

I thought they tested the size-12's too.

 

[DeeDee249]

I recall an interview with Patsy where she is asked about how JB wore her hair to bed, and she said that she often pulled her long hair back in a ponytail for sleeping. I know ST said she was not wearing the two ponytails to the White's. But I have seen a photo of JB from her parents' party on the 23rd and she has a ponytail topknot, with the rest of her long hair loose. That was a hairstyle I also have seen on one of her school photos (top ponytail, loose back). I can see her wearing her hair to the White's in a topknot ponytail, which was found with a red/black/white fabric hair tie (which would have matched JB's outfit that day) over a blue elastic around it. The bottom ponytail had only a blue elastic. When I made ponytails for my daughter, I always secured them with a coated elastic and then put a fabric scrunchi or hair tie over it. Seems like Patsy did the same thing. The fabric ties don't secure hair very well, especially fine hair like JB seemed to have. Then, when Patsy got JB ready for bed, she simply left the top ponytail in place (because it was late and she was tired) and pulled the rest of her long hair back into the usual ponytail for sleeping. I am someone who never really read that much into the asymmetrical ponytails. I don't think they were staging or had anything to do with the crime.
I can easily see a mother doing just that with a child's hair after getting home from a party late, I've done it myself. The last thing you do with a tired little girl is try to brush out her long hair before bed, especially when it is late and everyone has to be on a plane by 7 am the next morning.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

I thought they tested the size-12's too.

Ok, perhaps that was a 'royal we'.

Can someone else verify?

 

[Toltec]

What kind of intruder would feed JonBenet pineapple and then play with her hair style and change her panties???

No intruder would but a pageant mother would...got to look good in death as in life. It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Hi, toltec,

bbm

What kind of intruder would feed JonBenet pineapple and then play with her hair style and change her panties???

No intruder would but a pageant mother would...got to look good in death as in life. It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.

I believe that is too definitive a statement. It's unlikely an "intruder" would or could perform as such but JBR was exposed to so many R friends, many of whom she entertained and by who was applauded and complimented.

The secretly-visiting "Santa Clause" ...

Earlier that Christmas Day or a day earlier that Christmas week JBR told Mrs. Stine of a "Santa Clause" that said he would visit her [JBR] after Christmas, that it was to be a "secret visit".

I believe the secret Santa Clause's intent was to spirit JBR from the R house to his vehicle or to his own, close-by house and to have his way with her. I can not fully decide whether it also was with an intent to murder .. but I suspect it was given the risk he was willing to endure just to have her .. and he could not leave a witness.

The ransom note? Perhaps a procedural justification for his own psyche that he was "not" going to murder JBR, just have his way and let her go .. but his sexual compulsion was overwhelming in the long run. How could he collect a ransom and risk JBR recognizing him at a next party?

He entered the dwelling during when he knew the Rs were away and composed and placed the infamous RN, then hid.

Later that evening a neighbor reported hearing a shrill scream come from the direction of the R house. The neighbor thought it sounded like a young girl, like JBR. I am not sure if the neighbor reported it to 911 that evening ... I do not believe so.

Did the scream occur during when the secret Santa Clause was attempting to lead JBR away from the R house?

I do believe the occupants of the R house might not hear a scream coming from certain locations outside the house or even from certain locations within the house.

I base that assumption on my own experience. While in any of the back rooms in our house I can not hear the screaming playing children who are outside the front of the house. I also can not hear my wife calling me from the garage level, three floors down. Our house is not even the size of the R's 15-room house.

How did the Santa Clause squelch JBR's scream?

Hand over mouth? Choke hold? A blow to the head?

Could have been hand-over-mouth and soothing talk at this point .. because ..

There is evidence JBR was crying ... a 3x2(?) inch dark tan stain, concluded to be mucous from her nose / mouth (according to autopsy), was found on one of her sleeves.

At this point during the evening either JBR was alive and wiped her nose / mouth (hand-over-mouth/soothing) or JBR was unconscious or had passed (blow to the head/unconscious/passed) and the secret Santa Clause did so.

Perhaps JBR did not immediately die from the blow to the head but certainly she became limp, minimal movement, slowed heart rate and shallow breathing .. minimal bleeding within her skull?

The secret Santa Clause was so intent on having his way with JBR that he decided to risk the act within the R dwelling. A sick, sexual compulsion.

All speculation, of course.