Prior Vaginal Trauma

[ChuckMaureen]

If the ransom figure was supposed to be an insult then wouldn't it be less than $118,000, and why the extra 18,000?

$118,000 is a significant value, a "bonus" payout to an already-rich fat cat. The perp not only attempted to lessen the value of the R's prize child but he also attempted to lessen the value of the "bonus" given to a rich, fat cat.

Would JR trade that $118,000 for his "kidnapped" daughter? How greedy is JR? A taunt. "Hell. I really don't want your measley $118,000 JR, your daughter's already dead."

The more often I think about this crime and the RN, the further I develop on the image of the perp. I could be way off in the direction it leads me but at least I'm attempting to complete a profile and mindset. It's creeping me out a bit but it's helping me to attach the crime to a "virtual" perp.

For instance, note the garrote-style asphyxiation device. It appears to be designed for use on the self .. the noose would release when the user achieves the asphyxiation point of passing out during masturbation / orgasm: noose releases, user then able to breathe normally and regain consciousness. The perp wanted his victim to feel that "rush" .. a sexual empathy with the victim, perhaps?

The problem is, there is no (publicized) list of suspects to which to apply a profile.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

$118,000 is a significant value, a "bonus" payout to an already-rich "fat cat". The perp not only attempted to lessen the value of the R's prize child but he also attempted to lessen the value of the "bonus" given to a rich, fat cat.

Would JR trade that $118,000 for his "kidnpped" daughter? How greedy is JR? A taunt. "Hell. I really don't want your measley $118,000 JR, your daughter's already dead."

The more often I think about this crime and the RN, the further I develop on the image of the perp. I could be way off in the direction it leads me but at least I'm attempting to complete a profile and mindset. It's creeping me out a bit but it's helping me to attach the crime to a "virtual" perp.

For instance, note the garrote-style asphyxiation device. It appears to be designed for use on the self .. the noose would release when the user achieves the asphyxiation point of passing out during masturbation / orgasm: noose releases, user then able to breathe normally and regain consciousness. The perp wanted his victim to feel that "rush" .. a sexual empathy with the victim, perhaps?

The problem is, there is no (publicized) list of suspects to which to apply a profile.

I appreciate this and other posts of yours because of the clarity. While some points I might disagree with, because I dont thing we're really going to piece it together completely without some more breakthroughs. But who knows?

I see your point about getting the money and then finding out his daughter's already dead. This makes his 'fat cat' bonus moot. His wealth unable to return his daughter, the suitcase is there on the floor. Things may have turned out worse with regard to the ransom money vs. the discovery of JBR had it not been for Linda Arndt who astutely decided to search the house some more and deputized JR to do it.

Google search 'fat cat bonuses' and it returns much political angst. Truly a bone of contention for many people. Some high emotions on this subject.

Although I think you have to go out on a limb to find activists willing to make that big a deal out of CEO bonuses, when you consider just how many there are. Its a perk, a lure.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I appreciate this and other posts of yours because of the clarity. While some points I might disagree with, because I dont thing we're really going to piece it together completely without some more breakthroughs. But who knows?

I see your point about getting the money and then finding out his daughter's already dead. This makes his 'fat cat' bonus moot. His wealth unable to return his daughter, the suitcase is there on the floor. Things may have turned out worse with regard to the ransom money vs. the discovery of JBR had it not been for Linda Arndt who astutely decided to search the house some more and deputized JR to do it.

Google search 'fat cat bonuses' and it returns much political angst. Truly a bone of contention for many people. Some high emotions on this subject.

Although I think you have to go out on a limb to find activists willing to make that big a deal out of CEO bonuses, when you consider just how many there are. Its a perk, a lure.

Even perverted child murderers might hold political opinions .. and why not assume those two apsects of a perp's life could merge and act out in "complimentary angst"?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Even perverted child murderers might hold political opinions .. and why not assume those two apsects of a perp's life could merge and act out in "complimentary angst"?

I believed at one point that the primary motive had to be pedophilia. Why else would anyone want anything to do with a 6 year old's underwear? This is the most vile, base, and compulsive manifestation of the behaviors or attitudes that were present. Something to be concealed by the ulterior motives of money and politics? Something for JR to wrap his head around? Something to distract everyone from what really happened? Only JBR knows what happened and I'm sure it had nothing to do with politics.

Now I'm not so sure. JBR's sexual assault was atypical. I think maybe the idea for the entire crime was to get publicity for the ransom note which contained ideology. It got publicity, but not unlike Ted Kaczynski, nobody really listened.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I believed at one point that the primary motive had to be pedophilia. Why else would anyone want anything to do with a 6 year old's underwear? This is the most vile, base, and compulsive manifestation of the behaviors or attitudes that were present. Something to be concealed by the ulterior motives of money and politics? Something for JR to wrap his head around? Something to distract everyone from what really happened? Only JBR knows what happened and I'm sure it had nothing to do with politics.

Now I'm not so sure. JBR's sexual assault was atypical. I think maybe the idea for the entire crime was to get publicity for the ransom note which contained ideology. It got publicity, but not unlike Ted Kaczynski, nobody really listened.

Remember that you and I and other average humans think in terms of a broad scope of publicity being in the context of a huge world that collectively surrounds us.

Some perps simply live within their own protective, comfortable and / or tortured life-bubble and every so often they float that bubble in to the "real world" where innocents are converted in to victims and logic falls floppy dead.

 

[Peepers]

I think it goes without saying that someone who was in the house that night murdered her (unless you believe she was removed, murdered and then returned).

You are then left to ponder if her loving parents, brother or some other extended family member was responsible or if it was a yet to be determined person(s).

You believe exactly what you want to believe. An unknown person is just that -- unknown. You obviously prefer to believe a family member murdered her, for reasons of your own. So be it.

Now, let us get on with finding the real murderer!!

I hope we find out the truth some day, although its doubtful unless someone confesses. Im not sure the Ramseys did it, and Im not sure an intruder did it. Theres strong arguments on both sides IMO; but if I were to believe it was a sexually motivated crime,(and Im not sure I do) then I lean towards an intruder. I do not think John Ramsey sexually assaulted and killed Jonbonet. I could be convinced it was Burke, but not John. Its just my opinion from what Ive read. If people believe the Ramseys killed their daughter..it doesnt bother me..I dont feel the need to change anyone's mind. If people believe an intruder did it, It doesnt insult me personally. Its compelling on both sides. :truce:

 

[madeleine]

Maybe the cops made a mistake for not investigating a possible SFF.
But the R's didn't buy it either.I never heard a Ramsey investigator blaming it on a SFF or looking for a SFF.
If it was a SFF John Ramsey should have been the first one to help the cops and answer questions related to his business.Cause if it was a SFF it's damn obvious it had something to do with his business and what happened in that firm.
If it was a SFF their message didn't get across so why did they never insist?
Anyway,even if it was a SFF that did this,I am sure JR knows what it was about and he's not telling,and he was definitely not afraid that these guys will strike again,why?
Actually it makes sense that such type of criminals wouldn't use their personal stuff when comitting a crime,you don't wanna leave incriminating evidence behind(like cord and tape which can be traced back to the store).Maybe you don't care about the handwriting since no one can trace you down anyway,same re the DNA.
But why did the R's always say then that "this person","this monster"....a SFF (and the note) implies more than one person,that's for sure.They never investigated the possibility of more people being involved,a group of ex workers,a group of friends,etc.
I bet the one who wrote that note thought there will be headlines like "CEO daughter kidnapped and killed".Ironically that never happened.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Maybe the cops made a mistake for not investigating a possible SFF.
But the R's didn't buy it either.I never heard a Ramsey investigator blaming it on a SFF or looking for a SFF.
If it was a SFF John Ramsey should have been the first one to help the cops and answer questions related to his business.Cause if it was a SFF it's damn obvious it had something to do with his business and what happened in that firm.
If it was a SFF their message didn't get across so why did they never insist?
Anyway,even if it was a SFF that did this,I am sure JR knows what it was about and he's not telling,and he was definitely not afraid that these guys will strike again,why?
Actually it makes sense that such type of criminals wouldn't use their personal stuff when comitting a crime,you don't wanna leave incriminating evidence behind(like cord and tape which can be traced back to the store).Maybe you don't care about the handwriting since no one can trace you down anyway,same re the DNA.
But why did the R's always say then that "this person","this monster"....a SFF (and the note) implies more than one person,that's for sure.They never investigated the possibility of more people being involved,a group of ex workers,a group of friends,etc.
I bet the one who wrote that note thought there will be headlines like "CEO daughter kidnapped and killed".Ironically that never happened.

I suspect the perp was attempting to portray himself as a more powerful entity (i.e.: "small foreign faction") than is JR. This theory is consistent with the perp's devaluing of JR's child and of JR's bonus ($118,000), that he held power over JR and JR had no recourse but to accept that. "Take that, rich fat cat."

As I related in a previous post, the more I focus on piecing this together the easier it's become to build a profile of the perp. YMMV but to me the 'illogical' logic of the perp is beginning to reveal itself.

 

[UKGuy]

bubm



A perp certainly could wander through a house and even utilize its contents and not have a second thought.

I suspect if you've ever seen surveillance footage of home invaders roam a dwelling with carefree abandon, you'd realize that for some people there are no boundaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdGY8S8CvK8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ygZ58bPuw

There is no forensic evidence that has been matched to any intruder as of yet, but certainly there is evidence to suggest an intruder, such as the DNA found under JBR's fingernails and in the mix of fluids found in her crotch area and also DNA found on the metal baseball bat found on the property.

As for evidence linking both parents to the crime scene .. which evidence might that be and to which "scene"?

ChuckMaureen,
Wandering intruders there may be, but no intruder would know about the existence of the wine-cellar never mind how to open it.

As for evidence linking both parents to the crime scene .. which evidence might that be and to which "scene"?

None of the dna you cite has been matched, all occurrences may also simply be examples of environmental touch-dna transferred by either JonBenet herself or the person who redressed her, and this person may not be the same person who killed her.

This is why I queried your reasoning in a prior post since nothing mandates that the dna samples recovered from JonBenet originate from an intruder.

As you know there are numerous fiber samples from both parents distributed across the wine-cellar crime-scene. Patsy's should not be there, since she stated she never visited the wine-cellar that day or night. Also John's shirt fibers should really not be anywhere near JonBenet's genitals, particularly when its a sexually motivated homicide.


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[UKGuy]

I can't believe people still post about the unidentified pubic hair.

There was NO pubic hair, unidentified or not. This was determined to be a hair from the forearm of Patsy Ramsey.

Credibility is lost when false/incorrect information is posted again and again as fact.

DeeDee249,

Amazing how certain factoids take off and become facts for either IDI or RDI!


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[UKGuy]

UkGuy I think you mean that the body was found in the wc, but this does not indicate the actual 'crime scene' which I take to mean the location(s) where she was attacked/died. I thought we recently discussed that her being killed in the hallway outside the wc was only someone's 'opinion', without basis in fact.

The unidentified DNA found in scraping down the sides of the longjohns is evidence of an intruder, as is the absence of some evidence (cord, tape, end of the paintbrush) and indicator that they were brought in and taken away.

Now, lets just assume for a minute that she was killed elsewhere. What locations would be the most likely?

Obviously in her bed is no 1. What do we know of BPD's attempts to find evidence of an intruder here? There were fibers vaccumed from her bed from the bag in which the hemp rope was found. Bedclothing was removed from her bed. Footprints on the balcony were they identified? Was the door to the balcony locked? Was the exterior of the house closely scrutinised for a possible entry point on the balcony? Was her closet searched for foreign material?

MurriFlower,

UkGuy I think you mean that the body was found in the wc, but this does not indicate the actual 'crime scene' which I take to mean the location(s) where she was attacked/died.

The wc is the notional crime-scene since her body was discovered there. That you then decide she was relocated there is secondary.

I thought we recently discussed that her being killed in the hallway outside the wc was only someone's 'opinion', without basis in fact.

Yes, but since the brush used in manufacturing the garrote originated from the paint-tote and if JonBenet was asphyxiated, as per the autopsy report, by the garrote then its probable she was killed in the basement. Otherwise IDI has a lot of qualifications and proviso's to invent to explain away why an intruder needs to redress JonBenet and apply a fake garrote?

Obviously in her bed is no 1. What do we know of BPD's attempts to find evidence of an intruder here? There were fibers vaccumed from her bed from the bag in which the hemp rope was found. Bedclothing was removed from her bed. Footprints on the balcony were they identified? Was the door to the balcony locked? Was the exterior of the house closely scrutinised for a possible entry point on the balcony? Was her closet searched for foreign material?

Anywhere else in the house is likely , as you suggest her bedroom, or Burke's or John Ramsey's. Or another location in the basement where some deviant game was played out.

Despite the best efforts of Lou Smit, all the Ramsey Private Detectives, and the work of the BPD, and passage of many years, there is no forensic evidence to match with any intruder. There are numerous samples of unknown dna, hair follicles, fabric fibers, unclaimed artifacts, which until they are matched have no significance since they could not be produced in court e.g. they are inadmissable.

Google lou smit intruder and read up on his intruder theory since he believed that JonBenet's death represented a sexually motivated homicide.

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[ChuckMaureen]

ChuckMaureen,
Wandering intruders there may be, but no intruder would know about the existence of the wine-cellar never mind how to open it.


None of the dna you cite has been matched, all occurrences may also simply be examples of environmental touch-dna transferred by either JonBenet herself or the person who redressed her, and this person may not be the same person who killed her.

This is why I queried your reasoning in a prior post since nothing mandates that the dna samples recovered from JonBenet originate from an intruder.

As you know there are numerous fiber samples from both parents distributed across the wine-cellar crime-scene. Patsy's should not be there, since she stated she never visited the wine-cellar that day or night. Also John's shirt fibers should really not be anywhere near JonBenet's genitals, particularly when its a sexually motivated homicide.


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The Rs' were not the first family to live in that house. And the R's hosted a tour of their home in 1994, when hundreds of people were trekked through the dwelling. The WC room was no secret. As for opening the door, an above-eye-level latch is not difficult to detect and operate.

None of the DNA matches either parent, nor the brother. The FBI-verified samples are good enough to log and file, and does not match anyone living at the dwelling nor other family members and friends. That suggests an "intruder".

Fibers transfer quite easily and silently, especially between members of a family and friends when they are welcoming (hug, shake hands) and also via air transfer.

JR and PR hugged friends as they arrived to the house .. that action can loosen fibers from clothing, flick them in to the environment where the fibers can stick to other clothing, shoes, etc. The police might have received fiber transfer from the Rs and / or others.

There is no reason fibers from either parents clothing should not be on JBR. Both parents made physical contact with JBR's body. JR held JBR's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs and knelt down and placed it on the floor. PR knelt down and leaned against JBR's body.

Motivation for the crime has not been established. The sexual aspect could be incidental to the primary motivation.

 

[UKGuy]

I hope we find out the truth some day, although its doubtful unless someone confesses. Im not sure the Ramseys did it, and Im not sure an intruder did it. Theres strong arguments on both sides IMO; but if I were to believe it was a sexually motivated crime,(and Im not sure I do) then I lean towards an intruder. I do not think John Ramsey sexually assaulted and killed Jonbonet. I could be convinced it was Burke, but not John. Its just my opinion from what Ive read. If people believe the Ramseys killed their daughter..it doesnt bother me..I dont feel the need to change anyone's mind. If people believe an intruder did it, It doesnt insult me personally. Its compelling on both sides. :truce:

Peepers,

Google "Lou Smit intruder theory"read what he says then compare with the actual evidence, this mught help you decide whether its an IDI or RDI scenario.

The focus of Lou Smit's theory is that JonBenet's death is a sexually motivated homicide!


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[otg]

(edit by otg for brevity)
JR held JBR's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs and knelt down and placed it on the floor.

Just a correction on that, CM:
I think it is accepted that John didn't "hold JonBenet's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs" (which doesn't negate any of your other points). Of course "close" is a relative term, but I still think we should maintain that image of just exactly how he carried her.

From IRMI:
"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."
LINK


The only reason for pointing that out (and I know this has nothing to do with the topic of fiber evidence) is to show that he obviously already knew she was dead, but the first thing he asked Arndt was if she was dead.
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[Holdontoyourhat]

Just a correction on that, CM:
I think it is accepted that John didn't "hold JonBenet's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs" (which doesn't negate any of your other points). Of course "close" is a relative term, but I still think we should maintain that image of just exactly how he carried her.

From IRMI:
"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were raised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."
LINK


The only reason for pointing that out (and I know this has nothing to do with the topic of fiber evidence) is to show that he obviously already knew she was dead, but the first thing he asked Arndt was if she was dead.
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bbm

This is just your claim stated as if it were known fact.

I rather doubt he had accepted JBR as dead. Would you?

 

[otg]

bbm

This is just your claim stated as if it were known fact.

I rather doubt he had accepted JBR as dead. Would you?

No, not my claim. That is from the report of the only LE officer on the scene at the time.

Granted, any parent would not want to accept that their child was dead. But do you know what happens to a body after roughly twelve hours?

He carried her stiff body up from the basement, stinking from decay, the stench of death wafting through the air behind her into his face, her lips were blue, a cord wrapped around her neck in a deep furrow with a "garrote" dangling from it... and he asks Arndt if she is dead?

Come on, HOTYH. At least admit that he had to have known that she was already dead, even if he didn't want to believe it.
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[Holdontoyourhat]

No, not my claim. That is from the report of the only LE officer on the scene at the time.

Granted, any parent would not want to accept that their child was dead. But do you know what happens to a body after roughly twelve hours?

He carried her stiff body up from the basement, stinking from decay, the stench of death wafting through the air behind her into his face, her lips were blue, a cord wrapped around her neck in a deep furrow with a "garrote" dangling from it... and he asks Arndt if she is dead?

Come on, HOTYH. At least admit that he had to have known that she was already dead, even if he didn't want to believe it.
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Granted, any parent would not want to accept that their child was dead. .

JR, not accepting that JBR was dead despite the rigor, asks LA if she's dead.

By your own standard, JR was behaving just like 'any parent'.

TY

 

[CathyR]

First stage of grief is DENIAL.

The fibers I think are the most related to who killed her are the ones on her thighs and vaginal area. Where is THAT cloth? Who ever wiped her down is in a direct involvement of fiber transfer and finding that piece of evidence is probably the MOST important fiber evidence.

 

[otg]

By your own standard, JR was behaving just like 'any parent'.
TY

No, I said that any parent would want to think she was still alive. I didn't say that any parent would continue to deny reality in the face of obvious corpse rot. (Denying reality only goes so far, whether it is from John or from you, HOTYH.)
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[UKGuy]

The Rs' were not the first family to live in that house. And the R's hosted a tour of their home in 1994, when hundreds of people were trekked through the dwelling. The WC room was no secret. As for opening the door, an above-eye-level latch is not difficult to detect and operate.

None of the DNA matches either parent, nor the brother. The FBI-verified samples are good enough to log and file, and does not match anyone living at the dwelling nor other family members and friends. That suggests an "intruder".

Fibers transfer quite easily and silently, especially between members of a family and friends when they are welcoming (hug, shake hands) and also via air transfer.

JR and PR hugged friends as they arrived to the house .. that action can loosen fibers from clothing, flick them in to the environment where the fibers can stick to other clothing, shoes, etc. The police might have received fiber transfer from the Rs and / or others.

There is no reason fibers from either parents clothing should not be on JBR. Both parents made physical contact with JBR's body. JR held JBR's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs and knelt down and placed it on the floor. PR knelt down and leaned against JBR's body.

Motivation for the crime has not been established. The sexual aspect could be incidental to the primary motivation.

ChuckMaureen,
Just because the touch-dna does not match any resident Ramsey, it does not follow that one or more of them were not involved in JonBenet's death.

As I mentioned before your selective reasoning portrays you as a Ramsey apologist.

The motivation for the crime has been established. JonBenet was sexually molested prior to her death. The coroner cited digital penetration and sexual contact that in anyones language IDI or RDI, reference Lou Smit, means JonBenet's death is a sexually motivated homicide.

That you wish to demote or ignore forensic evidence simply weakens your rhetoric amongst the more knowledgable members here.


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