Prior Vaginal Trauma

[BBB167893]

..this is what I don't get..the 1cm how could that have happened that night?
there's no way.I just can't imagine that.
As a mother I also can't imagine my 6 year old daughter having to have repeated vaginal exams.I don't know of anyone who's child had to have that kind of exam at that age...
I almost feel as if PR was reaching out to the DR.As if she wanted him to examine further instead of reassuring her again and again nothing's wrong it's the bubble baths .....

That's exactly what Wendy Murphy said, cici.

 

[BBB167893]

If you have read everything available on JonBenet and can still come to the conclusion that she wasn't abused, you won't be convinced no matter what anyone says. Your rose colored glasses seem to be working pretty well. God forbid any of these things happen to someone you love, it's almost guaranteed you won't see it.

Maybe you were a bit rough on him, Beck. Not that I disagree, BTW.

 

[BBB167893]

All of LE and ME and doctors observation and opinion of the state of JBR .. has been based on post-mortem observation and examination of the body, and of testimony review and even possibly, after years of stagnant investigation, a pressure to reach to assured conclusion and conviction.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Chuck.

In another interview transcript, Beuf offers that he has reported incidents of sexual abuse during his career.

And how many of them was he, quote, "in awe" of?

There is no evidence to indicate nor even suggest that Beuf is covering for anyone in this case.

It could be argued that Beuf would have incentive to cover for himself, but that would suggest he "knew" or "held an opinion" that JBR was experiencing on-going abuse, that he chose to ignore it and allow for that young girl to continue experiencing said abuse, that he was willing to risk his practice and possibly his freedom (conspiracy charge) .. that he, as a doctor and a father would be so cold and distant from his medical and child charges as to allow such evil to prevail.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that he's covering for anyone, Chuck. In denial or willfully blind, perhaps, but not in on it.

I do admit what I had thought I had read regarding Beuf and vaginal examination and treatment helped lead me to more positive conclusion that that was as alternate cause.

I now recently realize that that evidence does not exist, that Beuf indeed had not actually examined the internals of JBR's vagina .. but that does not diminsh the fact that in totality as I observer it, even minus that piece .. I see no unequivocal proof of on-going abuse.

The fact that Beuf didn't look inside and did not experience the opportunity to see something that might or might not have been there does not lead me to believe that it was there .. even given the post-mortem observation.

You're a good guy, Chuck.

I see it as more of a possibility than I had previously thought but again, other evidence precludes me from going that far.

Such as?

 

[BBB167893]

Hi, superdave,

YO!

Ok, so the FBI was referring to the "acute" injuries ...

That's right. You'd be surprised how often people try to misinterpret that statement.

• and those injuries are "not consistent with a history of sexual abuse."
• and the FBI "had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse." (assumed as) beyond the "acute" injuries.

FBI. No history of sexual abuse. Case closed.[/QUOTE]

Case in point.

When the FBI said that her acute injuries were not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, I'm pretty sure they were speaking about the idea that JB's death was a sex game gone wrong, and that this was just staging, possibly to try and cover up previous injuries. Secondly, I believe they were speaking of testimony about any other kind of abuse.

Case FAR from closed. I'm just getting started.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bubm

YO!



That's right. You'd be surprised how often people try to misinterpret that statement.

• and those injuries are "not consistent with a history of sexual abuse."
• and the FBI "had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse." (assumed as) beyond the "acute" injuries.

FBI. No history of sexual abuse. Case closed.

Case in point.

When the FBI said that her acute injuries were not consistent with a history of sexual abuse, I'm pretty sure they were speaking about the idea that JB's death was a sex game gone wrong, and that this was just staging, possibly to try and cover up previous injuries. Secondly, I believe they were speaking of testimony about any other kind of abuse.

Case FAR from closed. I'm just getting started.

"Pretty sure" .. ?

The FBI "had turned up no evidence of any other type of abuse." (assumed as) beyond the "acute" injuries.

The FBI did not differentiate whether the "acute" abuse of that evening occurred pre- or post-mortem, only that it did occur and was not consistent with a history of sexual abuse and seemed not to have been committed for the perp's gratification.

The FBI also indicated "the penetration, which caused minor genital trauma, was more likely part of a staged crime scene intended to mislead the police."




It seems to me if the perp was intent on covering up previous (historical) abuse, the injuries that night, penetration or otherwise which according to the FBI caused only minor trauma, would be much more invasive and injurious so as to ensure to obliterate 'historical' abuse indications.

• FBI, no evidence of history of abuse.
• Beuf, no evidence of history of either physical or emotional abuse.
• R friends, no evidence of history of abuse.
• R family, no evidence of history of abuse.
• AFAIK, no one from the pageant circuit has offered evidence of history of abuse.

... seems fairly obvious to me. No evidence of history of sexual abuse.

One other point .. unmatched DNA found under JBR's fingernails. That implies JBR scratched her murderer.

Were scratches found on any of the R family in residence the following morning, or afterward?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Were scratches found on any of the R family in residence the following morning, or afterward?

This would be 'smoking gun' evidence of RDI, and an arrest.

 

[Toltec]

This would be 'smoking gun' evidence of RDI, and an arrest.

Wrong! I believe JonBenet was hit over the head and therefore not able to defend herself against her attacker!

 

[akashana]

bubm



A perp certainly could wander through a house and even utilize its contents and not have a second thought.

I suspect if you've ever seen surveillance footage of home invaders roam a dwelling with carefree abandon, you'd realize that for some people there are no boundaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdGY8S8CvK8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ygZ58bPuw

There is no forensic evidence that has been matched to any intruder as of yet, but certainly there is evidence to suggest an intruder, such as the DNA found under JBR's fingernails and in the mix of fluids found in her crotch area and also DNA found on the metal baseball bat found on the property.

As for evidence linking both parents to the crime scene .. which evidence might that be and to which "scene"?

I must point out that in the above videos you cited, the perps were clearly roaming about unoccupied dwellings, which is quite a bit different than a murderer walking around inside a home with two sleeping adults and a child inside.

If someone else has already pointed out the obvious, sorry, but I couldn't read further until it was noted.

 

[akashana]

The Rs' were not the first family to live in that house. And the R's hosted a tour of their home in 1994, when hundreds of people were trekked through the dwelling. The WC room was no secret. As for opening the door, an above-eye-level latch is not difficult to detect and operate.

None of the DNA matches either parent, nor the brother. The FBI-verified samples are good enough to log and file, and does not match anyone living at the dwelling nor other family members and friends. That suggests an "intruder".

Fibers transfer quite easily and silently, especially between members of a family and friends when they are welcoming (hug, shake hands) and also via air transfer.

JR and PR hugged friends as they arrived to the house .. that action can loosen fibers from clothing, flick them in to the environment where the fibers can stick to other clothing, shoes, etc. The police might have received fiber transfer from the Rs and / or others.

There is no reason fibers from either parents clothing should not be on JBR. Both parents made physical contact with JBR's body. JR held JBR's body close to his chest as he transported it up the stairs and knelt down and placed it on the floor. PR knelt down and leaned against JBR's body.

Motivation for the crime has not been established. The sexual aspect could be incidental to the primary motivation.

MY BOLD

You can't seriously be suggesting that the home tour included the dusty wine cellar, can you? Or for that matter, any portions of the basement!

 

[akashana]

Hi, superdave,






I stand corrected.

But I do maintain the history of vaginitus most likely explains the chronic inflammation given there is no evidence of "[chronic] sexual abuse", as it has never been reported by family or friends or LE that sexual abuse occurred or was witnessed during that and previous years.

The history of vaginitus might be viewed as the prevailing cause .. it does not exclude the possibility of sexual abuse .. but the vaginitus is documented over time while no such information exists regarding abuse.

MY BOLD

Therein lies the crux of the problem. This is not a family who is capable of acknowledging, let alone reporting incest or sexual abuse perpetrated upon one of its own, by one of its own. The denial is so deep that it led to murder. Always remember Nedra's comment that JB was "only a little bit molested." In what universe or galaxy does it become okay for a grandmother to excuse her granddaughter's sexual abuse because, in her opinion, it was slight? As long as Patsy's suspicions could be allayed as JB's chronic vaginitis, her sexually provocative "flirting" attributed to pageant training as opposed to the sexually acting out that it was, all would be well in the World of Ramsey. When that no longer was possible, there was hell to pay, and JonBenet's death became collateral damage.

 

[MurriFlower]

MY BOLD

You can't seriously be suggesting that the home tour included the dusty wine cellar, can you? Or for that matter, any portions of the basement!

Scuse my butt in here, but I believe the basement was where they set up the "sign in" and my understanding is that everyone who visited were ushered into the basement:

PR: I, when we had the home tour, that Christmas tour a couple of years ago, I cleaned it up and let the volunteers use that. They kind of made a little office down in the basement. You know, there were a lot of, all those volunteers would have been in that basement. Talking about who would have known about that cellar room.

TT: What part of the basement did they have their office down there?

PR: Well, I just had a little card table set up, and there were, is this ok to skip back to when we were talking about?

TT: Sure.

PR: You know, they had to like register, sign in. There was going to be a tour guide, that sort of thing. So a lot of people would have been down in that basement. I know it was couple of years ago, but you, I didn’t even go back down at all with them, they could have wondered back down there.

TT: OK. Now is there a sign-in list some place, who ran the sign I list.

PR: Jane Cronick was the, like the house chairman or something like that. And I bet she would have a list of those people.

TT: OK. Betty Cronick?

PR: But, I don’t know if they still kept it, but if anybody would, Mrs. (inaudible) might. I’m sorry (inaudible) what were we talking about? Oh a thought just occurred to me, it would have been a lot more people down there.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

I must point out that in the above videos you cited, the perps were clearly roaming about unoccupied dwellings, which is quite a bit different than a murderer walking around inside a home with two sleeping adults and a child inside.

If someone else has already pointed out the obvious, sorry, but I couldn't read further until it was noted.

Burglars enter occupied homes, as well.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCPi00YvLgk[/ame]

This creep entered the bedroom wher ethe homeowners were sleeping and stole items: http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-wickliffe-burglar-family-sleeping-txt,0,3195723.story


Another home invasion .. http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/15/911-calls-video-released-in-cheshire-home-invasion/

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTDH26yT85E[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TrcyZGcGak[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0u6lzkGU3U[/ame]

I cannot locate a video I had seen in 2006 .. I think it was a Florida home. Home surveillance camera caught 3 persons break in to an occupied home, and 2 of them began ransacking the place and the other walked directly to the bedroom to seek out the owners.

They gathered the 3 people living in the house in the living room and forced them to lie face down ... and quite casually one of the burlglars shot each of the them, one at a time, and he took his time.

No panic, no hurry .. so casual.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

MY BOLD

You can't seriously be suggesting that the home tour included the dusty wine cellar, can you? Or for that matter, any portions of the basement!

I suppose that would depend on the curiosity of any of the attendees.

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyya CM.

The coroner prooved there was no underlying hemmorhage; no bleeding, no "bruise", by definition.

http://www.wordnik.com/words/ecchymosis

yes, by definition.

 

[cynic]

MY BOLD

You can't seriously be suggesting that the home tour included the dusty wine cellar, can you? Or for that matter, any portions of the basement!

It was a main floor tour, definitely:
Around two thousand visitors had streamed through our house during the Christmas 1994 Historic Boulder Homes Tour. It would not have been difficult for the future killer to roam through our place as part of one of those groups, even sneaking downstairs for a look at the basement area or upstairs to find JonBenet's room."
DOI, Page 366

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Wrong! I believe JonBenet was hit over the head and therefore not able to defend herself against her attacker!

What I meant was that if PR or JR had scratches that morning, it would be smoking gun evidence against them, and it would lead to arrest and charges.

 

[Tadpole12]

There was NO exploratory exam performed on JB by her doctor, by his own admission. NO pelvic exam, NO internal observation. He examined her externally and that was all. I have never seen any report of Patsy being given creams to use on JB INTERNALLY, and if you have a link to such information please share it.

Hi DeeDee.

No, there is no report concerning that matter.

I had mentioned diaper cream in our discussion of 'cellulose', and if wooden particles could be the only interpration of what the birefringent material could be. Cellulose is a filler for creams.

 

[DeeDee249]

Hi DeeDee.

No, there is no report concerning that matter.

I had mentioned diaper cream in our discussion of 'cellulose', and if wooden particles could be the only interpration of what the birefringent material could be. Cellulose is a filler for creams.

It has been mentioned here that talc could also be considered a birefringent material, and if latex gloves were used, they also have a talc coating. Some have suggested that any tiny paint flakes from the brush handle could be considered birefringent material as well. Not sure if cellulose is a filler for diaper creams, it's been awhile since I was diapering babies and my grandkids don't have diaper rash.

As far as JB's doctor and his observations- if he didn't perform an internal exam (and we know he didn't) there was really no way for him to see the condition of her hymen. If he suspected anything, he may not have wanted to address it- and as he was legally bound to report suspected abuse I can't say I am surprised at his statements refuting it.
JB's everyday behavior may not have raised any suspicions among those who new her- she was said to be outgoing, bright and friendly. No red flags there. But there were other signs -her "sexualized behavior", the wetting and soiling of BOTH the bed and while awake are big signs, especially the soiling and especially while awake. Sometimes it is because the child is irritated and excreting or urinating is uncomfortable and holds it in until they can't any more. Sexual abuse is not the ONLY cause for such irritation but it IS a cause. But in children who wet and soil and who have been found dead with traces of blood in the vagina along with hymenal erosion and other injuries, I'd say sexual abuse would be the first thing I'd consider.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

The detectives in the BPD were given a tutorial on female genitalia, then they were shown pictures of JonBenet's genitals. They decided there was prior molestation, are they just mistaken, and if so why?
.

I think for the reasons stated in the article I quoted.

The 'text book' that many experts had used to instruct them was written by someone who merely stated his own opinion. It was not backed up by research nor was it subjective. He examined abused girls, drew conclusions from what he saw, and concluded that he could recognise the signs of sexual abuse. Never did he examine groups of girls who had not been abused and compared them to abused girls. Many others used this publication as instruction when they examined abused girls also and drew conclusions from it.

However, when a 'blind' experiment was carried out by Dr McCann, he discovered that he was unable to tell the abused from non-abused girls using the accepted techniques he had learned. There was a quote something to the effect that the concurrence of a group of experts was no substitute for research. I think this is very telling, seeing as how it was McCann who said this.

We do know that JBR suffered a number of vaginal infections and also that she was abused on the night in question. This complicates the issue. Also, as the panel of 'experts' would be unlikely to have seen the genitals of many dead girls, I'm not sure how they could conclude that the 1cm dilation was excessive. Another quote from the article was also relevant, and it went something like Doctors who proclaim themselves 'experts' in the field and give the DA's the results they seek get to testify more often.

BTW, I wonder what the motivation for showing pictures of JBRs genitals to the BPD would have been? If they 'decided' it was prior molestation, by the instruction they were given, perhaps the instructor was same 'expert' who was used to giving prosecutors affirmative answers to questions about whether a girl was sexually abused or not and who also learned his 'trade' from a flawed text.

 

[Tadpole12]

The DNA and prior abuse are not mutually exclusive.

If prior abuse happened and in a separate incident an unknown male intruder killed JBR, wouldn't that be astronomically remote? I mean a 6 year old victimized twice in separate incidents? Was there some other IDI theory whereby an unknown male who previously abused JBR then killed her on another day?

While this discussion on prior abuse is sometimes interesting it seems to factor out other evidence. IOW the DNA tends to direct the IDI theories toward an unknown male who did not previously abuse JBR. So the discussion on prior abuse becomes somewhat moot, at least within IDI.

It also fails to characterize the killer who thru both words and deeds has demonstrated a capacity for brutal violence directed at children. Not likely a situational molester who nobody ever saw or knew about AND JBR kept quiet about.

Heyya hotyh.

True that the touch dna also excludes so many close to the Ramseys,
unless it was a two man operation.