Prior Vaginal Trauma

[Tadpole12]

Were scratches found on any of the R family in residence the following morning, or afterward?

Heyya CM.

Refresh my memory, please.
Were they even examined, beyond what could be seen that day, (face and hands).

 

[Tadpole12]

It has been mentioned here that talc could also be considered a birefringent material, and if latex gloves were used, they also have a talc coating. Some have suggested that any tiny paint flakes from the brush handle could be considered birefringent material as well. Not sure if cellulose is a filler for diaper creams, it's been awhile since I was diapering babies and my grandkids don't have diaper rash.

As far as JB's doctor and his observations- if he didn't perform an internal exam (and we know he didn't) there was really no way for him to see the condition of her hymen. If he suspected anything, he may not have wanted to address it- and as he was legally bound to report suspected abuse I can't say I am surprised at his statements refuting it.
JB's everyday behavior may not have raised any suspicions among those who new her- she was said to be outgoing, bright and friendly. No red flags there. But there were other signs -her "sexualized behavior", the wetting and soiling of BOTH the bed and while awake are big signs, especially the soiling and especially while awake. Sometimes it is because the child is irritated and excreting or urinating is uncomfortable and holds it in until they can't any more. Sexual abuse is not the ONLY cause for such irritation but it IS a cause. But in children who wet and soil and who have been found dead with traces of blood in the vagina along with hymenal erosion and other injuries, I'd say sexual abuse would be the first thing I'd consider.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+and+2+o'clock+abuse&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

• [FONT=굴림]Vaginal Conditions:[/FONT]

• [FONT=굴림]Pediatric [/FONT]

• • [FONT=굴림]Sexual abuse should always be considered in prepubertal children[/FONT]

• [FONT=굴림] with vaginal discharge[/FONT]

• • [FONT=굴림]Routine STD cultures in girls with a history of sexual abuse[/FONT]

• [FONT=굴림] Vaginal culture for gonorrhea and chlamydia should be performed[/FONT]

• [FONT=굴림][/FONT]

• • [FONT=굴림]Vulvovaginitis [/FONT]
    • [FONT=굴림]Usually caused by multiple organisms in perineal area [/FONT]
    • [FONT=굴림]Single organism, streptococcus or Shigella, may be causative[/FONT]
    • [FONT=굴림]Treatment[/FONT]

• [FONT=굴림]→ Hygienic and cleansing measures[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]&#8594; Short-term (<4 weeks) course of topical estrogens [/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;] & broad-spectrum antibiotics[/FONT]
  

 

[MurriFlower]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+and+2+o'clock+abuse&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Vaginal Conditions:[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Pediatric [/FONT]

• • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Sexual abuse should always be considered in prepubertal children[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;] with vaginal discharge[/FONT]

• • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Routine STD cultures in girls with a history of sexual abuse[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;] Vaginal culture for gonorrhea and chlamydia should be performed[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;][/FONT]

• • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Vulvovaginitis [/FONT]
    • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Usually caused by multiple organisms in perineal area [/FONT]
    • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Single organism, streptococcus or Shigella, may be causative[/FONT]
    • [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]Treatment[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]&#8594; Hygienic and cleansing measures[/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;]&#8594; Short-term (<4 weeks) course of topical estrogens [/FONT]

• [FONT=&#44404;&#47548;] & broad-spectrum antibiotics[/FONT]
  

Wow Tad

What's with the BIG words??

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Wrong! I believe JonBenet was hit over the head and therefore not able to defend herself against her attacker!

There was unmatched DNA found under at least some of JBR's fingernails.

Unless the perp manipulated JBR's fingers to scratch himself or another unknown person, JBR scratched at someone with strong enough force to accumulate material from which DNA could be extracted:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA-Evidence#MaleDNAUnderFingernails

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Hi, deedee,

bbm

It has been mentioned here that talc could also be considered a birefringent material, and if latex gloves were used, they also have a talc coating. Some have suggested that any tiny paint flakes from the brush handle could be considered birefringent material as well. Not sure if cellulose is a filler for diaper creams, it's been awhile since I was diapering babies and my grandkids don't have diaper rash.

As far as JB's doctor and his observations- if he didn't perform an internal exam (and we know he didn't) there was really no way for him to see the condition of her hymen. If he suspected anything, he may not have wanted to address it- and as he was legally bound to report suspected abuse I can't say I am surprised at his statements refuting it.
JB's everyday behavior may not have raised any suspicions among those who new her- she was said to be outgoing, bright and friendly. No red flags there. But there were other signs -her "sexualized behavior", the wetting and soiling of BOTH the bed and while awake are big signs, especially the soiling and especially while awake. Sometimes it is because the child is irritated and excreting or urinating is uncomfortable and holds it in until they can't any more. Sexual abuse is not the ONLY cause for such irritation but it IS a cause. But in children who wet and soil and who have been found dead with traces of blood in the vagina along with hymenal erosion and other injuries, I'd say sexual abuse would be the first thing I'd consider.

The external surface of the hymen is accessible and viewable at the opening to the vagina .. no need to penetrate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen

The Hymen is a fold of mucous membrane that surrounds or partially covers the external vaginal opening. It forms part of the vulva, or external genitalia.

Prepubescent girls' hymenal openings come in many shapes, depending on hormonal and activity level, the most common being crescentic (posterior rim): no tissue at the 12 o'clock position; crescent-shaped band of tissue from 1–2 to 10–11 o'clock, at its widest around 6 o'clock. From puberty onwards, depending on estrogen and activity levels, the hymenal tissue may be thicker, and the opening is often fimbriated or erratically shaped.

The autopsy reveals a 'normal' hymen shape.

The "1 x 1 cm hymenal orifice" is considered large compared to the proposed typical 1mm / year sizing (.6 cm expected).

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682513/The-Body#VaginalArea

• Abrasion

1. General Location. "A 1 cm red-purple area of abrasion is located on the right posterolateral area of the 1 X 1 cm hymenal orifice."
2. Hymen. "The hymen itself is represented by a rim of mucosal tissue extending clockwise between the 2 and 10:00 positions."
3. Specific Location. "The area of abrasion is present at approximately the 7:00 position and appears to involve the hymen and distal right lateral vaginal wall and possibly the area anterior to the hymen."

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Heyya CM.

Refresh my memory, please.
Were they even examined, beyond what could be seen that day, (face and hands).

I have not yet located a report nor interview that provides that specific detail.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I have not yet located a report nor interview that provides that specific detail.

Hmm.:waitasec: Wonder why?

 

[Becky319]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckMaureen
I have not yet located a report nor interview that provides that specific detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
Hmm. Wonder why?
__________________
All my posts are my opinion only!

Bad police work?

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Hmm.:waitasec: Wonder why?

One might guess the result did not fit in with a preconceived assumption of guilt?

Perhaps an exculpatory result?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Bad police work?

How many times does RDI get to use that excuse?

According to various RDI, the police allowed the crime scene to be contaminated, overlooked vital evidence, allowed other vital evidence to be removed, and put unrelated DNA on the blood spot on the inside crotch area of JBR's underwear.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

One might guess the result did not fit in with a preconceived assumption of guilt?

Perhaps an exculpatory result?

Ya think?

Okay, better if I add "In My Opinion"??? Because that's what had to have happened. I do believe the Ramseys paid Dr. Beuf to look the other way.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Originally Posted by LinasK
Okay, better if I add "In My Opinion"??? Because that's what had to have happened. I do believe the Ramseys paid Dr. Beuf to look the other way.

Via cash?

And what of Dr. Beuf's employees and / or co-workers, i.e.: attending nurse(s), day-off subs, etc?

Do you believe they, too, were paid to look the other way or that they never were permitted an opportunity to attend while Dr. Bleuf visited with JBR and presumably with PR in-the-exam-room?

It is a possibility, but there is no proof.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Via cash?

And what of Dr. Beuf's employees and / or co-workers, i.e.: attending nurse(s), day-off subs, etc?

Do you believe they, too, were paid to look the other way or that they never were permitted an opportunity to attend while Dr. Bleuf visited with JBR and presumably with PR in-the-exam-room?

It is a possibility, but there is no proof.

It goes on and on:

it's a pretty safe bet that was Mary Lacy's agreement with Bode all along: find the result I want, and you can get advertising money can't buy. And they did--both.

 

[Toltec]

There was unmatched DNA found under at least some of JBR's fingernails.

Unless the perp manipulated JBR's fingers to scratch himself or another unknown person, JBR scratched at someone with strong enough force to accumulate material from which DNA could be extracted:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682463/DNA-Evidence#MaleDNAUnderFingernails

No manipulation required...whatever was or wasn't found under JonBenet's fingernails were already compromised with the dirty nailclippers.

First and foremost...when did JonBenet last bathe?? Was Patsy ever asked if JonBenet bathed Christmas Eve? We know she didn't bathe Christmas Day. Patsy claimed that if JonBenet was a typical child..if she could get away with not washing her hands, she would.

Can u imagine how much DNA JonBenet picked up within a 24/48 hour period?

 

[BBB167893]

bubm

"Pretty sure" .. ?

It's what I've got.

It seems to me if the perp was intent on covering up previous (historical) abuse, the injuries that night, penetration or otherwise which according to the FBI caused only minor trauma, would be much more invasive and injurious so as to ensure to obliterate 'historical' abuse indications.

This isn't the first time I've run across that line of thinking, Chuck. But it doesn't take a lot of things into account. For one thing, maybe they thought they had done enough. Or did all they could do.

One other point .. unmatched DNA found under JBR's fingernails. That implies JBR scratched her murderer.

You're not the first to claim that, Chuck. It doesn't wash, though. The DNA under JB's nails was so decayed that it only had two identifiable markers, and they had to amplify it to get that many. Last I knew, not even Mary Lacy was touting it. For all intents and purposes, it's in the trash heap.

Now, there was something else you said, and it ties in with nobody knowing about possible abuse:

Yes, we all "know" that child molesters are fantastic and magical about hiding their predilection, that no one ever suspects them, that no one is ever aware of the behind-closed-doors abuse going on under their very noses ... even to a point where it appears a conspiracy.

But, do we really know? Is that above paragraph text so definitive and factual that it is always without exception?

Well, I don't know about that, Chuck. All I have to go on is the record. And the sad fact is, the record is bleak. There's nothing magical or fantastical about it, either. I can honestly say I WISH there were! We think we're all so hip to the problem and that these creeps are so easy to spot, but the sad fact is that literally EVERY SINGLE THING has to go completely right for one of these creeps to get caught.

Let me try to put it in perspective for you: according to at least one FBI statistic I read, as many as 60% of rape victims do not report their rapes. Of the ones that do, only about 40% of the rapists are arrested. Of those arrested, only about 15% ever see prison time. The reason for this is obvious: because rape is the only crime where the victim can be victimized twice, first by the act itself, then by having to relive it to the police and then in court, where slimy defense lawyers will drag them through hell and back. For most of them, it's just not worth the trauma.

And bear in mind: these are adult women, supposedly in complete control of their faculties. Imagine now how hard it must be for a small child to come forward. It's their innocence and inability to fight back that makes them such tempting targets. They don't always know it's wrong, and if the perp is a loved one, they may come to associate it with love. More than one child has said that they liked it. Others simply process it as part of life and move on. We keep being told what to look for in abused children: sexual acting out, compulsive masturbation, exaggerated startle reflex, etc. But something like 80% of abused children show NO behavioral symptoms.

And even if they DO know it's wrong, children are extremely easy to manipulate through bribery or intimidation. Couple that with the child's own fear that if they do tell an adult, the adult won't believe them and might punish them for telling "lies," especially if the perp is a loved one.

But I'll tell you what. Don't take my word for any of this. The people you should be talking to are LinasK and joeskidbeck, among others. They know.

 

[BBB167893]

Wrong! I believe JonBenet was hit over the head and therefore not able to defend herself against her attacker!

You're not alone, Toltec. Not by a damn sight.

 

[BBB167893]

MY BOLD

Therein lies the crux of the problem. This is not a family who is capable of acknowledging, let alone reporting incest or sexual abuse perpetrated upon one of its own, by one of its own. The denial is so deep that it led to murder. Always remember Nedra's comment that JB was "only a little bit molested." In what universe or galaxy does it become okay for a grandmother to excuse her granddaughter's sexual abuse because, in her opinion, it was slight? As long as Patsy's suspicions could be allayed as JB's chronic vaginitis, her sexually provocative "flirting" attributed to pageant training as opposed to the sexually acting out that it was, all would be well in the World of Ramsey. When that no longer was possible, there was hell to pay, and JonBenet's death became collateral damage.

That's the way I look at it, too.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

It's what I've got.



This isn't the first time I've run across that line of thinking, Chuck. But it doesn't take a lot of things into account. For one thing, maybe they thought they had done enough. Or did all they could do.



You're not the first to claim that, Chuck. It doesn't wash, though. The DNA under JB's nails was so decayed that it only had two identifiable markers, and they had to amplify it to get that many. Last I knew, not even Mary Lacy was touting it. For all intents and purposes, it's in the trash heap.

Now, there was something else you said, and it ties in with nobody knowing about possible abuse:



Well, I don't know about that, Chuck. All I have to go on is the record. And the sad fact is, the record is bleak. There's nothing magical or fantastical about it, either. I can honestly say I WISH there were! We think we're all so hip to the problem and that these creeps are so easy to spot, but the sad fact is that literally EVERY SINGLE THING has to go completely right for one of these creeps to get caught.

Let me try to put it in perspective for you: according to at least one FBI statistic I read, as many as 60% of rape victims do not report their rapes. Of the ones that do, only about 40% of the rapists are arrested. Of those arrested, only about 15% ever see prison time. The reason for this is obvious: because rape is the only crime where the victim can be victimized twice, first by the act itself, then by having to relive it to the police and then in court, where slimy defense lawyers will drag them through hell and back. For most of them, it's just not worth the trauma.

And bear in mind: these are adult women, supposedly in complete control of their faculties. Imagine now how hard it must be for a small child to come forward. It's their innocence and inability to fight back that makes them such tempting targets. They don't always know it's wrong, and if the perp is a loved one, they may come to associate it with love. More than one child has said that they liked it. Others simply process it as part of life and move on. We keep being told what to look for in abused children: sexual acting out, compulsive masturbation, exaggerated startle reflex, etc. But something like 80% of abused children show NO behavioral symptoms.

And even if they DO know it's wrong, children are extremely easy to manipulate through bribery or intimidation. Couple that with the child's own fear that if they do tell an adult, the adult won't believe them and might punish them for telling "lies," especially if the perp is a loved one.

But I'll tell you what. Don't take my word for any of this. The people you should be talking to are LinasK and joeskidbeck, among others. They know.

Since we're broad-brushing the abuse reactions of children, as to 'typical' behavior and such, let's continue with that to this point:

How many child-sex crimes, ending in murder of the child in their own home in what is labeled (by FBI in Ramsey case) as a "staged scene", with the guilty party being a family member?

 

[MurriFlower]

It's what I've got.



This isn't the first time I've run across that line of thinking, Chuck. But it doesn't take a lot of things into account. For one thing, maybe they thought they had done enough. Or did all they could do.



You're not the first to claim that, Chuck. It doesn't wash, though. The DNA under JB's nails was so decayed that it only had two identifiable markers, and they had to amplify it to get that many. Last I knew, not even Mary Lacy was touting it. For all intents and purposes, it's in the trash heap.

Now, there was something else you said, and it ties in with nobody knowing about possible abuse:



Well, I don't know about that, Chuck. All I have to go on is the record. And the sad fact is, the record is bleak. There's nothing magical or fantastical about it, either. I can honestly say I WISH there were! We think we're all so hip to the problem and that these creeps are so easy to spot, but the sad fact is that literally EVERY SINGLE THING has to go completely right for one of these creeps to get caught.

Let me try to put it in perspective for you: according to at least one FBI statistic I read, as many as 60% of rape victims do not report their rapes. Of the ones that do, only about 40% of the rapists are arrested. Of those arrested, only about 15% ever see prison time. The reason for this is obvious: because rape is the only crime where the victim can be victimized twice, first by the act itself, then by having to relive it to the police and then in court, where slimy defense lawyers will drag them through hell and back. For most of them, it's just not worth the trauma.

And bear in mind: these are adult women, supposedly in complete control of their faculties. Imagine now how hard it must be for a small child to come forward. It's their innocence and inability to fight back that makes them such tempting targets. They don't always know it's wrong, and if the perp is a loved one, they may come to associate it with love. More than one child has said that they liked it. Others simply process it as part of life and move on. We keep being told what to look for in abused children: sexual acting out, compulsive masturbation, exaggerated startle reflex, etc. But something like 80% of abused children show NO behavioral symptoms.

And even if they DO know it's wrong, children are extremely easy to manipulate through bribery or intimidation. Couple that with the child's own fear that if they do tell an adult, the adult won't believe them and might punish them for telling "lies," especially if the perp is a loved one.

But I'll tell you what. Don't take my word for any of this. The people you should be talking to are LinasK and joeskidbeck, among others. They know.

I think what you are saying is that NO EVIDENCE of sexual abuse is therefore EVIDENCE. This is what you are implying at least. It is an interesting argument, emotive, but totally baseless.

It's really important to RDI that they have this "motive" for JBR's parents to kill their child. If it's not that, then it's bedwetting or soiling. Or it could even be that she got up that night and ate pineapple without permission LOL.

If there WAS clear evidence of sexual abuse, physical abuse or mental illness in either or both of her parents or sibling, then it might be cause for further investigation. There was NONE.

No evidence is just that, no evidence.

 

[BBB167893]

Also, as the panel of 'experts' would be unlikely to have seen the genitals of many dead girls, I'm not sure how they could conclude that the 1cm dilation was excessive.

Does this help:

In a September 1999 study for the Medical Journal Family Medicine titled "Genital Findings in Prepubertal Girls Evaluated for Sexual Abuse: A Different Perspective on Hymeneal Measurements," Dr. Perry Pugno said:
"Girls with no definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 2.3 mm and in general showed an increase of approximately 1 mm per year of age. Girls with definitive signs of genital trauma exhibited a mean transhymenal diameter of 9.0 mm and no significant variance with age. Correcting for age differences, the transhymenal diameter was highly significant as a differentiating factor (F=1079, P<.001). When compared against the criterion standard, the transhymenal measurement is 99% specific and 79% sensitive as a screening tool."

Or maybe this:

Dr. Robert Kirschner, from the University of Chicago, Department of Pathology, weighed in as well. In a 1997 article for Vanity Fair magazine written by Ann Bardach, he stated:
"The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation." "If she had been taken to a hospital emergency room, and doctors had seen the genital evidence, her father would have been arrested"

BTW, I wonder what the motivation for showing pictures of JBRs genitals to the BPD would have been? If they 'decided' it was prior molestation, by the instruction they were given, perhaps the instructor was same 'expert' who was used to giving prosecutors affirmative answers to questions about whether a girl was sexually abused or not and who also learned his 'trade' from a flawed text.

It was actually Jane Harmer, one of the detectives.