Prior Vaginal Trauma

  • #741
Didn't she have a 'smell of decomposition about her' according to Arndt, when she was found at 1pm on the 26th? The autopsy wasn't conducted until the morning of the 27th. So, decomposition was well under way.

Decomposition was under way, but not WELL under way. JB was not yet in the "wet" decomposition stage. That begins after rigor mortis subsides completely (on its own, not when "broken" by the coroner or a funeral director), about 36 -40 hours after death That is when the real "odor of death" begins, and believe me, it is more than just an "odor of decay" as described by Det. Arndt. She was trained (as are all LE) and knew the odor well, but JB was not a "stinking, rotting" corpse by any means. There was no putrification at that point.
What she noticed on JB was likely the beginning of the postmortem bacterial activity in her intestines. Gases are building up inside. The first place you'll see evidence of it if you were to have seen a body at that stage would be a greenish discoloration over the abdomen, in the area of the intestines. JB was almost there, with the coroner reporting the "soft, green fecal material" in JB's intestines. Had it been a few hours later, the green color would have been apparent on the outside surface of her abdomen.
 
  • #742
Decomposition was under way, but not WELL under way. JB was not yet in the "wet" decomposition stage. That begins after rigor mortis subsides completely (on its own, not when "broken" by the coroner or a funeral director), about 36 -40 hours after death That is when the real "odor of death" begins, and believe me, it is more than just an "odor of decay" as described by Det. Arndt. She was trained (as are all LE) and knew the odor well, but JB was not a "stinking, rotting" corpse by any means. There was no putrification at that point.
What she noticed on JB was likely the beginning of the postmortem bacterial activity in her intestines. Gases are building up inside. The first place you'll see evidence of it if you were to have seen a body at that stage would be a greenish discoloration over the abdomen, in the area of the intestines. JB was almost there, with the coroner reporting the "soft, green fecal material" in JB's intestines. Had it been a few hours later, the green color would have been apparent on the outside surface of her abdomen.

Oh OK thanks DD, I've wondered what the green material was, I had thought it was something with green food colouring that she had eaten. No, I wasn't suggesting she was a "stinking, rotting corpse", although I think one of the RDI suggested this recently when he was referrring to the reason JR was holding her at arms length!!
 
  • #743
Just read this, and I don't know why I haven't noticed it previously: (my bold)

"Mary Keenan: Deputy DA who was present in the Ramsey house the day the body was found. Her specialty is sexual abuse and assault.
Keenan ran for and was elected to the office of Boulder County District Attorney in November 2000. She officially took office on January 9, 2001. She is the first new Boulder County District Attorney since Alex Hunter took office in 1973"

Now wasn't this the same Mary, as DA who is blamed for exhonerating the Rs? This is strange, if she was actually present in the house AND was a sexual assault specialist, BUT did not believe they had murdered/sexually assaulted their daughter eh?
 
  • #744
My daughter is almost six and she still wets the bed...(well, in her pullups). Her vaginal area is constantly red from urine sitting there and she has accidents while playing. She waits until the last minute to use the toilet and most of the time she wets herself.

Her vaginal area is a bit larger than normal...I don't know if it is caused by wetting. I am worried that sometimes she does place things in her vaginal area while she sits in the bath.

She is not an abused child...believe me I watch her like a hawk. She knows to tell me if someone is messing with her...in fact, she told me her little cousin was rubbing up against her and I reported if to child protective services.

Edited to add...I know this sounds horrible to some...my nephew rarely came around and now he is not welcome in my home. My daughter felt good coming to me and we spoke in length and she understands that her body is her own and we left it at that.
 
  • #745
Just read this, and I don't know why I haven't noticed it previously: (my bold)

"Mary Keenan: Deputy DA who was present in the Ramsey house the day the body was found. Her specialty is sexual abuse and assault.
Keenan ran for and was elected to the office of Boulder County District Attorney in November 2000. She officially took office on January 9, 2001. She is the first new Boulder County District Attorney since Alex Hunter took office in 1973"

Now wasn't this the same Mary, as DA who is blamed for exhonerating the Rs?

Yeah, I know it's hard to believe.

This is strange, if she was actually present in the house AND was a sexual assault specialist, BUT did not believe they had murdered/sexually assaulted their daughter eh?

It's not really that strange when you know more about her.

Now, by contrast, Wendy Murphy is a former sex crimes prosecutor with much more actual courtroom experience, and she believes both. Isn't that odd?
 
  • #746
Yeah, I know it's hard to believe.



It's not really that strange when you know more about her.

Now, by contrast, Wendy Murphy is a former sex crimes prosecutor with much more actual courtroom experience, and she believes both. Isn't that odd?

Oh right, and was Wendy Murphy present at the house on the day JBR was murdered too?
 
  • #747
Oh OK thanks DD, I've wondered what the green material was, I had thought it was something with green food colouring that she had eaten. No, I wasn't suggesting she was a "stinking, rotting corpse", although I think one of the RDI suggested this recently when he was referrring to the reason JR was holding her at arms length!!

It wasn't me!
 
  • #748
Oh right, and was Wendy Murphy present at the house on the day JBR was murdered too?

No, but I'm hard-pressed to see what that has to do with anything.

More to the point, this is the first time I've heard that Lacy WAS present at the house the day JB's body was found!
 
  • #749
My daughter is almost six and she still wets the bed...(well, in her pullups). Her vaginal area is constantly red from urine sitting there and she has accidents while playing. She waits until the last minute to use the toilet and most of the time she wets herself.

Her vaginal area is a bit larger than normal...I don't know if it is caused by wetting. I am worried that sometimes she does place things in her vaginal area while she sits in the bath.

She is not an abused child...believe me I watch her like a hawk. She knows to tell me if someone is messing with her...in fact, she told me her little cousin was rubbing up against her and I reported if to child protective services.

Edited to add...I know this sounds horrible to some...my nephew rarely came around and now he is not welcome in my home. My daughter felt good coming to me and we spoke in length and she understands that her body is her own and we left it at that.

Lots of kids wet the bed at that age. It isn't all that unusual. And it is also common for kids to be so absorbed in playing or other activities that they try to hold it in until they just can't anymore and then they have an accident. My little grandson does the same thing. Your daughter is perfectly normal. It isn't the age of the child that still wets the bed that is as much a concern as it is whether they had stopped wetting for a considerable length of time (years) and then began again.
When child has been dry for a few years and then starts to wet and soil their bed again as JB did, it should be a cause for concern. And when a child that has been potty trained for a few years begins to wet and soil their clothes while awake, as JB did, that is a major cause for concern.
 
  • #750
  • #751
  • #752
  • #753
My daughter is almost six and she still wets the bed...(well, in her pullups). Her vaginal area is constantly red from urine sitting there and she has accidents while playing. She waits until the last minute to use the toilet and most of the time she wets herself.

Her vaginal area is a bit larger than normal...I don't know if it is caused by wetting. I am worried that sometimes she does place things in her vaginal area while she sits in the bath.

She is not an abused child...believe me I watch her like a hawk. She knows to tell me if someone is messing with her...in fact, she told me her little cousin was rubbing up against her and I reported if to child protective services.

Edited to add...I know this sounds horrible to some...my nephew rarely came around and now he is not welcome in my home. My daughter felt good coming to me and we spoke in length and she understands that her body is her own and we left it at that.


Heyya Toltec.

Ty for sharing that first hand account re child's behaviour in tub. When researching tramatic injury and hymen, I had read that falling on an object in the tub, could mimic injury of sexual assault.
 
  • #754
Hey DeeDee.

I had a question for you ..... is brain weight mentioned in any of the material you have read, or does CW use this percentage to plump his theory?

I've been rereading archived headlines, re Cyril Wecht and Globe.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=6725,9946767&dq=jonbenet+ramsey&hl=en

The August 14, 1997 article,

'Corroner releases JonBenet Ramsey autopsy
Wecht concludes she was strangled during a sexual game, with later head injury to mislead on cause of death':

Wecht believes the Ramsey girl went into shock and died during the "sex game" while the cord was wrapped around her neck.
"At that point it was a dead 6-year-old girl. What do you do? You simulate a violent intruder." Wecht said.
JonBenet also had an 8-inch fracture in her skull and her brain was significantly swollen, making it 15 percent heavier than the normal weight of a brain for a 6-year old, Wecht said. If the head wound had occured first, she would have died within a matter of minutes, he said.
However, the autopsy results show there was very little blood in the cranial cavity, which houses the brain, an indication that JonBenet's
heart was beating very slowly or not at all when the injury to the head occured, he said.
"If I'm right in my scenario in that the neck ligature was applied first and that this sexual game or perversion was going on, then the head injury was inflicted later," Wecht said.
 
  • #755
Hey DeeDee.

I had a question for you ..... is brain weight mentioned in any of the material you have read, or does CW use this percentage to plump his theory?

I've been rereading archived headlines, re Cyril Wecht and Globe.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&pg=6725,9946767&dq=jonbenet+ramsey&hl=en

The August 14, 1997 article,

'Corroner releases JonBenet Ramsey autopsy
Wecht concludes she was strangled during a sexual game, with later head injury to mislead on cause of death':

Wecht believes the Ramsey girl went into shock and died during the "sex game" while the cord was wrapped around her neck.
"At that point it was a dead 6-year-old girl. What do you do? You simulate a violent intruder." Wecht said.
JonBenet also had an 8-inch fracture in her skull and her brain was significantly swollen, making it 15 percent heavier than the normal weight of a brain for a 6-year old, Wecht said. If the head wound had occured first, she would have died within a matter of minutes, he said.
However, the autopsy results show there was very little blood in the cranial cavity, which houses the brain, an indication that JonBenet's
heart was beating very slowly or not at all when the injury to the head occured, he said.
"If I'm right in my scenario in that the neck ligature was applied first and that this sexual game or perversion was going on, then the head injury was inflicted later," Wecht said.


Dr. Wecht makes certain assumptions to bolster his opinion:

bbm

http://www.wpxi.com/news/16838417/detail.html

PITTSBURGH --

Pittsburgh forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht responded to news that prosecutors have cleared JonBenet Ramsey's parents and brother in her murder.


The Boulder District Attorney said a new DNA test points to a mysterious outsider.


That test found skins [sic] cells on JonBenet's leggings that match a drop of blood found on her underwear.


"The fact that this other DNA was found at this time matches previous DNA which was thought to be a contaminant does not then alter the picture," said Wecht.


Wecht was not involved in the criminal investigation of the Ramsey murder but he reviewed all the evidence and eventually wrote a book about the case.


“Every male at the coroner's office, who may have touched the body, have they been tested for DNA, have comparisons been made with each and everyone of those people,” questioned Wecht.

'Contaminant' as in intentionally or unintentionally deposited from someone outside of the crime scene (house) or from anyone not involved in the crime.

It is possible, but ...

A valid question is, why was the 'previously-found' DNA thought to be contaminant material?

How many DNA labs maintain DNA records of their employees so that they might if necessary, rule out contamination from within?

Yes, some horror stories are floating around regarding DNA labs, but what we do not know is if lab employees were ruled out.

But ..

Would the lab allow an egregious error (lab contamination) stand for 9 years .. and then present additional DNA evidence that matches the previous sample, knowing full well the results could be compared against previous and existing lab employees DNA?

Nonsensical. I don't believe the lab would do so.

Dr. Wecht said it's difficult for him to believe an outsider would have known about the hidden room in the basement, would have left no other evidence, that he would write a ransom note then leave the body behind. Wecht says none of this explains evidence of previous sexual abuse on JonBenet's body.


The Room ("wine cellar")
The "wine cellar" room is not a "hidden" room, in the true sense of the word. A hallway leads to a door that opens to the room. Would a bathroom accessible only from within a bedroom be considered a "hidden" room?


No Other Evidence
Duct tape and nylon or polyester or whatever-material cord were left behind. They're in evidence.

If Wecht meant "DNA" evidence the article did not indicate as such but it is not impossible for a perp to leave minimal-to-no DNA material. The perp could have worn gloves, a wool cap, whatever.


Ransom Note ("RN")
I believe Wecht conflicts his own argument ..

Wecht stated he believed it was an "accidental" death.

If the perp composed the RN before the "accident" but was not prepared to transport a completely limp lifeless body that would soon begin to decompose and emit putrid aroma, why would he take it? I also do not believe he would risk retrieving the RN from the stairs .. he simply would leave.

Previous Sexual Abuse
Previous sexual abuse, if it did occur, does not preclude what occurred that evening regardless of it was the same person involved with previous or not.

JonBenet’s father, Jon Ramsey, told police he carried her body upstairs after finding her so Wecht wondered where is his DNA? "How is it possible that some DNA of his did not get on her body and her clothing in that kind of transfer. Think about that," said Wecht.


JonBenet had been strangled and bludgeoned, when her body was found in the basement of the family home in Boulder on Dec. 26, 1996. Her mother, Patsy Ramsey, said she found a ransom note demanding $118,000 for her daughter.

JR Carries JBR Form The Basement
Is Wecht implying there must be JR DNA on the body? It is reported (by some in this forum) JR held JBR's body away from his as he carried it (decay smell too strong?).

It also is reported (by some in this forum) fibers consistent with JR's shirt were found on the clothing or body, so that "kind of transfer" should satisfy Wecht's concern?

Dr. Wecht is a an extremely experienced forensic pathologist and coroner. Experience is progressively useful during a person's career but also can be a hinderance, i.e.: tunnel vision, especially during the latter periods of a long career.

"Typical", "Common" and "Usual" .. all well and good and applicable overall but those categories might not allow for the "Atypical", "Uncommon" and Unusual" to be properly perceived and prosecuted.
 
  • #756
A valid question is, why was the 'previously-found' DNA thought to be contaminant material?

Probably because of how decayed it was.

How many DNA labs maintain DNA records of their employees so that they might if necessary, rule out contamination from within?

I couldn't say.

Yes, some horror stories are floating around regarding DNA labs, but what we do not know is if lab employees were ruled out.

No, we don't.

But ..

Would the lab allow an egregious error (lab contamination) stand for 9 years .. and then present additional DNA evidence that matches the previous sample, knowing full well the results could be compared against previous and existing lab employees DNA?

Nonsensical. I don't believe the lab would do so.

With this case, who knows?

Ransom Note ("RN")
If the perp composed the RN before the "accident" but was not prepared to transport a completely limp lifeless body that would soon begin to decompose and emit putrid aroma, why would he take it?

My bold. That's what a lot of us want to know.

Previous Sexual Abuse
Previous sexual abuse, if it did occur, does not preclude what occurred that evening regardless of it was the same person involved with previous or not.

Interesting idea.

JR Carries JBR Form The Basement
Is Wecht implying there must be JR DNA on the body? It is reported (by some in this forum) JR held JBR's body away from his as he carried it (decay smell too strong?).

It also is reported (by some in this forum) fibers consistent with JR's shirt were found on the clothing or body, so that "kind of transfer" should satisfy Wecht's concern?

I'm not sure what you're saying, Chuck.
 
  • #757
The fibers from John's shirt that were found on JonBenet were from the shirt he wore the previous day to the White's party, not the shirt he had on when he found JonBenet.
Is Dr. Wecht not implying that John's "Touch" DNA would not have to be on the waistband of her longjohns since he carried her upright by her waist? If what I have been reading on here is true about touch dna, some transfer it easily while others, not so much. Maybe they just did not report John or Patsy's dna being found as it would be impossible for their dna to not show up on their daughter. But it would be interesting to know if J's dna was on the waistband of the longjohns as well as the un-identified.
 
  • #758
The fibers from John's shirt that were found on JonBenet were from the shirt he wore the previous day to the White's party, not the shirt he had on when he found JonBenet.
Is Dr. Wecht not implying that John's "Touch" DNA would not have to be on the waistband of her longjohns since he carried her upright by her waist? If what I have been reading on here is true about touch dna, some transfer it easily while others, not so much. Maybe they just did not report John or Patsy's dna being found as it would be impossible for their dna to not show up on their daughter. But it would be interesting to know if J's dna was on the waistband of the longjohns as well as the un-identified.

Either that, or the news blip I saw on it was accurate, and the machine separates DNA samples.
 
  • #759
Either that, or the news blip I saw on it was accurate, and the machine separates DNA samples.

I missed that blip, for sure. Did it happen to say if it could determine how many different profiles were on the evidence and if so, how many were there?
 
  • #760
I missed that blip, for sure. Did it happen to say if it could determine how many different profiles were on the evidence and if so, how many were there?

Sorry, Beck. They glossed over it. It was a two-minute soundbite, anyway.
 

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