Procedure and legal questions

[Phumi]

Here's a "way out there" question. Let me begin with the disclaimer that I in no way think this is the truth about KC, but I was wondering about it as a defense.

Multiple personality Disorder is quite rare, but it does exist. If the defense found an expert who concluded that ZFG was one of KC's "alternate personalities" and that ZFG did, in fact, kill Caylee, would KC be responsible? There is some question about the traffic ticket ZG and also a MySpace account which was set up that might support a defense claim of MPD.
Would this even go to trial or would KC be mentally unfit to stand trial? Would a person be held responsible for a crime commited by an alternate personality?
Again, I am not saying I believe this. Just wondering about the legalities of such a situation.

 

[Themis]

Here's a "way out there" question. Let me begin with the disclaimer that I in no way think this is the truth about KC, but I was wondering about it as a defense.

Multiple personality Disorder is quite rare, but it does exist. If the defense found an expert who concluded that ZFG was one of KC's "alternate personalities" and that ZFG did, in fact, kill Caylee, would KC be responsible? There is some question about the traffic ticket ZG and also a MySpace account which was set up that might support a defense claim of MPD.
Would this even go to trial or would KC be mentally unfit to stand trial? Would a person be held responsible for a crime commited by an alternate personality?
Again, I am not saying I believe this. Just wondering about the legalities of such a situation.

I think at that point, all of the key players would be dealing with an insanity defense.

 

[Marina2]

A little more on "Lesser Included Offenses." The following is language from a Florida Supreme Court opinion, Williams v. Florida May 2007, SC06-594.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/floridastatecases/5_2007/sc06-594.pdf

"The Court recently explained the distinction between necessary and permissive lesser included offenses:​

Lesser included offenses fall into two categories: necessary and permissive. Necessarily lesser included offenses are those offenses in which the statutory elements of the lesser included offense are always subsumed within those of the charged offense. State v. Paul, 934 So. 2d 1167, 1176 (Fla. 2006). A permissive lesser included offense exists when "the two offenses appear to be separate [on the face of the statutes], but the facts alleged in the accusatory pleadings are such that the lesser [included] offense cannot help but be perpetrated once the greater offense has been." State v. Weller, 590 So. 2d 923, 925 n.2 (Fla. 1991).​

Sanders v. State, 944 So. 2d 203, 206 (Fla. 2006) (alteration in original)."

"An instruction on a permissive lesser included offense is appropriate only if the allegations of the greater offense contain all the elements of the lesser offense​

and the evidence at trial would support a verdict on the lesser offense. See Welsh, 850 So. 2d at 470. If an offense meets the criteria for an instruction and verdict choice as either a necessarily or permissive lesser included offense, the State may insist on its inclusion, even over defense objection. See Johnson v. State, 601 So. 2d 219, 220 (Fla. 1992) (holding that State has right to instruction on permissive lesser included offense over defense objection); Gallo v. State, 491 So. 2d 541, 543 (Fla. 1986) (holding that if State declines to consent to defense waiver of instruction on necessarily lesser included offense, waiver is ineffectual and instruction must be given), receded from on other grounds by Gould v. State, 577 So. 2d 1302, 1305 (Fla. 1991)." (Ibid.)

Basically, what this says is Florida does use LIOs, the statute doesn't necessarily contain all of the LIOs of a particular charge, the test is whether the elements for the LIO are also within the list of elements for the greater charge and the defense can't waive the prosecution's right to have the jury instructed on an LIO.

Text bolded by me. Thank you for the laymans' explanation. Following this, I take it that the "aggravated manslaughter" charge had to be included in the indictment because it isn't a LIO of the murder 1 charge.(because culpable negligence is not an element of murder 1?)
I'm very curious as to the prosecution strategy including this in the indictment. I don't see how they're going to give evidence that could go to murder 1 or aggravated manslaughter. Seems it would be one or the other.
Also, if Caylee died as a result of aggravated child abuse wouldn't this be considered felony murder? Is felony murder a LIO to murder 1 or not. It has an element not included in murder 1 so I would assume it isn't and would need to be included on the indictment if the prosecution has a theory that Caylee died as a result of aggravated child abuse. This makes me wonder if they have evidence of ongoing abuse that didn't result in Caylee's death.

 

[Themis]

Text bolded by me. Thank you for the laymans' explanation. Following this, I take it that the "aggravated manslaughter" charge had to be included in the indictment because it isn't a LIO of the murder 1 charge.(because culpable negligence is not an element of murder 1?)
I'm very curious as to the prosecution strategy including this in the indictment. I don't see how they're going to give evidence that could go to murder 1 or aggravated manslaughter. Seems it would be one or the other.
Also, if Caylee died as a result of aggravated child abuse wouldn't this be considered felony murder? Is felony murder a LIO to murder 1 or not. It has an element not included in murder 1 so I would assume it isn't and would need to be included on the indictment if the prosecution has a theory that Caylee died as a result of aggravated child abuse. This makes me wonder if they have evidence of ongoing abuse that didn't result in Caylee's death.

Hi Marina2

In order to decide which of the charges or types of homicide I think would be most supported by the evidence (known to WSers) I would have to do a trial brief. I would take each possible charge and list all of the required elements of that charge. Then, I would take each item of evidence and put a symbol of it by each element that it helped prove or disprove. Then I would list each and every source of that evidence (could have come from more than one witness) and put that down. Then I would try to make a call about how a jury would see the credibility of that witness or source of evidence (liar, junk science, etc). Once all that was done, the trial brief, or charts would tell me what charges were most likely to prevail. I never do this by my heart or opinion. I would do it by doing the homework. I haven't done that so I can't adequately answer your questions. There are some scenarios where aggravated manslaughter or felony murder could be a LIO of premeditated murder. It could happen. Still, the work must be done to determine exactly what charges are there. The court goes over the jury instructions right before instructing the jury and sending the jury to deliberate. This is the point where they all have the evidence that is admitted.

 

[LambChop]

Here's a "way out there" question. Let me begin with the disclaimer that I in no way think this is the truth about KC, but I was wondering about it as a defense.

Multiple personality Disorder is quite rare, but it does exist. If the defense found an expert who concluded that ZFG was one of KC's "alternate personalities" and that ZFG did, in fact, kill Caylee, would KC be responsible? There is some question about the traffic ticket ZG and also a MySpace account which was set up that might support a defense claim of MPD.
Would this even go to trial or would KC be mentally unfit to stand trial? Would a person be held responsible for a crime commited by an alternate personality?
Again, I am not saying I believe this. Just wondering about the legalities of such a situation.

LOL - Just thinking. If KC were able to convince an expert she had this disorder KC would still be found guilty because by KC's own admission the nanny really loved Caylee, bought her clothes, shoes, toys, carseat, took Caylee to the beach, etc.

 

[butwhatif?]

Here's a "way out there" question. Let me begin with the disclaimer that I in no way think this is the truth about KC, but I was wondering about it as a defense.

Multiple personality Disorder is quite rare, but it does exist. If the defense found an expert who concluded that ZFG was one of KC's "alternate personalities" and that ZFG did, in fact, kill Caylee, would KC be responsible? There is some question about the traffic ticket ZG and also a MySpace account which was set up that might support a defense claim of MPD.
Would this even go to trial or would KC be mentally unfit to stand trial? Would a person be held responsible for a crime commited by an alternate personality?
Again, I am not saying I believe this. Just wondering about the legalities of such a situation.

Another 'out there' defense theory came to mind last night when I was going over a bunch of transcripts.
We've seen murder trials where the defense is ' violent video games made me do it", and its a variation of this.....

One common theme in most interviews is that KC was addicted to FB and MS, that she lived (and lied) by it.
We all know that alot of folks twist the truth online, but for KC it was the perfect fantasy world.

Could the defense claim that her online fantasy life carried over into real life?

That she was so stuck in webland, where truth and lies, fantasy and reality are intertwined, that she could no longer distinguish between what was real, and what was not?
(ie: that Caylees death was not real to her, and thats why she didnt alert anybody)

Has a defense like this ever been used in a murder trial? If so, is it an actual defense, or does it go to mitigating circumstances?

Just want to clarify, that I don't think the internet made her do it, but just looking at possible defenses that they may attempt. (cause I doubt that any reasonable defense will be used).

 

[Jolynna]

I am murky on how attorney-client privilege is protected when independent contractors like Padilla, Tracy & Rob D. are thrown into the mix.

Were KC and her family free to directly talk to KC's subcontracted bodyguards without fear of it coming back to bite them?

The female bounty hunter was interviewed months ago by LE. Padilla has been on national television for over a year sharing his inside scoop including conversations.

 

[essies]

I am murky on how attorney-client privilege is protected when independent contractors like Padilla, Tracy & Rob D. are thrown into the mix.

Were KC and her family free to directly talk to KC's subcontracted bodyguards without fear of it coming back to bite them?

The female bounty hunter was interviewed months ago by LE. Padilla has been on national television for over a year sharing his inside scoop including conversations.

ITA If Baez didn't want Padilla talking why didn't he try to shut him up months ago. Ya can't unring the bell!! What Rob and the FBH have to say must be pretty interesting! IMO:waitasec:

 

[Searchfortruth]

I am murky on how attorney-client privilege is protected when independent contractors like Padilla, Tracy & Rob D. are thrown into the mix.

Were KC and her family free to directly talk to KC's subcontracted bodyguards without fear of it coming back to bite them?

The female bounty hunter was interviewed months ago by LE. Padilla has been on national television for over a year sharing his inside scoop including conversations.

I don't understand this either and would like more information.

Does anyone remember when Leonard P was going to revoke the bond (after Casey was arrested on the check fraud) ? Jose came out and spoke to the media with Leonard there beside him, and said that Leonard was not going to the break their "agreement". I thought that he might have been talking about a written agreement, as in a contract, but don't know for sure. Just throwing it out there...

 

[essies]

I don't understand this either and would like more information.

Does anyone remember when Leonard P was going to revoke the bond (after Casey was arrested on the check fraud) ? Jose came out and spoke to the media with Leonard there beside him, and said that Leonard was not going to the break their "agreement". I thought that he might have been talking about a written agreement, as in a contract, but don't know for sure. Just throwing it out there...

You know this could get very interesting! Suppose LP says that any agreement with JB and KC was null and void since she didn't live up to her end of the agreement! KC wanted out supposedly to help look for Caylee and LP was there to help locate her also. Instead KC baked brownies and made pasta. She (KC) ordered LP out of the house when he wanted some real info to go on to search for Caylee and KC kept wanting to spin the ZFG story.
So, basically, KC fired LP-right? KC kept Rob and Tracey more as bodyguards than bountyhunters. I don't know-we'll have to see the agreement. And, is there a difference between an agreement and a contract?:waitasec:

 

[Jolynna]

ITA If Baez didn't want Padilla talking why didn't he try to shut him up months ago. Ya can't unring the bell!! What Rob and the FBH have to say must be pretty interesting! IMO:waitasec:

Maybe he hadn't figured out how to write the motion?

 

[DotsEyes]

Padilla was the bondsman, he was not hired by anyone and he is not bound by any privilege.

KC's parents are not covered by the attorney/client privilege between JB and KC. They are not his clients.

The privilege is only between attorney (and his staff) and client. No one else can claim the privilege.

Staff means secretaries, partners, associates, paralegals in the same firm.

 

[Searchfortruth]

You know this could get very interesting! Suppose LP says that any agreement with JB and KC was null and void since she didn't live up to her end of the agreement! KC wanted out supposedly to help look for Caylee and LP was there to help locate her also. Instead KC baked brownies and made pasta. She (KC) ordered LP out of the house when he wanted some real info to go on to search for Caylee and KC kept wanting to spin the ZFG story.
So, basically, KC fired LP-right? KC kept Rob and Tracey more as bodyguards than bountyhunters. I don't know-we'll have to see the agreement. And, is there a difference between an agreement and a contract?:waitasec:

I really think there was a signed contract of some sort based on the way Jose said "he's not going to break our agreement". I think the agreement was more about the bond though, because obviously LP's been talking about things that happened when he was around Casey and the family. Now the female that was with Casey...she must have signed a contract...I can't wait to hear what she has to say !!!! I believe that these interviews are going to be released soon, if the Judge OK's the release that is !

 

[MissJames]

I am murky on how attorney-client privilege is protected when independent contractors like Padilla, Tracy & Rob D. are thrown into the mix.

Were KC and her family free to directly talk to KC's subcontracted bodyguards without fear of it coming back to bite them?

The female bounty hunter was interviewed months ago by LE. Padilla has been on national television for over a year sharing his inside scoop including conversations.

I thought that when LE went out to interview the female bountyhunter she got a lawyer and said she couldn't talk.That led me to believe they had a confidentiality agreement,or Jose' was claiming privilige.I would think that talking to LE about a crime would trump a confidentiality contract.
Maybe Jose' wrote up a contract technically hiring them so anything they heard or saw would be privilidged.I just can't see LP going along with that.
And KC broke the spirit of any agreement by not helping to find Caylee.
Surely the judge will throw this one out.

 

[Jolynna]

Padilla was the bondsman, he was not hired by anyone and he is not bound by any privilege.

KC's parents are not covered by the attorney/client privilege between JB and KC. They are not his clients.

The privilege is only between attorney (and his staff) and client. No one else can claim the privilege.

Staff means secretaries, partners, associates, paralegals in the same firm.

Private eyes who are subcontracted to dig up case information for attorneys are covered by work privilege.

I'm not sure what Baez had the bounty hunters sign but I think I remember hearing he had them sign something. What happens to attorney-client privilege when subcontractors don't keep quiet?

 

[Searchfortruth]

This from the Orlando Sentinel...BBM.

Padilla bonded Anthony out of jail and signed a privacy agreement with Baez preventing him from taping Anthony's statements. The agreement also emphasizes Padilla does not represent Baez's law firm, according to court documents.

Defense attorneys argue attorney-client privilege prevents Padilla from giving testimony.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...k-casey-anthony-update-071609,0,7182649.story

 

[SoSueMe]

Another 'out there' defense theory came to mind last night when I was going over a bunch of transcripts.
We've seen murder trials where the defense is ' violent video games made me do it", and its a variation of this.....

One common theme in most interviews is that KC was addicted to FB and MS, that she lived (and lied) by it.
We all know that alot of folks twist the truth online, but for KC it was the perfect fantasy world.

Could the defense claim that her online fantasy life carried over into real life?

That she was so stuck in webland, where truth and lies, fantasy and reality are intertwined, that she could no longer distinguish between what was real, and what was not?
(ie: that Caylees death was not real to her, and thats why she didnt alert anybody)

Has a defense like this ever been used in a murder trial? If so, is it an actual defense, or does it go to mitigating circumstances?

Just want to clarify, that I don't think the internet made her do it, but just looking at possible defenses that they may attempt. (cause I doubt that any reasonable defense will be used).

What in her fantasy life told her to kill her child? I don't see anything that she researched on the Internet that would qualify as something that told her or made her kill Caylee. The murder was real enough to her that she had to hide it.

I just don't see anything that points to this type of loss with reality. I see a lot of self-absorbed, deceitful and immature cr@ppola.

 

[faefrost]

This from the Orlando Sentinel...BBM.

Padilla bonded Anthony out of jail and signed a privacy agreement with Baez preventing him from taping Anthony's statements. The agreement also emphasizes Padilla does not represent Baez's law firm, according to court documents.

Defense attorneys argue attorney-client privilege prevents Padilla from giving testimony.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...k-casey-anthony-update-071609,0,7182649.story

Privacy agreements and confidentiality agreements are not the same thing as employment contracts, work product and attorney client privelege.

Isn't it true that privacy agreements cannot be used to shield testimony in a criminal matter? If Baez did not pay LP (produce the cancelled check please), and LP did not generate any work product, then privelege should not exist.

 

[QB.]

Not sure if this has already been posted but according to the the defense attorney interviewed at WESH, the signed privacy agreement is worthless. He says that Florida does not allow bondsmen and attorneys to enter into these types of confidentiality arrangements. He also says JB should have advised his client to not say anything to anyone.
http://www.wesh.com/news/20079093/detail.html

 

[Tuba]

Absolutely true, QB. Leonard is an independent contractor and an att'y and in no wise an agent of The Firm, as Jose B. alleges. Not even an implied agent. And of course, the defendant did violate her bail. She was arrested. Bond withdrawn for cause~the violation, not her lack of cooperation in locating her daughter. Her refusal to help did remove the scales from Leonard's eyes. His desire to help in that search and the bonding in behalf of the mission was betrayed, no matter what your opinion of the bounty hunter. Personally, I checked and his heart's in the right place.