PTL (Peach Tree Landing)

[eileenhawkeye]

I think the fact that we can name about 4 cases over a five-year period shows just how rare dismemberment is. Nobody is denying that it happens, just that it is extremely uncommon.

 

[4evernbluejeans]

I think that the M's had time, darkness, a garage with tools that may have included bags, saws, bleach, shovels and a lot more....SM did repairs and maintenance on food industry kitchens. They also had two sets of hands and two trucks. SM was supposedly a "chef" chefs have skills with knives, TM considered HE trash- so the possibility that they could have dismembered HE-coupled with LE's projection of little confidence in finding HE...lead my mind to the fact that this could have happened. Sorry for run on sentences!

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think the fact that we can name about 4 cases over a five-year period shows just how rare dismemberment is. Nobody is denying that it happens, just that it is extremely uncommon.

I would venture to say dismemberment is far more common that we know. They just aren't popular stories. Here are a handful from the past few years (and I wasn't looking too hard):

Jose Reyes
Ramsay Scrivo
Stephen Frank Delicino-same killer as Robert Harry Haney
Robert Harry Haney-same killer as Stephen Frank Delicino
Terrence Rankin and Eric Glover-strangled and attempted dismemberment.
Carina Saunders
Daniel Delfin
Hanny Tawadros and Amgad Konds-same killer

Not yet identified, but dismemberment involved
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/michigan-mom-arrested-son-murder-article-1.1599225

 

[CHERIE.T]

I think the fact that we can name about 4 cases over a five-year period shows just how rare dismemberment is. Nobody is denying that it happens, just that it is extremely uncommon.

It's a also time consuming. Imo the killers got rid of the body fairly quickly.

 

[margarita25]

I would venture to say dismemberment is far more common that we know. They just aren't popular stories. Here are a handful from the past few years (and I wasn't looking too hard):

Jose Reyes
Ramsay Scrivo
Stephen Frank Delicino-same killer as Robert Harry Haney
Robert Harry Haney-same killer as Stephen Frank Delicino
Terrence Rankin and Eric Glover-strangled and attempted dismemberment.
Carina Saunders
Daniel Delfin
Hanny Tawadros and Amgad Konds-same killer

Not yet identified, but dismemberment involved
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/michigan-mom-arrested-son-murder-article-1.1599225

Agreed, Jessica Ridgeway, Jaren Lockhart, Angie Pipkin, the suitcase case in Canada...the list goes on and on...jmo

 

[stillwatersc]

I don't think Heather was dismembered, but don't forget Zahra Baker.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

The lists people are posting of victims who were dismembered are just showing me how rare it is. When the lists includes victims where the killer attempted to dismember them, that just confirms what I was saying about it being a tedious process. There are 14,000 murders a year and I think there have been about 10 names posted, and not all from the same year. We know that stranger abductions are rare, but I could name quite a few names off the top of my head where it has happened. It is still rare. So I am not saying that victims aren't dismembered, just that it is not common. And how many of the killers posted above were law-abiding for 40 years? What were the circumstances? Did people talk about how deranged and weird the killers were?

Also, all the victims above were dismembered, but were still found. They were not cut up into tiny little pieces. Perhaps someone who dismembers a victim wants them to be found, so people can see their work. Also, would the Moorers keep all the equipment used to dismember Heather? If they did, wouldn't there be evidence on them, and then wouldn't the family have a memorial service?

 

[TTF14]

Blood (unless it is a large amount) could just mean a struggle to get into a car. I thought about a bullet, but LE says they don't how Heather was killed. ?

Just because they said that, doesn't make it true. They could be holding that back as something "only the killer would know."

 

[Motherof5]

One case = trend?

I don't see any proof that cutting a victim into pieces is a trend that will continue to grow. Most killers want to get rid of their victim quickly, and chopping up a victim is very tedious.

Removing head and hands to make identification difficult takes very little effort and can be done in a matter of minutes. Secluded area and a sharp axe. It's been done in other cases.

 

[Ghostwheel]

The lists people are posting of victims who were dismembered are just showing me how rare it is. When the lists includes victims where the killer attempted to dismember them, that just confirms what I was saying about it being a tedious process. There are 14,000 murders a year and I think there have been about 10 names posted, and not all from the same year. We know that stranger abductions are rare, but I could name quite a few names off the top of my head where it has happened. It is still rare. So I am not saying that victims aren't dismembered, just that it is not common. And how many of the killers posted above were law-abiding for 40 years? What were the circumstances? Did people talk about how deranged and weird the killers were?

Also, all the victims above were dismembered, but were still found. They were not cut up into tiny little pieces. Perhaps someone who dismembers a victim wants them to be found, so people can see their work. Also, would the Moorers keep all the equipment used to dismember Heather? If they did, wouldn't there be evidence on them, and then wouldn't the family have a memorial service?

There are many more than 10 people. I have neither the time nor inclination to post them all. It isn't all that rare. Not even MOO. Fact if a person bothers to go out and search the internet.

 

[jillycat]

The lists people are posting of victims who were dismembered are just showing me how rare it is. When the lists includes victims where the killer attempted to dismember them, that just confirms what I was saying about it being a tedious process. There are 14,000 murders a year and I think there have been about 10 names posted, and not all from the same year. We know that stranger abductions are rare, but I could name quite a few names off the top of my head where it has happened. It is still rare. So I am not saying that victims aren't dismembered, just that it is not common. And how many of the killers posted above were law-abiding for 40 years? What were the circumstances? Did people talk about how deranged and weird the killers were?

Also, all the victims above were dismembered, but were still found. They were not cut up into tiny little pieces. Perhaps someone who dismembers a victim wants them to be found, so people can see their work. Also, would the Moorers keep all the equipment used to dismember Heather? If they did, wouldn't there be evidence on them, and then wouldn't the family have a memorial service?

I don't see the link-up between evidence on equipment and a memorial.

I think the family has known since the beginning that she was dead. Certainly with the arrests and progression of the case, it's clear she's gone forever. I would imagine that the Elvis family has been through its paces at so many levels that aren't visible to the rest of us, and they've been memorializing Heather all along, in various ways.

They have a trial to get through and Heather's body is still missing. It may never be recovered and they may never know what really happened. They may not choose to have a 'formal' or 'final' memorial at this stage, even if the police have blood or other physical evidence of a killing. There is still so much undone and unresolved.

Religious beliefs, personal worldview, how one feels about death, and in this case, how a death by murder affects the survivors, all have impact on how and when goodbyes are said. I'm sure as people of faith, the family hopes for a burial and the opportunity to respectfully lay Heather to rest. That's so deeply personal and not guided by forensics.

For me personally, the blood of my loved one on someone's hacksaw or rusty axe would not connect with a memorial. JMO

 

[NFYIAMY]

I don't see the link-up between evidence on equipment and a memorial.

I think the family has known since the beginning that she was dead. Certainly with the arrests and progression of the case, it's clear she's gone forever. I would imagine that the Elvis family has been through its paces at so many levels that aren't visible to the rest of us, and they've been memorializing Heather all along, in various ways.

They have a trial to get through and Heather's body is still missing. It may never be recovered and they may never know what really happened. They may not choose to have a 'formal' or 'final' memorial at this stage, even if the police have blood or other physical evidence of a killing. There is still so much undone and unresolved.

Religious beliefs, personal worldview, how one feels about death, and in this case, how a death by murder affects the survivors, all have impact on how and when goodbyes are said. I'm sure as people of faith, the family hopes for a burial and the opportunity to respectfully lay Heather to rest. That's so deeply personal and not guided by forensics.

For me personally, the blood of my loved one on someone's hacksaw or rusty axe would not connect with a memorial. JMO

I'm not so sure I believe they thought Heather was dead from the start. There were several candlelight vigils held - I was there for them so I saw 'visibly' the process they were going through - that we were all, one some level, going through. It wasn't until about the latter part of March that those stopped. I think something happened then - and I think it was something more than the arrests. Just MOO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I guess it is a matter of opinion whether dismemberment is rare or not, easy to do or not. But when I see articles like this, I agree with what they are saying. There could be 500 victims dismembered a year, that represents 3.5% of total murder victims. Is that common or not? 500 is a lot of people (plenty of articles will show up on Google), but 3.5% is a small percentage.

Safarik and his business partner, retired FBI agent Robert Ressler, are the founders of Forensic Behavioral Services International, a 16-year-old company that provides expert opinion and analysis to law enforcement agencies, attorneys, Fortune 500 companies and foreign entities.

Based on his vast knowledge of criminal behavior, Safarik said the victim's dismemberment likely took place at another location.

"It takes a lot of work to dismember someone," he said. "They would need to do it where they could have plenty of time and privacy to complete the job."

Despite similar crimes portrayed on TV or in the movies, dismemberment is not a common practice among killers, explained the veteran investigator.

"Dismemberment is rare. It only occurs in an exceptionally small number of cases," Safarik said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...vered-dismemberment-california_n_1217132.html

In the 2,600 serial killers he has studied since 2001, only 5 percent fall into the category of dismembering bodies, including such famous serial killers as Ed Gein, whose crimes helped inspire Thomas Harris’ book and subsequent film, “The Silence of the Lambs.”

http://www.hattiesburgamerican.com/...-cry-from-hollywoods-hannibal-lecter/7696293/

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm not so sure I believe they thought Heather was dead from the start. There were several candlelight vigils held - I was there for them so I saw 'visibly' the process they were going through - that we were all, one some level, going through. It wasn't until about the latter part of March that those stopped. I think something happened then - and I think it was something more than the arrests. Just MOO.

Why would they use years-old and unclear pictures if they thought Heather was still alive? People were never encouraged to look for an alive Heather. How would they expect anyone to sight their daughter if there was no accurate picture of her out there? One common picture shown of Heather (with her dog) doesn't even show her face. So many pictures chosen looked liked ones for a magazine cover, rather than a missing poster. This will always be one of the weirdest aspects of the case.

The pictures shown are either:
-old
-in Tilted Kilt uniform (why...)
-not clear (covering part of face, head up/down, in black/white or sepia, etc)

As for the candlelight vigils stopping....are there cases where they went on for months? Perhaps, it is normal for them to stop after a certain time, and it doesn't mean the family thought the victim was alive, but now thinks they are dead. They could still have a vigil for Heather even if they know she is not alive, as it could represent still having to find her and get justice.

 

[jillycat]

I'm not so sure I believe they thought Heather was dead from the start. There were several candlelight vigils held - I was there for them so I saw 'visibly' the process they were going through - that we were all, one some level, going through. It wasn't until about the latter part of March that those stopped. I think something happened then - and I think it was something more than the arrests. Just MOO.

I'm just going by the fact that Heather went missing on 12/18 of last year, and LE's remark to the effect that they were honest with the family from the beginning.

I think the family knew before three months passed that she was not coming home.

My main point was that the absence of a memorial doesn't equal the absence of physical evidence of murder. Nor do murder charges equal blood or hair evidence.

We can't tell from family behavior what the police found. JMO

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I think the family thought Heather was dead from the beginning. They still needed to generate interest in the case, though. I think they started out by using pictures of Heather where she was in her TK uniform, sort of modeling pictures, because it is always said that more attractive victims get attention, that perhaps if modelesque pictures are shown, more likely to get coverage. However, I remember reading articles in the beginning, where people said that her working at TK probably led to her murder, sort of shrugging it off, and others where they criticized the picture used as not being appropriate to represent a missing person. I think the family saw this, and decided to go in the opposite direction, and use pictures of Heather where she looks 16.

Terry wrote an article for xojane 1 month after Heather went missing. The demographics for that website are young girls and women in their teens and 20's. The case was getting out to people who were not familiar with it. Yet the pictures used of Heather were very, very old, or not clear. The pictures chosen make no sense if they thought Heather was alive.

 

[TedMac]

Why would they use years-old and unclear pictures if they thought Heather was still alive? People were never encouraged to look for an alive Heather. How would they expect anyone to sight their daughter if there was no accurate picture of her out there? One common picture shown of Heather (with her dog) doesn't even show her face. So many pictures chosen looked liked ones for a magazine cover, rather than a missing poster. This will always be one of the weirdest aspects of the case.

The pictures shown are either:
-old
-in Tilted Kilt uniform (why...)
-not clear (covering part of face, head up/down, in black/white or sepia, etc)

As for the candlelight vigils stopping....are there cases where they went on for months? Perhaps, it is normal for them to stop after a certain time, and it doesn't mean the family thought the victim was alive, but now thinks they are dead. They could still have a vigil for Heather even if they know she is not alive, as it could represent still having to find her and get justice.

I'm not sure when the Elvis family realized that Heather was deceased. I think that LE probably told them early on in the investigation that the chances of her being alive were very small. Still I'm sure they held out hope which is what any family would do under the same circumstances. I believe that Hoppy is onto something about March. Just a guess, but it may have been when the search warrants were executed at the Moorer's home and there was no sign of Heather. I feel certain that that any hope of her being alive and held against her will was eliminated at that point. If she wasn't there, then where was she?

Yes, there are some older pictures of Heather on the posters. There are also
some recent ones. You mentioned the TK photo. She had only worked there a few months, so that was recent. The one of her holding the family dog was (according to Terry) taken not long before she disappeared. Also, the picture of her with SS was taken the night before/morning of she died.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm not sure when the Elvis family realized that Heather was deceased. I think that LE probably told them early on in the investigation that the chances of her being alive were very small. Still I'm sure they held out hope which is what any family would do under the same circumstances. I believe that Hoppy is onto something about March. Just a guess, but it may have been when the search warrants were executed at the Moorer's home and there was no sign of Heather. I feel certain that that any hope of her being alive and held against her will was eliminated at that point. If she wasn't there, then where was she?

Yes, there are some older pictures of Heather on the posters. There are also
some recent ones. You mentioned the TK photo. She had only worked there a few months, so that was recent. The one of her holding the family dog was (according to Terry) taken not long before she disappeared. Also, the picture of her with SS was taken the night before/morning of she died.

The picture of her holding the dog does not show Heather's face clearly. Neither does the picture in the car. In that picture, it looks like Heather gained some weight, so the TK pictures might not even be accurate. So the pictures may be recent, but none will help in finding an alive Heather.

 

[Motherof5]

There are a couple of things that I'm conflicted about.

LE says that the relationship between Heather and SM ended in October but on September 3rd, Heather tweeted that there was nothing for her in Myrtle Beach and she needed to go somewhere new. Maybe it's just me but that sounds like she was losing interest at the beginning of September? That, as well as the fact that she went on a date that night,she didn't run out to meet SM after the pay phone call,she called BW and was upset after hearing from SM instead of being happy that he"wants to be with her" and then waited almost an hour to call SM back...all of these things make me wonder just how much of a hold SM still had on her? Also,LE says that Heather drove herself to PTL and their reasons for thinking this are:

Horry County Police Lt. Chip Squires: "Everything indicates that she drove [to Peachtree Landing. We do not have anything that indicates she did not drive there."

Senior Horry County Prosecutor Donna Elder: "Sidney and Heather did care about each other. Then Tammy found out about it… This information [that Heather was at home after her date] is based on GPS from her phone… We know [Heather drove to Peachtree Landing] because of the GPS coordinates from her phone… We ran all registered vehicles fitting the description the MAIT team gave us [from security videos on Mill Pond Road] and there were 82 that matched… [The Moorer children] have been extremely coached and even then their stories conflict… When police on patrol checked the landing, they found Heather’s car locked. There was no crime scene there and no personal belongings. Police didn’t think anything was wrong until Heather was reported missing… We have had divers all around the area and even worked with Coastal Carolina University to get an ultrasound of the river all the way down to Winyah Bay.”

This sounds to me like LE is assuming that Heather drove herself to PTL because they don't have any proof(video) that she didn't. They say that they know this from the GPS on her phone. Anyone can drive around with her phone. I keep telling myself that they must have video but why not present it at the hearing? I know that they didn't have to but if they're going to bring it up at the hearing,why not say that they know this because they have video rather than just her phone's GPS? I don't know...that just really bothers me. I think that SM tried to lure her out and Heather refused. She has also tweeted that she hates it when people are upset with her and that it makes her feel awful. Maybe she turned him down when he called and then she feels bad and calls BW about it. It could be that she called him back at the payphone because she felt bad about turning him down and not because she wanted to meet with him or resume the relationship.

I'm probably reaching here but maybe after SM's failed attempt to lure Heather out,he and TM go home and regroup. TM doesn't strike me as the type of person who will just give up after one attempt. I think she would go to plan B and I think she knew exactly where Heather moved to. She text Heather saying..." You can tell me where you are right now or I will find out another way... that way wont have a great turn out for you... I am giving you one last chance to answer before we meet in person.. only one." I believe that TM meant that. So after SM fails to lure Heather out,TM sends him over in the red truck. I have nothing at all to back that up just a thoery. There is a reason why LE took the black AND the red trucks. SM parks down the road from Heather's place and walks over. It has never made sense to me that Heather would call SM's cell phone after getting the crazy texts from TM and after he called from a pay phone. It would seem that he doesn't have his phone and doubt that she wanted to risk further threats from TM so why call his cell? I think the 3:17 call may have been SM calling TM to let her know that he has Heather and he's on his way to PTL. SM shows up at Heather's place around 3:00. She lets him in because she doesn't hate him and why would she think that she was going to be killed? Before she has time to scream,run,try to defend herself,he knocks her out. He calls TM from Heather's phone and then puts Heather in her car and drives to PTL. He gets there before TM and panics. He calls over and over until he sees the lights from the truck. TM rolls up...SM gives the phone to TM and puts Heather in the truck while TM takes care of Heather's phone and they are outta there. I just feel like her car was dumped at PTL and not parked there by Heather. Ok...so there are a million holes in that theory but those are my thoughts today. Clearly I've had a little coffee.

 

[justonedrin]

those are all the unknown kinda things about this case and can drive you crazy if you let it. when did relationship end, were they in love or just lust, did SM stalk HE on her date, why SM called that night from a payphone, why she called back an hour later, why she went to PTL, how she got there. all unknowns. and no way at all to know since HE is not here to tell us and SM and TM are not talking and LE and everyone else is under gag order. So all we can do is speculate about the whys the hows and the whens. I dont spend a lot of time on those aspects of the crime because its pretty much futile. the trial will attempt to answer all those questions.

but LE was investigating this case from Dec 20 to Feb 18. and got search warrants that were executed on Feb 21.
here is where I am putting my faith right now:
Horry County Police convinced the prosecuting atty's office, who used their evidence to convince a judge and grand jury to believe that HE is deceased and that SM AND TM did it. Not just one, but both. which means they have evidence that BOTH participated equally. you cant just throw that up in the wind and hope it flies. It must be detailed in every way to convince these people. and it cant be just a theory. there has to be some proof. which leads me to my next conclusion:
LE found enough evidence BEFORE the black truck was searched to get a warrant to search the PROPERTY. the black truck was taken at the time of the search and had not yet been analyzed. and at that point all they pretty much had was texts, phone call logs, interviews with family and friends, HE computer which may have had pictures, emails, etc etc. So they had something that allowed them to present probable cause to search the property to look for evidence that the M's murdered HE. otherwise anything they found may not be allowed to be used in the trial. time will tell. but I have to wonder about all those other " multiple videos throughout the Socastee area" that several LE officers have alluded to. Socastee is not very big at all. I live in the Socastee area. Just a couple miles from the M's. It is a small community not even a town.
TE house, and PTL are both in Socastee just about 3-5 miles apart. And Moorer home is in or right outside of that area considered to be Socastee. HE moved up to MB proper on Dec 4 or so. But the main events/locations are in Socastee. and LE says they have video of that area. Most likely much more than just the 2 cameras on Mill Pond Road.

but then again speculation about the whys hows and whens are all we can do until the gag order is lifted.