Quesions for RDI about Burke's role

  • #21
Nope, because it was done in the basement..and he was asleep. He didn't witness anything all night with the so called "intruder", either. So what's the difference? Burke had absolutely nothing to do with this...he was sleeping. I do not believe that he was involved at all. He may have heard something...and may now know of his parents involvement (IMO)....but, he wasn't involved.

In the IDI all R's were asleep so no problem in this respect.

In RDI, JB and PR were awake, but was JR also awake? BR?

While Burke may have slept through it all (what of the JB scream that RDI put stock in?) the R's would have still recon with the *possibility* that BR might have realized their guilt, and then blabbered his mouth. While they were staging they also had to deal with the possibility of BR waking up and seeing this.

Do you think PR would have done an OJ Simpson if like Ron Goldman BR happened to see PR cleaning up JB?
 
  • #22
Hello,
I have posted on other true-crime (Jeffrey MacDonald, Zodiac killer, Samuel Shapperd, Smiley Faced Killers, sadly with no response here :boohoo:)

Have you heard of Berry Sheck and the Innocence project? He and I have a lot of respect for DNA evidence. If we dismiss DNA evidence in this case as contamination or transfer, how many death row murderers were wrongly acquitted and how many innocents wrongly imprisoned based on trace DNA evidence?

What-if the DNA matched 100% to John Karr?

What-if, they find matching DNA to a rapist, cat burglar, forger, pedophile who has no alibili for Dec 1996, and who could be located based on credit cards and phone record to Boulder?

BUT TOUCH DNA..is too sensitive. And did you read my thread about the lady that was wrongly charged for killing many people...but, as it turned out, she was innocent. She worked in the factory that made the cotton swabs that is used to collect DNA!!! And there are probably ALOT of innocent people on death row...wrongly convicted because of contaminated DNA. The story about the lady, just proves that it CAN and DOES happen.
 
  • #23
In the IDI all R's were asleep so no problem in this respect.

In RDI, JB and PR were awake, but was JR also awake? BR?

While Burke may have slept through it all (what of the JB scream that RDI put stock in?) the R's would have still recon with the *possibility* that BR might have realized their guilt, and then blabbered his mouth. While they were staging they also had to deal with the possibility of BR waking up and seeing this.

Do you think PR would have done an OJ Simpson if like Ron Goldman BR happened to see PR cleaning up JB?

I believe that John was probably getting ready for bed, when the head blow happened. I also believe that the scream was Patsy's...not JB's. And why Burke didn't hear it...is beyond me. IMO..they didn't have a plan B, in case Burke had of woke up. I really don't know WHAT they would have done. IMO..THIS is the reason they took her into the bowels of the their house, for the staging. And no, I don't think that Patsy would have turned on Burke, if he had of seen what was going on. She would have just convinced him to keep his mouth shut. WHICH...IMO...could have happened anyway...J and P both, could have said..."don't tell anybody what you heard, because mommy and daddy could go to jail, and you wouldn't want THAT, would you?"
 
  • #24
That was intended as a secret message for SD -- in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor was tempting Luke with exactly those words, to come over to the Dark Side.

It was still funny, though.
 
  • #25
BUT TOUCH DNA..is too sensitive. And did you read my thread about the lady that was wrongly charged for killing many people...but, as it turned out, she was innocent. She worked in the factory that made the cotton swabs that is used to collect DNA!!! And there are probably ALOT of innocent people on death row...wrongly convicted because of contaminated DNA. The story about the lady, just proves that it CAN and DOES happen.

I've heard about it thanks. It could also mean in the future that defense attorneys have an argument to let go a lot of rapist, serial killers, axe murderers due to DNA testing "too sensitive"
 
  • #26
  • #27
I believe that John was probably getting ready for bed, when the head blow happened. I also believe that the scream was Patsy's...not JB's. And why Burke didn't hear it...is beyond me. IMO..they didn't have a plan B, in case Burke had of woke up. I really don't know WHAT they would have done. IMO..THIS is the reason they took her into the bowels of the their house, for the staging. And no, I don't think that Patsy would have turned on Burke, if he had of seen what was going on. She would have just convinced him to keep his mouth shut. WHICH...IMO...could have happened anyway...J and P both, could have said..."don't tell anybody what you heard, because mommy and daddy could go to jail, and you wouldn't want THAT, would you?"

I understand what you say intellectually, and the Jeffrey MacDonald case and OJ shows how unexpected some people can behave. I still find it somewhat hard to imagine that at the time PR strikes JB's head, she would probably have not understood the extent of her injuries, so instead of calling 911, she and JR decide to garrote her and stage her death. It's also surprising that JB didn't decide, against PR, to call ER, and then come up with a story of this being an accident.

Telling BR this still puts them at the risk that BR might inadvertently tell someone, such as a classmate what *really* happened that night. And allowing BR to live puts them at risk that BR might realize what really happened, or wasn't asleep and did know what was going on, and then exposing their story as fraudulent.

So at the time JB's head was struck, she was still alive and breathing, JB, PR, and possibly BR agree to keep quiet and then murder her and stage the crime scene. Then got really lucky with DNA. I suppose this is possible.

I think though it might be even more likely that PR did everything herself with BR and JR both sleeping.
 
  • #28
I understand what you say intellectually, and the Jeffrey MacDonald case and OJ shows how unexpected some people can behave. I still find it somewhat hard to imagine that at the time PR strikes JB's head, she would probably have not understood the extent of her injuries, so instead of calling 911, she and JR decide to garrote her and stage her death. It's also surprising that JB didn't decide, against PR, to call ER, and then come up with a story of this being an accident.

Telling BR this still puts them at the risk that BR might inadvertently tell someone, such as a classmate what *really* happened that night. And allowing BR to live puts them at risk that BR might realize what really happened, or wasn't asleep and did know what was going on, and then exposing their story as fraudulent.

So at the time JB's head was struck, she was still alive and breathing, JB, PR, and possibly BR agree to keep quiet and then murder her and stage the crime scene. Then got really lucky with DNA. I suppose this is possible.

I think though it might be even more likely that PR did everything herself with BR and JR both sleeping.

Well yeah...ST agrees with you. He believes that John didn't know what happened, until after reading the RN...he figured it out...that PR had written it.

I believe though, that JR and PR had no idea that JB was still alive...I believe that after the head blow (I believe that she was shoved, or fell onto something)...she was knocked unconsious, the Ramsey''s believed that she was dead, and the coverup began. Those ER docs are smart...they would have been able to tell the difference between abuse..and an accident. They see it everyday...some person walks in with a kid with a broken arm..and says..."he fell out of a chair"...the doctors can tell just by looking and x-raying...just exactly what happened. The Ramsey's were no fools....they couldn't risk calling an ambulance and having her taken to the ER. They couldn't take a chance on the docs there not believing their lies.
 
  • #29
I've heard about it thanks. It could also mean in the future that defense attorneys have an argument to let go a lot of rapist, serial killers, axe murderers due to DNA testing "too sensitive"

I do see what you are saying...BUT..touch dna is SO sensitive that it can't tell WHEN the DNA was left. IOW...it senses ALL DNA that is left..regardless if it was left two days ago, or two months ago. So, I sure HOPE that they don't use that for rapists, because alot of innocent people would be going to jail. I am quite sure that they use a different type of testing for those type of criminals. This is how sensitive Touch DNA is...if you shook my hand...and then I touched something... like a knife handle..(while picking it up to stab somebody) YOUR Touch DNA as well as mine, would be on the handle. SCARY HUH?
 
  • #30
I do see what you are saying...BUT..touch dna is SO sensitive that it can't tell WHEN the DNA was left. IOW...it senses ALL DNA that is left..regardless if it was left two days ago, or two months ago. So, I sure HOPE that they don't use that for rapists, because alot of innocent people would be going to jail. I am quite sure that they use a different type of testing for those type of criminals. This is how sensitive Touch DNA is...if you shook my hand...and then I touched something... like a knife handle..(while picking it up to stab somebody) YOUR Touch DNA as well as mine, would be on the handle. SCARY HUH?

let's shake hands then. :toast: See that guy over there with a red light saber, black mask, cape, and breathing respirator? -- he owes me some money :)
 
  • #31
Well yeah...ST agrees with you. He believes that John didn't know what happened, until after reading the RN...he figured it out...that PR had written it.

I believe though, that JR and PR had no idea that JB was still alive...I believe that after the head blow (I believe that she was shoved, or fell onto something)...she was knocked unconsious, the Ramsey''s believed that she was dead, and the coverup began. Those ER docs are smart...they would have been able to tell the difference between abuse..and an accident. They see it everyday...some person walks in with a kid with a broken arm..and says..."he fell out of a chair"...the doctors can tell just by looking and x-raying...just exactly what happened. The Ramsey's were no fools....they couldn't risk calling an ambulance and having her taken to the ER. They couldn't take a chance on the docs there not believing their lies.

PR alone would avoid many possibilities that PR+JR or PR+JR+BR would have.
Actually though I'm surprised PR didn't attempt a Jeffrey MacDonald on the entire family and claimed it was an intruder "acid is groovy"

What makes ST think JR figured it out after reading the RN? Did PR write the RN with the forethought JR would figure it out? And what about others also figuring it out, did she anticipate that?

At the moment JB was struck, was she bleeding, was there hair? Have they done a luminol test to find this blood in where it supposedly happened with the object it happened?
 
  • #32
Well yeah...ST agrees with you. He believes that John didn't know what happened, until after reading the RN...he figured it out...that PR had written it.

I believe though, that JR and PR had no idea that JB was still alive...I believe that after the head blow (I believe that she was shoved, or fell onto something)...she was knocked unconsious, the Ramsey''s believed that she was dead, and the coverup began. Those ER docs are smart...they would have been able to tell the difference between abuse..and an accident. They see it everyday...some person walks in with a kid with a broken arm..and says..."he fell out of a chair"...the doctors can tell just by looking and x-raying...just exactly what happened. The Ramsey's were no fools....they couldn't risk calling an ambulance and having her taken to the ER. They couldn't take a chance on the docs there not believing their lies.
This, to me, pretty well sums it up-

Speaking to anyone about your situation [the blow to JonBenet's head], such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded [strangled].
 
  • #33
In RDI, Burke (B) almost certainly had some knowledge of the crime in most RDI, although his exact role varies from RDI. Unless u think B was sleeping through whole ordeal. While R's were staging, B might have awaken and caught them red-handed.

Might. But I'm not sure he did. I don't really think about Burke that much, other than the fact that he and I have both lost our mothers.

One ? I have is whether B has ever suggested or hinted R's role in JB's death.

Um, in a way, I suppose he did. He brought up something in one of his interviews that the cops didn't know about: the Swiss Army Knife found at the scene. It was his. LHP had taken it away from him and hidden it in a basement cupboard. There were only three people in the world who knew where that knife was: LHP, Burke, and Patsy R.

Another ? is whether R's would have any reason to think B would stay quiet all these years. If R's thought B would ever let slip their role in JB's death, how did they decide against this possibility?

Well, that assumes he knew a substantial amount. Purely for the sake of argument, let's say you're correct. One of the things I heard was that the Rs had spent a lot of time and money brainwashing him. Taking him to psychiatrists, that kind of thing. Couldn't say how much of it is true. Moreover, as you often remind us (as if we needed it), fear is a very powerful weapon. One of the most powerful, in fact. Third, after a while, people start to believe their own lies. It goes back to Goebbels' "Big Lie" theory.

Why not do a Jeffrey MacDonald and silence B along w/JB, since B might let slip R's involvement?

Are you serious? And people say I'm on the dark side!

Or do you prefer the idea that B was involved in JB's death?

Oh, boy. That's a whole different kettle of fish, voynich. You might get some interesting replies!

(For those who don't know, it is alleged MacDonald killed his wife, then his children, so as to silence the witnesses -- he claims it was 4 hippies who said acid's groovy kill the pigs)

Among other things that people should know: MacDonald ALSO had no violence in his history and showed care towards the victims afterwards...

By allowing B to live, R's are risking having their perfect crime revealed by him, and I'm wondering how RDI account for this -- and why they didn't MacDonald him as well.

Easy: Children are easy to manipulate, for one thing. Secondly, who knows what he saw or didn't see. This assumes that he caught them red-handed as you say. I don't think he did. Even if he WAS awake when it happened, I think most kids would be trembling under the covers in fear trying to block it out. Indeed, blocking out the events could account for a lot of things.

They spent a considerable time staging the scene and they risked the possibility of B spilling the beans.

IF he saw anything.

And if they could kill JB and say "the killing will not be difficult, she will be beheaded" they could also kill B.

Kill JB BY ACCIDENT. And saying "the killing will not be difficult, she will be beheaded" is just talk, imo. Look, I don't know about anyone else, but here's my take on it: it was hard enough to lose JB. At least make an attempt to keep the rest of the family together.

Occam Razor implies that the reason R's did not worry B would expose their involvement of the crime and staging is that they did not, in fact, commit it.

Personally, I like DeeDee's answer.
 
  • #34
Here's one issue, after PR wacked JB, how did JR and BR respond?

Depends on who you ask.

Here's another issue: in this forum lurks a Dark Lord of the Sith. I have been fighting him.

Feel the power of the dark side.
 
  • #35
So PR and JR fractured JB's skull, garroted her, proceed to make a crime scene, wrote a RN note then staged it, damaging her vagina, and then calling 911, and BR doesn't witness anything all night?

Pardon my butting in, but there's evidence he was there for the 911 call. But even then, that's not proof he knew about anything for sure. Sure, he can make all kinds of inferences, but given JR's response "we're not speaking to you," I'd say they were doing what they could to keep him in the dark.

Oh the secret codes are mostly between Superdave and myself. We've been sparring over RDI v.s IDI in Star Wars/Star Trek.

Two to tango.

He's RDI. Everyone is RDI except Holdontoyourhat.

Not quite true. There are a few others.

I'm on the fence.

Mm, but seem to lean more one way. (That's my perception. If I'm wrong, just say so.) I am curious: HOTYH speaks as though all RDI were of a single collective mind. Obviously, you don't. You seem to be attacking (not the best term, I know) because of those variances. So RDI kind of gets it coming and going!
 
  • #36
BUT TOUCH DNA..is too sensitive. And did you read my thread about the lady that was wrongly charged for killing many people...but, as it turned out, she was innocent. She worked in the factory that made the cotton swabs that is used to collect DNA!!! And there are probably ALOT of innocent people on death row...wrongly convicted because of contaminated DNA. The story about the lady, just proves that it CAN and DOES happen.

I'd like to add my 2 cents to that.

voynich said:
Have you heard of Barry SCheck and the Innocence project?

That I have. Are you aware that he was consulted in this case and was one of the people who discounted the DNA? No BS.

He and I have a lot of respect for DNA evidence. If we dismiss DNA evidence in this case as contamination or transfer, how many death row murderers were wrongly acquitted and how many innocents wrongly imprisoned based on trace DNA evidence?

Unfortunately, voynich, that is one of the big problems with Project Innocence. Don't take my word for it, either. Wendy Murphy talks about this very thing in her book And Justice For Some which I highly recommend. Not all DNA is equal. That's what we're trying to say. It's not the end-all, be-all it's sometimes made out to be. A lot of times, it's not enough to just have DNA at a crime scene, but what KIND and how it sizes up with the other evidence. One of my favorite authors says it best, imo:

Only in the case of rape is DNA capable of excluding a suspect, and even then if the victim was not sexually active and there was only a single rapist. In virtually all other cases, DNA can only include suspects.

What-if the DNA matched 100% to John Karr?

What-if, they find matching DNA to a rapist, cat burglar, forger, pedophile who has no alibili for Dec 1996, and who could be located based on credit cards and phone record to Boulder?

Then that person would be in BIG trouble!

That was intended as a secret message for SD -- in Return of the Jedi, the Emperor was tempting Luke with exactly those words, to come over to the Dark Side.

It's funny you mention that, voynich. Every time I watch the R-ST face-off on Larry King Live, that scene is all I can think about! JR as the Emperor (with many of the same mannerisms!), the whole bit.

It could also mean in the future that defense attorneys have an argument to let go a lot of rapist, serial killers, axe murderers due to DNA testing "too sensitive"

If you ask me, it just means that modern investigators should not put all of their faith in technology and focus on making a more complete case. There is something to be said for the old techniques, after all.
 
  • #37
Pardon my butting in, but there's evidence he was there for the 911 call. But even then, that's not proof he knew about anything for sure. Sure, he can make all kinds of inferences, but given JR's response "we're not speaking to you," I'd say they were doing what they could to keep him in the dark.!

Since you are a PR+JR (as opposed to PR only) they took considerable efforts to hide their crime, stage it, hire expensive attorneys, and they did take measures to prevent BR from exposing their involvement?


Mm, but seem to lean more one way. (That's my perception. If I'm wrong, just say so.) I am curious: HOTYH speaks as though all RDI were of a single collective mind. Obviously, you don't. You seem to be attacking (not the best term, I know) because of those variances. So RDI kind of gets it coming and going!
Allow me to show you the nuances of the force. My mentor taught me everything I know about the force, even the nature of the dark side.
 
  • #38
Since you are a PR+JR (as opposed to PR only)

Depends on what day you catch me on. But as a rule.

they took considerable efforts to hide their crime, stage it, hire expensive attorneys, and they did take measures to prevent BR from exposing their involvement?

I would have to say yes. (What those measures WERE...)

Allow me to show you the nuances of the force. My mentor taught me everything I know about the force, even the nature of the dark side.

Ha! Living in the light, you have never seen the true depth of the darkness. Until now.

(On a similar note, you make a lot of points in this thread I would like to address, but since none of them are addressed to me, I'd rather wait until you tell me it's all right.)
 
  • #39
(On a similar note, you make a lot of points in this thread I would like to address, but since none of them are addressed to me, I'd rather wait until you tell me it's all right.)

Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place by my side.
 
  • #40
This, to me, pretty well sums it up-

Speaking to anyone about your situation [the blow to JonBenet's head], such as Police, F.B.I., etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded [strangled].


agreed, and if they can do this to JB, why risk BR spilling the beans?
 

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