Questions to make sense of IDI theory

[Slebby]

When did the intruder get to the R home? If they entered the home while the Rs were at dinner, then the intruder has to be someone who has no family or friends who would miss them on Christmas at dinner time. If they entered the home after the Rs has returned home, the intruder would still have to be someone who would not be missed if they were out in the middle of the night on Christmas.

How did they enter the home? If thru the basement window (I find this doubtful) did they just get lucky and find a broken window for access? Did they case the house previously? The Rs were reported as being lax about locking doors. What a stroke of luck for the intruder!

It has been said the Rs gave out a lot of house keys. So the intruder could be someone the Rs knew, who had a key, who could be out all evening and/or all Christmas night and not be missed by spouse or family.
So the intruder is in the house. What happens next? SA and murder or RN?

Does he first write a RN using PR’s notepad and pen, then put it away? Then go strike JBR on head, then haul to basement, SA, then leave? Or does he write the RN after, then leave? But if he has SAed her and killed her, why leave the RN at all?

Why was the RN so ridiculous, long, and full of falsehoods (for example, I don’t believe this was the work of a “foreign faction”) and overly dramatic (“she dies, she dies”) What was gained by making it 3 pages long, when a short message would suffice? What was the ransom note intended to point away from?

Why hit her on the head so hard it virtually killed her? Especially if SA is the motive? Or kidnap?

Was the SA a true SA, or were the elements of a SA staged to give the look of a SA? If staged, why?

When was the RN placed on the stairs, before or after killing JBR? Why place the note on the stairs, versus JBR room, or kitchen counter? Did the intruder know PR would rise and use those stairs, or did he just get lucky?

Was the intruder there to SA and kill JBR? Or to kidnap for ransom?

Why no ransom call?

How did the intruder travel there and leave? Car? On foot? If on foot, it’s unlikely kidnap was the plan. Either way, risky to be walking through or parking a strange car in an upscale community on Christmas night.

Take away an element - what if the intruder had not left the RN? What would be gained or lost? Instead of PR being immediately aware that something has happened to JBR, she or JR might have gone to her room to wake her eventually, and discovered she was missing.

What if the alleged SA had not happened or been staged to look like it had happened? IOW, what if JBR had only been fatally hit in the head? Or left in her bed? What would it mean for how the crime was perceived?

I would love to see other questions on the IDI. I also feel that it’s more helpful to look at all the questions, and not just one element, in order to explain an IDI. It can be easy to say “they got in with a house key” but that does not give a completely believable IDI theory, imo.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

All my opinions unless otherwise specified.

When did the intruder get to the R home? If they entered the home while the Rs were at dinner, then the intruder has to be someone who has no family or friends who would miss them on Christmas at dinner time.

Based on (among other things) the ransom note, I believe the killer to be a young man, ca 20. There is a college very close by. Whether he was a student or not I believe he lived apart from any family.

Furthermore:

That same evening, a Ramsey neighbor saw a person outside the Ramsey house. The person was described in a police report as a “tall thin blond male wearing glasses [and] thought to be John Andrew.” (BPD Reports #1-690, #5-690.) It was later established by the Boulder Police Department that John Andrew Ramsey had been in Atlanta for Christmas with his sister and mother at the time. Another police report states that “an unknown neighbor supposedly saw a person outside the door of the Ramsey house (during the night).” (BPD Report #1-771)

Paula Woodward, "We Have Your Daughter" p414

How did they enter the home? If thru the basement window (I find this doubtful) did they just get lucky and find a broken window for access? Did they case the house previously? The Rs were reported as being lax about locking doors. What a stroke of luck for the intruder!

There were cigarette butts found behind a neighbor's shed, where one would have s good view of JonBenet's room. The butts had been dropped there for a month, so the killer could have

So the intruder is in the house. What happens next? SA and murder or RN?

I may be in the minority, but I believe the note was written last.

Or does he write the RN after, then leave? But if he has SAed her and killed her, why leave the RN at all?

Once he had killed her I believe he realized two things. 1. No one had woken up and 2. He could hide the body in the wine cellar and leave a note. Why a fake kidnapping? First it delays discovery, second it prolongs the torment. If the Ramseys had followed the instructions he could have strung them along for days, while their daughter lay dead in the basement. Maybe he even thought he could get the money, though I doubt that was the main priority. See further Leopold and Loeb.

Why was the RN so ridiculous, long, and full of falsehoods (for example, I don’t believe this was the work of a “foreign faction”) and overly dramatic (“she dies, she dies”) What was gained by making it 3 pages long, when a short message would suffice? What was the ransom note intended to point away from?

The note wasn't written by a kidnapper, it was written by a murderer whose knowledge of kidnapping came from movies. Again, see Leopold and Loeb, whose ransom note (sent after they had already murdered the victim) was of similar length and tone. I believe the profile is similar.

Why hit her on the head so hard it virtually killed her? Especially if SA is the motive? Or kidnap?

I believe the SA and murder were connected. He intended both. The garrotte was s tool for both.

Was the SA a true SA, or were the elements of a SA staged to give the look of a SA? If staged, why?

The strangulation and digital/oral violation were all part of the SA.

When was the RN placed on the stairs, before or after killing JBR? Why place the note on the stairs, versus JBR room, or kitchen counter? Did the intruder know PR would rise and use those stairs, or did he just get lucky?

Geography. It is where the killer would pass on his way out from writing the note and exiting via the butler door. It's also s narrow passage that would ensure it would be seen by anyone who descended. No guarantee, bit there never would be.

Was the intruder there to SA and kill JBR? Or to kidnap for ransom?

The former.

Why no ransom call?

Cold feet. Perhaps he realized the Ramseys had called the police, depending on how close he was. Or he suspected, and didn't think it worth the risk.

How did the intruder travel there and leave? Car? On foot? If on foot, it’s unlikely kidnap was the plan. Either way, risky to be walking through or parking a strange car in an upscale community on Christmas night.

In Woodward's "We Have Your Daughter", she references reports of several neighbours seeing a blue van, but that one was a red herring. Boulder isn't a big city, I think he could have walked or biked.

Take away an element - what if the intruder had not left the RN? What would be gained or lost? Instead of PR being immediately aware that something has happened to JBR, she or JR might have gone to her room to wake her eventually, and discovered she was missing.

If she was just gone, they would have searched the house and possibly find her early. As for why, see above.

 

[Slebby]

Thanks Fergus, lots to consider, I appreciate your speedy reply.

 

[Jink3]

Thanks Fergus, lots to consider, I appreciate your speedy reply.

LOL please do you own research! I can’t get into all these ridiculous answers, but I’ll address one point.

COLD FEET? He believes a college kid broke in, committed all these acts, left her in the basement, left no fingerprints or viable DNA, wrote the note AFTER the murder asking for JRs bonus, then didn’t call the next day because of COLD FEET? Can’t we all just look at the actual evidence for once? For god sakes this guy brought up month old cigarette butts in the back ally shared by everyone on the block as evidence of stalking! Someone saw a blue van? Must have been the college killer!

There are some really well put together IDI theories. I don’t believe it for one second, but some atleast try to fit the evidence. Sadly these answers make me forget about the decent IDI theories.

 

[Slebby]

LOL please do you own research! I can’t get into all these ridiculous answers, but I’ll address one point.

COLD FEET? He believes a college kid broke in, committed all these acts, left her in the basement, left no fingerprints or viable DNA, wrote the note AFTER the murder asking for JRs bonus, then didn’t call the next day because of COLD FEET? Can’t we all just look at the actual evidence for once? For god sakes this guy brought up month old cigarette butts in the back ally shared by everyone on the block as evidence of stalking! Someone saw a blue van? Must have been the college killer!

There are some really well put together IDI theories. I don’t believe it for one second, but some atleast try to fit the evidence. Sadly these answers make me forget about the decent IDI theories.

Please take a breath.
I have done a lot of research, thanks. I believe I have an above average grasp of the facts, I’m just trying to keep an open mind.
What I don’t enjoy is heated discussions. I can say thanks for your reply without it meaning I 100 percent agree with you.

 

[Jink3]

Please take a breath.
I have done a lot of research, thanks. I believe I have an above average grasp of the facts, I’m just trying to keep an open mind.
What I don’t enjoy is heated discussions. I can say thanks for your reply without it meaning I 100 percent agree with you.

I was responding to FergusonMcDuck not you

 

[Slebby]

I was responding to FergusonMcDuck not you

Hard to tell as you replied to my comment, not FMD’s.

 

[PolyDot]

When did the intruder get to the R home? If they entered the home while the Rs were at dinner, then the intruder has to be someone who has no family or friends who would miss them on Christmas at dinner time. If they entered the home after the Rs has returned home, the intruder would still have to be someone who would not be missed if they were out in the middle of the night on Christmas.

How did they enter the home? If thru the basement window (I find this doubtful) did they just get lucky and find a broken window for access? Did they case the house previously? The Rs were reported as being lax about locking doors. What a stroke of luck for the intruder!

It has been said the Rs gave out a lot of house keys. So the intruder could be someone the Rs knew, who had a key, who could be out all evening and/or all Christmas night and not be missed by spouse or family.
So the intruder is in the house. What happens next? SA and murder or RN?

Does he first write a RN using PR’s notepad and pen, then put it away? Then go strike JBR on head, then haul to basement, SA, then leave? Or does he write the RN after, then leave? But if he has SAed her and killed her, why leave the RN at all?

Why was the RN so ridiculous, long, and full of falsehoods (for example, I don’t believe this was the work of a “foreign faction”) and overly dramatic (“she dies, she dies”) What was gained by making it 3 pages long, when a short message would suffice? What was the ransom note intended to point away from?

Why hit her on the head so hard it virtually killed her? Especially if SA is the motive? Or kidnap?

Was the SA a true SA, or were the elements of a SA staged to give the look of a SA? If staged, why?

When was the RN placed on the stairs, before or after killing JBR? Why place the note on the stairs, versus JBR room, or kitchen counter? Did the intruder know PR would rise and use those stairs, or did he just get lucky?

Was the intruder there to SA and kill JBR? Or to kidnap for ransom?

Why no ransom call?

How did the intruder travel there and leave? Car? On foot? If on foot, it’s unlikely kidnap was the plan. Either way, risky to be walking through or parking a strange car in an upscale community on Christmas night.

Take away an element - what if the intruder had not left the RN? What would be gained or lost? Instead of PR being immediately aware that something has happened to JBR, she or JR might have gone to her room to wake her eventually, and discovered she was missing.

What if the alleged SA had not happened or been staged to look like it had happened? IOW, what if JBR had only been fatally hit in the head? Or left in her bed? What would it mean for how the crime was perceived?

I would love to see other questions on the IDI. I also feel that it’s more helpful to look at all the questions, and not just one element, in order to explain an IDI. It can be easy to say “they got in with a house key” but that does not give a completely believable IDI theory, imo.

Very good post , it lays it all out very clearly.
Way too many holes to actually be an intruder who committed this crime .

 

[887sMtreme]

When did the intruder get to the R home? If they entered the home while the Rs were at dinner, then the intruder has to be someone who has no family or friends who would miss them on Christmas at dinner time. If they entered the home after the Rs has returned home, the intruder would still have to be someone who would not be missed if they were out in the middle of the night on Christmas.

How did they enter the home? If thru the basement window (I find this doubtful) did they just get lucky and find a broken window for access? Did they case the house previously? The Rs were reported as being lax about locking doors. What a stroke of luck for the intruder!

It has been said the Rs gave out a lot of house keys. So the intruder could be someone the Rs knew, who had a key, who could be out all evening and/or all Christmas night and not be missed by spouse or family.
So the intruder is in the house. What happens next? SA and murder or RN?

Does he first write a RN using PR’s notepad and pen, then put it away? Then go strike JBR on head, then haul to basement, SA, then leave? Or does he write the RN after, then leave? But if he has SAed her and killed her, why leave the RN at all?

Why was the RN so ridiculous, long, and full of falsehoods (for example, I don’t believe this was the work of a “foreign faction”) and overly dramatic (“she dies, she dies”) What was gained by making it 3 pages long, when a short message would suffice? What was the ransom note intended to point away from?

Why hit her on the head so hard it virtually killed her? Especially if SA is the motive? Or kidnap?

Was the SA a true SA, or were the elements of a SA staged to give the look of a SA? If staged, why?

When was the RN placed on the stairs, before or after killing JBR? Why place the note on the stairs, versus JBR room, or kitchen counter? Did the intruder know PR would rise and use those stairs, or did he just get lucky?

Was the intruder there to SA and kill JBR? Or to kidnap for ransom?

Why no ransom call?

How did the intruder travel there and leave? Car? On foot? If on foot, it’s unlikely kidnap was the plan. Either way, risky to be walking through or parking a strange car in an upscale community on Christmas night.

Take away an element - what if the intruder had not left the RN? What would be gained or lost? Instead of PR being immediately aware that something has happened to JBR, she or JR might have gone to her room to wake her eventually, and discovered she was missing.

What if the alleged SA had not happened or been staged to look like it had happened? IOW, what if JBR had only been fatally hit in the head? Or left in her bed? What would it mean for how the crime was perceived?

I would love to see other questions on the IDI. I also feel that it’s more helpful to look at all the questions, and not just one element, in order to explain an IDI. It can be easy to say “they got in with a house key” but that does not give a completely believable IDI theory, imo.

I don’t understand the value of the many “what if” scenarios you propose. None of them happened, so how does that help us understand what *did?” What point am I missing in your narrative?

 

[CloudedTruth]

When did the intruder get to the R home? If they entered the home while the Rs were at dinner, then the intruder has to be someone who has no family or friends who would miss them on Christmas at dinner time. If they entered the home after the Rs has returned home, the intruder would still have to be someone who would not be missed if they were out in the middle of the night on Christmas.

How did they enter the home? If thru the basement window (I find this doubtful) did they just get lucky and find a broken window for access? Did they case the house previously? The Rs were reported as being lax about locking doors. What a stroke of luck for the intruder!

It has been said the Rs gave out a lot of house keys. So the intruder could be someone the Rs knew, who had a key, who could be out all evening and/or all Christmas night and not be missed by spouse or family.
So the intruder is in the house. What happens next? SA and murder or RN?

Does he first write a RN using PR’s notepad and pen, then put it away? Then go strike JBR on head, then haul to basement, SA, then leave? Or does he write the RN after, then leave? But if he has SAed her and killed her, why leave the RN at all?

Why was the RN so ridiculous, long, and full of falsehoods (for example, I don’t believe this was the work of a “foreign faction”) and overly dramatic (“she dies, she dies”) What was gained by making it 3 pages long, when a short message would suffice? What was the ransom note intended to point away from?

Why hit her on the head so hard it virtually killed her? Especially if SA is the motive? Or kidnap?

Was the SA a true SA, or were the elements of a SA staged to give the look of a SA? If staged, why?

When was the RN placed on the stairs, before or after killing JBR? Why place the note on the stairs, versus JBR room, or kitchen counter? Did the intruder know PR would rise and use those stairs, or did he just get lucky?

Was the intruder there to SA and kill JBR? Or to kidnap for ransom?

Why no ransom call?

How did the intruder travel there and leave? Car? On foot? If on foot, it’s unlikely kidnap was the plan. Either way, risky to be walking through or parking a strange car in an upscale community on Christmas night.

Take away an element - what if the intruder had not left the RN? What would be gained or lost? Instead of PR being immediately aware that something has happened to JBR, she or JR might have gone to her room to wake her eventually, and discovered she was missing.

What if the alleged SA had not happened or been staged to look like it had happened? IOW, what if JBR had only been fatally hit in the head? Or left in her bed? What would it mean for how the crime was perceived?

I would love to see other questions on the IDI. I also feel that it’s more helpful to look at all the questions, and not just one element, in order to explain an IDI. It can be easy to say “they got in with a house key” but that does not give a completely believable IDI theory, imo.

IMO your questions point to there not having been an intruder. Because there really aren’t answers that satisfy these questions with any logic or sense.

 

[Slebby]

IMO your questions point to there not having been an intruder. Because there really aren’t answers that satisfy these questions with any logic or sense.

This was truly the point of the exercise, for me. I don’t believe IDI. But rather than get entrenched in the RDI position, I wanted to run through the hypothetical IDI timeline, step by step, to see if my mind could be changed, and to nudge others here at WS to get their input, whether they be RDI or IDI. It was helpful for me. It hasn’t elicited any compelling responses to make me believe IDI.
Another exercise I’d find helpful would be to give RDI the same treatment, a hypothetical RDI timeline, questions style, did this happen or did that? What are the holes in RDI? Right now the only “hole” I see is untested dna, and I don’t actually think it will amount to anything.
IMO

 

[CloudedTruth]

This was truly the point of the exercise, for me. I don’t believe IDI. But rather than get entrenched in the RDI position, I wanted to run through the hypothetical IDI timeline, step by step, to see if my mind could be changed, and to nudge others here at WS to get their input, whether they be RDI or IDI. It was helpful for me. It hasn’t elicited any compelling responses to make me believe IDI.
Another exercise I’d find helpful would be to give RDI the same treatment, a hypothetical RDI timeline, questions style, did this happen or did that? What are the holes in RDI? Right now the only “hole” I see is untested dna, and I don’t actually think it will amount to anything.
IMO

Yes, I understand. And it's a good exercise because when you do try to effectively (and with any sense) try to answer the questions, it drives home how unlikely the intruder theory is. IMO the IDI folks are driven by emotion. They have a difficult time accepting that family could have done this, so they use what I like to call pretzel logic to make a case for an intruder. They also latch onto the Ramsey narrative of misrepresentations and flawed explanations they just keep repeating.

The DNA is really the only "hole", but it doesn't amount to much at all.

 

[TizerisT]

There's a lot to unpack in the original post, but I'll try and keep it simple.

I'm fairly certain the killer, as you said, a loner drifter who wouldn't be missed on christmas day, had been stalking JB for quite some time, and saw the family leave together. He entered through the unfixed basement window that he already knew about, poked around for a while, wrote a ransom note, and eventually hid under the spare bed when the family returned.
At some point after the pineapple snack, he stun gunned her and carried her to the basement, dropping the note on the way. The kidnapping became botched and he elected to SA and silence her there and then. He escapes through the same window.
No ransom phonecall came because she was dead, so that plan was scrapped

Thats the short version, and there's no holes in this version of events.

 

[887sMtreme]

There's a lot to unpack in the original post, but I'll try and keep it simple.

I'm fairly certain the killer, as you said, a loner drifter who wouldn't be missed on christmas day, had been stalking JB for quite some time, and saw the family leave together. He entered through the unfixed basement window that he already knew about, poked around for a while, wrote a ransom note, and eventually hid under the spare bed when the family returned.
At some point after the pineapple snack, he stun gunned her and carried her to the basement, dropping the note on the way. The kidnapping became botched and he elected to SA and silence her there and then. He escapes through the same window.
No ransom phonecall came because she was dead, so that plan was scrapped

Thats the short version, and there's no holes in this version of events.

Where are you coming up with this lone drifter’s history of stalking JonBenet? Is there any testimony from anyone about having seen such a person in JonBenet’s life?

There was no evidence that the basement window had been breached; cobwebs and debris on the window frame were intact.

The pineapple snack was laid out on the downstairs kitchen table, not upstairs in the bedroom area.

There was no evidence of a stun gun having been used; that’s been off the list for a long time.

No holes?

 

[CloudedTruth]

I spy with my little eye a lot of holes.......

 

[TizerisT]

Where are you coming up with this lone drifter’s history of stalking JonBenet? Is there any testimony from anyone about having seen such a person in JonBenet’s life?

There was no evidence that the basement window had been breached; cobwebs and debris on the window frame were intact.

The pineapple snack was laid out on the downstairs kitchen table, not upstairs in the bedroom area.

There was no evidence of a stun gun having been used; that’s been off the list for a long time.

No holes?

The family house was an easy target being next to that alleyway. Furthermore JB's bedroom directly looked onto the alley. We can't prove it (but the cigarette butts potentially point towards it)

He didn't need to breach the window or cobweb. Watch the forensic house tour video again. It was easy as pie to simply reach in through the gap.

And no, the stun gun has not 'been off the list'. Whats your explanation for these parallel marks that appeard on JB then?

 

[INfisherman]

If IDI & came & went through same window, how was the door in the basement, to the room in which JBR was discovered (that I can recall), latched from up top on the outside of the door?

I have zero opinion as to WDI (publicly) FWIW. Case is a disaster.

 

[Slebby]

Honest question: even if an intruder came in the basement window, why would they leave the same way when they could simply walk out a door??

 

[INfisherman]

Honest question: even if an intruder came in the basement window, why would they leave the same way when they could simply walk out a door??

If I were an intruder, I wouldn’t be risking going back upstairs & potentially running into someone who may be up & wandering around for any number of reasons in the middle of the night (bathroom, snacks, drinks, heard a noise, etc.), especially if I’ve just murdered their little girl, allegedly amongst having done other things.

MOO

 

[FMB]

If I were an intruder, I wouldn’t be risking going back upstairs & potentially running into someone who may be up & wandering around for any number of reasons in the middle of the night (bathroom, snacks, drinks, heard a noise, etc.), especially if I’ve just murdered their little girl, allegedly amongst having done other things.

MOO

But he does risk writing a 3 page ransom note? He also risks feeding her a bowl of pineapple? He's not worried about JBR screaming when he snatches her out of her bedroom>? Is he using night vision goggles the whole time while moving up and down three levels of the home in the dark or does he risk turning lights on?

IMHO