Ramsey Clothing Journey

[DeeDee249]

Steve Thomas, who has seen the photos from the White's, has said that JBR was wearing the white top she was found in that day. PR said that she argued with JBR that day over what she was to wear, with PR wanting her daughter to wear her red turtleneck with the black velvet jeans, because she wanted them to match. As we all know, PR wore black velvet jeans, a red sweater and a red/black/white fleece sweater/jacket to the White's. It was fibers from that sweater/jacket that were found on the tape and in the garrote knot.
PR claims that JBR refused to wear the red turtleneck and after an argument she allowed her to wear the white top.
PR may be telling the truth about the top, because she knows LE had photos from the day. The red turtleneck was found balled up and wet in the sink outside JBR's bedroom- so we don't know if it got that way before going to the White's as they argued, or if PR tried to put the red turtleneck on her when they got home.

 

[JMO8778]

Thanks for this post, and answering my question. You know, I have seen the package that these Bloomies come in, and IMO...in order to get the WEDS one out, which would have been in the middle, the rest of them would have to have been taken out first. A man's hand wouldn't have fit into that package to just grab out the WEDS pair, and I don't believe that a woman's hand would have fit either, the first ones would have had to have been taken out before the WEDS. SOOO...are we supposed to assume that this "intruder" placed the size 12 Bloomies back in the package, or even IN ORDER, (minus the WEDS. of course)? I would just LOVE to see the package that the Ramsey's turned over. What sort of intruder takes panties out of a package, to get just the perfect one, with the right day of the week on it, and then replaces the others back? And as you said...those panties would have touch DNA from an "unknown" person, too...just like the ones that JB was wearing had..if an intruder truly handled that package (not to mention his fingeprints..as you stated...on the outside of the package). I would love to know...the answer to these questions.
1. When the Rams turned over the package of Bloomies, were all...but, the WED pair inside?
2. Were they in order, minus the WED pair?

An intruder taking the time to pull out just the right panties, and placing the others back in the package is hard ENOUGH to imagine. BUT..placing them back in order? Now that is complete B.S.

..from the reasons you stated above,I meant I think this is why I think the package they returned was unopened.
plus,jams,queen of all utter nonsense,always has an ax to grind on that site,and is always self-serving,so if she says it was an opened package that was returned,then,IMO,odds are they weren't opened.reason of deduction.

 

[UKGuy]

Okay, now I'm back in Patsy's FIRST LE interview with Thomas. And that's her first story about dressing JonBenet that day, and it's different than the second and third interviews. Years apart, of course, but in the first one, Patsy says she got the kids dressed to go to the Whites.

In the first interview, Patsy also said:





WE decided not to change the top, Patsy? It's odd she used "WE", isn't it? She and John maintained most of the time John carried JB to bed, Patsy followed, John left and Patsy pulled off the black velvet jeans and then put on the longjohns.

Well, I'm done for the night. Thanks for the interesting debate. Later.

KoldKase,
Yes back at the start they seemed to be projecting a collective perspective. No doubt you will have noticed as time slips by, John begins to recede ever so slowly from the picture, his involvement becomes minimized, as Patsy is left to answer stuff. Patently this is his response to each nugget of information his team have recieved from the DA or Lou Smit. That might make for an interesting topic all on its own, although it could be as convoluted as the current size-12 debate?

WE decided not to change the top, Patsy? It's odd she used "WE", isn't it? She and John maintained most of the time John carried JB to bed, Patsy followed, John left and Patsy pulled off the black velvet jeans and then put on the longjohns.

Well, I'm done for the night. Thanks for the interesting debate. Later.

Does that mean John was in the room and Patsy queried, shall we change her top? Anyway I reckon that is simply a fabricated version of events, they have to have an excuse for JonBenet wearing day-clothes to bed. The white-gap-top is a neglected piece of evidence because it need not have been left on JonBenet, just as her barbie-gown need not have been left in the wine-cellar?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Steve Thomas, who has seen the photos from the White's, has said that JBR was wearing the white top she was found in that day. PR said that she argued with JBR that day over what she was to wear, with PR wanting her daughter to wear her red turtleneck with the black velvet jeans, because she wanted them to match. As we all know, PR wore black velvet jeans, a red sweater and a red/black/white fleece sweater/jacket to the White's. It was fibers from that sweater/jacket that were found on the tape and in the garrote knot.
PR claims that JBR refused to wear the red turtleneck and after an argument she allowed her to wear the white top.
PR may be telling the truth about the top, because she knows LE had photos from the day. The red turtleneck was found balled up and wet in the sink outside JBR's bedroom- so we don't know if it got that way before going to the White's as they argued, or if PR tried to put the red turtleneck on her when they got home.

DeeDee249,
There is something suspicious regarding the discovery of Patsy's jacket fibers on JonBenet. That is did Patsy simply leave her jacket on, after returning home, or like the rest of did she hang it up, and start to wind down for day?

Its as if prior to the wine-cellar staging Patsy dresses in her jacket readying herself for an outdoors journey? Might this explain more fully the blankets, the redressing, the asymmetric ponytails, and of course the barbie-gown. Was JonBenet intended to be redressed in the barbie-gown, wrapped in the blankets and dumped outdoors, with the ransom note providing cover?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Oh, I was just kidding about rashomon's hat. You do know the story from which it came? It's a classic piece of Asian lit in which the story of a murder is told from three points of view and they all saw something "different" and come to different conclusions.

I can't say what was in Patsy's mind. What you theorize makes sense, of course, but that could be totally accidental, like the phantom DNA making it into the case.

Maybe Patsy jumped the shark when she said up front, "I gave JonBenet the package and she put them on herself." But think about it: where was she going to go after that opening gambit? She gave them to JonBenet in the basement and she put them on? If Patsy knew LE had that receipt, and of course she did, she HAD to admit she bought them. She also KNEW one pair was on JonBenet and FROM THE BIGGER PACKAGE. What excuse did she have about the Bloomies NOT being in the drawer? Other than "the intruder got them"? Patsy never actually seemed surprised LE didn't have them, not even inquisitive.

The fly in Patsy's ointment was the size issue, I believe. That's what LE kept drilling her about, because that was the part that exposed the lies.

So was Patsy really lying about putting the Bloomies in JonBenet's room/drawer, thinking once again she'd get away with it?

Or was there some other reason Patsy was lying about JonBenet wearing the Bloomies and she didn't know that the Bloomies weren't in the drawer?

That's the issue, right?

Six of one, half dozen of another. Either way, Patsy lied, IMO. So there are many possibilities. I guess I'm just having trouble finding one THE answer. But maybe I will have a breakthrough.... :woohoo:

KoldKase,

Oh, I was just kidding about rashomon's hat. You do know the story from which it came? It's a classic piece of Asian lit in which the story of a murder is told from three points of view and they all saw something "different" and come to different conclusions.

Ah, the old cat skinning problem, lol.

Maybe Patsy jumped the shark when she said up front, "I gave JonBenet the package and she put them on herself." But think about it: where was she going to go after that opening gambit? She gave them to JonBenet in the basement and she put them on? If Patsy knew LE had that receipt, and of course she did, she HAD to admit she bought them. She also KNEW one pair was on JonBenet and FROM THE BIGGER PACKAGE. What excuse did she have about the Bloomies NOT being in the drawer? Other than "the intruder got them"? Patsy never actually seemed surprised LE didn't have them, not even inquisitive.

OK lets assume that e.g. Patsy hopes the LE reckon that the intruder stole JonBenet's remaining clean size-12's, but left all manner of other stuff?

Patsy's offer is that she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's bathroom dresser drawer, and suggests maybe JonBenet dressed herself in them, hence all the amnesia regarding seeing JonBenet change her underwear on the 25th.

This still leaves open the unspoken inference that the killer redressed JonBenet and removed the remaining six-pairs, which in Ramsey terms means an intruder.

The question to ask is given Patsy's options does it matter where she says she placed the size-12's in the house? e.g. how about the basement and the intruder must have found them?

Another thought is if Patsy was so particular about what JonBenet wore to the White's you would think she would know what underwear she was wearing, e.g. did JonBenet want to wear size-12's just like mommy?

Of course what we don't know is if a Wednesday pair of size-6's is missing from the panty count? The interviewers never played that card, just that no size-12's were found.

So was Patsy really lying about putting the Bloomies in JonBenet's room/drawer, thinking once again she'd get away with it?

Or was there some other reason Patsy was lying about JonBenet wearing the Bloomies and she didn't know that the Bloomies weren't in the drawer?

Yes and a clue must be that the Ramsey's thought it imperative at such a late date to return those remaining size-12's?

.

 

[Ames]

Here you go, Ames:

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Bloomingdales-Inc-Company-History.html

Thanks so much for finding and posting this KK!

 

[rashomon]

Steve Thomas, who has seen the photos from the White's, has said that JBR was wearing the white top she was found in that day. PR said that she argued with JBR that day over what she was to wear, with PR wanting her daughter to wear her red turtleneck with the black velvet jeans, because she wanted them to match. As we all know, PR wore black velvet jeans, a red sweater and a red/black/white fleece sweater/jacket to the White's. It was fibers from that sweater/jacket that were found on the tape and in the garrote knot.
PR claims that JBR refused to wear the red turtleneck and after an argument she allowed her to wear the white top.
PR may be telling the truth about the top, because she knows LE had photos from the day. The red turtleneck was found balled up and wet in the sink outside JBR's bedroom- so we don't know if it got that way before going to the White's as they argued, or if PR tried to put the red turtleneck on her when they got home.

I can't understand why SteveThomas - who built his whole theory on a "rage over bedwetting scenario" during which Patsy angrily yanked the red turtleck from JonBenet's body - did not follow up on the forensic testing of this garment. I don't recall exactly where he said this (probably in his depo), but when asked about the garment, ST replied he didn't even know whether the turtleneck had been tested for urine or not.

Does anyone have the source where it says the turtleneck was wet and not just balled up? TIA for your help.

 

[Ames]

KoldKase,
Patsy is just speculating about the underwear she always forgets if she did or did not change on the 25th. From memory she is explicit that John took no part in assisting JonBenet wash or dress on the 25th!

Its possible the soiled pants left on the bathroom floor were what JonBenet removed prior to dressing fro the White's, with the soiling being normal, par for the course?


.

Are you talking about the soiled black pants? Patsy actually said in her interview that JB had worn those pants THAT DAY when she went out to play. So, yes...she wore those and removed them prior to dressing for the White's.

 

[Ames]

I can't understand why SteveThomas - who built his whole theory on a "rage over bedwetting scenario" during which Patsy angrily yanked the red turtleck from JonBenet's body - did not follow up on the forensic testing of this garment. I don't recall exactly where he said this (probably in his depo), but when asked about the garment, ST replied he didn't even know whether the turtleneck had been tested for urine or not.

Does anyone have the source where it says the turtleneck was wet and not just balled up? TIA for your help.

Don't know how reliable the source is...


http://www.justicejunction.com/innocence_lost_jonbenet_ramsey_the_dna.htm

"While investigating the house, a red, balled-up wet turtleneck top was found on the counter of JonBenet’s bathroom. Someone changed JonBenet’s clothing before her death. Why?"

From Ames: Also, IMO...if it was dry when placed on the counter, then it wouldn't have stayed "balled up".

 

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,
There is something suspicious regarding the discovery of Patsy's jacket fibers on JonBenet. That is did Patsy simply leave her jacket on, after returning home, or like the rest of did she hang it up, and start to wind down for day?

Wasn't this more like a jacket which was to be worn together with her outfit? More like a blazer? A jacket which for example she would have left on at the Whites' party too because it looked good combined with what she was wearing?
For in that case, I can see Patsy leaving the jacket on after returning home.

 

[rashomon]

John is redressing JonBenet in size-12's because he has something to hide, also this is what he knows matches most closely what JonBenet was wearing. Myabe the size-12's were in Patsy's dresser drawer, maybe it was in his bedroom that JonBenet was wiped down with her size-6 Wednesday Bloomingdales? The size-12's may simply have been put back into Patsy's drawer, suitable wiped for prints etc?

But then why didn't the police find them? If they searched the house from top to bottom, they would have rummaged through ALL dresser drawers., i. e.through Patsy's also.

No intruder needs to redress JonBenet at all, it is a redundant move, it serves no purpose. JonBenet is dead, redressing her in shiny new size-12's will not detract from that fact regardless of how she is presented. No intruder is concerned if everyone else is immediately aware that JonBenet has been molested!

That is the incriminating 'silent witness testimony' of the new size 12 Bloomies: These were NOT put on by an intruder.

 

[rashomon]

Don't know how reliable the source is...


http://www.justicejunction.com/innocence_lost_jonbenet_ramsey_the_dna.htm

"While investigating the house, a red, balled-up wet turtleneck top was found on the counter of JonBenet’s bathroom. Someone changed JonBenet’s clothing before her death. Why?"

From Ames: Also, IMO...if it was dry when placed on the counter, then it wouldn't have stayed "balled up".

Ames, I just did the test, balled up a dry turtleneck and "dramatically" threw it on our bedroom chest of drawers. Good that my husband is in another room watching soccer on TV, so he can't ask me "What on earth are you doing?"
He has asked me this often during my research of this case. I remember when he was quite puzzled once, seeing that his sneakers had no shoelaces anymore. I had pulled them out because I could get no soft flat nylon cord anywhere but wanted to tie the knots with a material coming close, so I took the shoelaces from the sneakers.
Back to my thrown turtleneck - it lies there looking bunched up and I think will stay that way unless moved.

[Koldkase]:
So was Patsy really lying about putting the Bloomies in JonBenet's room/drawer, thinking once again she'd get away with it?

Or was there some other reason Patsy was lying about JonBenet wearing the Bloomies and she didn't know that the Bloomies weren't in the drawer?

These are the two key questions in a nutshell.

Jmpo, but I lean toward the first explanation. For imo Patsy was the type who thought she would get away with anything, like for example with a ransom note written on her own paper in her own handwriting.
And the supreme irony of it all: it worked! :banghead:

 

[Ames]

Ames, I just did the test, balled up a dry turtleneck and "dramatically" threw it on our bedroom chest of drawers. Good that my husband is in another room watching soccer on TV, so he can't ask me "What on earth are you doing?"
He has asked me this often during my research of this case. I remember when he was quite puzzled once, seeing that his sneakers had no shoelaces anymore. I had pulled them out because I could get no soft flat nylon cord anywhere but wanted to tie the knots with a material coming close, so I took the shoelaces from the sneakers.
Back to my thrown turtleneck - it lies there looking bunched up and I think will stay that way unless moved.


These are the two key questions in a nutshell.

Jmpo, but I lean toward the first explanation. For imo Patsy was the type who thought she would get away with anything, like for example with a ransom note written on her own paper in her own handwriting.
And the supreme irony of it all: it worked! :banghead:

Is bunched up and "balled up" the same thing?

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Thats fine, but it does not explain her subsequent behaviour. Why should Patsy elect for size-12's when a pair of size-6's will be available upstairs or even in the spin-drier? Remember her position is that JonBenet dressed herself in those size-12's, so that means she could have dressed herself in any other pair of size-6's?

I must leave now but will be back later.

Good questions, UK.
We should indeed try and approach the issue from this perspective:
Why did the stager of the scene NOT put any size 6's on JonBenet, despite her drawers being full of them, but chose a factory-fresh far too large pair instead?
What was the reason for NOT putting smaller and fitting underpants on her? Why not just choose another Wednesday pair from her many size 6's? All her underwear had days of the week on them, so there was a good chance to find a Wednesday pair.
And why lay the focus on Wednesday at all? From what LHP told us, although JonBenet did have those days of the week underpants, she did not wear them with the correct day on them, that is, in no particular order.
So even if they did not find a Wednesday size 6 pair, the Ramseys could easily have argued that the day of the week was never paid attention to when JonBenet got dressed in them and LHP would have confirmed this.
But when staging the crime scene, it obviously WAS important to the stager that JonBenet be found in a Wednesday pair.
For choosing Wednesday would bolster their story "she was put to bed asleep and when found dead, was still wearing the underwear in which she had been put to bed on Wednesday night".
As for why they chose the factory-new Bloomies - maybe it was because all laundered size 6' still had stains of prior soiling on them? (see Holly Smiths remark about the size 6's) and the stager did not want LE to notice it?
As for the soiled jeans left by JonBenet in her room (or was it the bathroom?), the stager could simply have overlooked them.
Or did the size 6's Wednesday Bloomies she had been wearing contain incriminating forensic evidence, so the stager chose a size 12 pair to replace them, being unaware, in the dimly lit basement and with the victim lying on the floor, of how large they were?

 

[rashomon]

Is bunched up and "balled up" the same thing?

That's another diffculty since we don't have the picture. How 'balled up' was the turtleneck? Did ST say 'balled up' where maybe another person would simply have said 'bunched up'?
But being no native speaker, this is difficult for me to say.

 

[Ames]

That's another diffculty since we don't have the picture. How 'balled up' was the turtleneck? Did ST say 'balled up' where maybe another person would simply have said 'bunched up' or 'bundled up' maybe?
But being no native speaker, this is difficult for me to say.

Heck, I don't know...LOL To me, balled up means, in a ball formation. Bunched up, to me...means just bunched up, in no sort of formation. That's just me though. I do believe that the turtleneck was on JB when she wet the bed, though...and it got wet too. I believe that when a ticked off (for lack of a better word) Patsy tried to angrily yank it off of JB, and over her head...she lost her balance and fell onto something hard...like the sink, tub, or toilet. I also want to add that Patsy said that whenever JB took anything off, she always threw it onto the floor. IMO...Patsy is the one that took off that turtleneck, wet or not...and proably threw it onto the bathroom counter, after JB fell. I do not believe that JB placed the turtleneck there...since Patsy admitted that JB ALWAYS put her things on the floor (Just like my 7 year old, she NEVER puts her clothes up, clothes are on the floor, where she stepped out of them).

 

[BBB167893]

Heck, I don't know...LOL To me, balled up means, in a ball formation. Bunched up, to me...means just bunched up, in no sort of formation. That's just me though. I do believe that the turtleneck was on JB when she wet the bed, though...and it got wet too. I believe that when a ticked off (for lack of a better word) Patsy tried to angrily yank it off of JB, and over her head...she lost her balance and fell onto something hard...like the sink, tub, or toilet.

My mother sometimes said "balled" to mean "bunched." Sorry if that's not much help.

Perhaps, JB tried to get away, Patsy grabbed her by the collar, threw her onto the bed and she hit the dresser next to it?

 

[Ames]

Good questions, UK.
We should indeed try and approach the issue from this perspective:
Why did the stager of the scene NOT put any size 6's on JonBenet, despite her drawers being full of them, but chose a factory-fresh far too large pair instead?
What was the reason for NOT putting smaller and fitting underpants on her? Why not just choose another Wednesday pair from her many size 6's? All her underwear had days of the week on them, so there was a good chance to find a Wednesday pair.
And why lay the focus on Wednesday at all? From what LHP told us, although JonBenet did have those days of the week underpants, she did not wear them with the correct day on them, that is, in no particular order.
So even if they did not find a Wednesday size 6 pair, the Ramseys could easily have argued that the day of the week was never paid attention to when JonBenet got dressed in them and LHP would have confirmed this.
But when staging the crime scene, it obviously WAS important to the stager that JonBenet be found in a Wednesday pair.
For choosing Wednesday would bolster their story "she was put to bed asleep and when found dead, was still wearing the underwear in which she had been put to bed on Wednesday night".
As for why they chose the factory-new Bloomies - maybe it was because all laundered size 6' still had stains of prior soiling on them? (see Holly Smiths remark about the size 6's) and the stager did not want LE to notice it?
As for the soiled jeans left by JonBenet in her room (or was it the bathroom?), the stager could simply have overlooked them.
Or did the size 6's Wednesday Bloomies she had been wearing contain incriminating forensic evidence, so the stager chose a size 12 pair to replace them, being unaware, in the dimly lit basement and with the victim lying on the floor, of how large they were?

I still believe that those size 12's were in the basement, and that's the first thing that they grabbed, and like you said...it was dark and they didn't realize how large they were. I don't believe that the panties were ever in JB's drawer. I believe that she had a set, and that Patsy bought a size 12 set for Jenny.

 

[Ames]

My mother sometimes said "balled" to mean "bunched." Sorry if that's not much help.

Perhaps, JB tried to get away, Patsy grabbed her by the collar, threw her onto the bed and she hit the dresser next to it?

Now that is possible, since.. when shown a picture of the drapes above JB's bed...Patsy said.."I don't see any blood on them, do you?" I thought that was pretty weird, since NOBODY mentioned the word blood to her at all.

 

[BBB167893]

Now that is possible, since.. when shown a picture of the drapes above JB's bed...Patsy said.."I don't see any blood on them, do you?" I thought that was pretty weird, since NOBODY mentioned the word blood to her at all.

Yeah, why would she say that?