Ransom note analysis

[otg]

We were raised Baptist, my sister married the son of the Canon Bishop and converted to Episcopalian. We have jokingly called it Catholic lite. I have been to both church services and they are very different and have different requirements from their organizations. You know you are in a Baptist church if there is always a call, at every service, for people to come down and be saved then baptized. Baptist-baptize get the name. They also do a lot of mission work.

Episcopalian services have the same pomp and props of Catholic services but those who are already baptized of any faith may take communion with the church body. Communion is offered at every service.

"Catholic lite" -- that's good.

If my understanding is correct, the Episcopalian Church is what the Anglican Church (Church of England) is called outside of Britain. After the American Revolution, they had to split with the Anglicans because their clergy were required to swear allegiance to the British Crown. And the Church of England was started by Henry VIII basically because the Pope would not grant him a divorce, so Henry just decided to start his own church just like the Roman Catholic -- but with divorce allowed. ("It's good to be King!" --Mel Brooks)

Another way you know you're in a Baptist Church is that they always serve Welch's grape juice (yechkkk) for Communion instead of wine.
.

 

[MurriFlower]

"Catholic lite" -- that's good.

If my understanding is correct, the Episcopalian Church is what the Anglican Church (Church of England) is called outside of Britain. After the American Revolution, they had to split with the Anglicans because their clergy were required to swear allegiance to the British Crown. And the Church of England was started by Henry VIII basically because the Pope would not grant him a divorce, so Henry just decided to start his own church just like the Roman Catholic -- but with divorce allowed. ("It's good to be King!" --Mel Brooks)

Another way you know you're in a Baptist Church is that they always serve Welch's grape juice (yechkkk) for Communion instead of wine.
.

The reason I asked was more to do with the Missions in Ghana. I was thinking there might be a 'multi-denominational' mission there supported by both Baptist and Episcopalian churches.

There was always a question as to where the former nanny went on her 'mission for the church'.

 

[CathyR]

"Catholic lite" -- that's good.

If my understanding is correct, the Episcopalian Church is what the Anglican Church (Church of England) is called outside of Britain. After the American Revolution, they had to split with the Anglicans because their clergy were required to swear allegiance to the British Crown. And the Church of England was started by Henry VIII basically because the Pope would not grant him a divorce, so Henry just decided to start his own church just like the Roman Catholic -- but with divorce allowed. ("It's good to be King!" --Mel Brooks)

Another way you know you're in a Baptist Church is that they always serve Welch's grape juice (yechkkk) for Communion instead of wine.
.

We don't do communion in the Southern Baptist churches I've been too. Not even at Easter or Christmas.

 

[CathyR]

Why didn't the CBI identify it as Patsy's then.
The were not embroiled in the political fighting going on in Boulder.

The expert refused to skew his results and would only say Patsy can not be eliminated as the author.

The leaving the wide margin- if the paper is ruled with a margin already placed in it most American writers will use that as the margin guide as well as the right hand margin if the paper is formal like an essay. The left hand margin is not followed on the second page it slants to the left.

 

[Ames]

We don't do communion in the Southern Baptist churches I've been too. Not even at Easter or Christmas.

It's not called "Communion" in Southern Baptist Churches...is called "The Lord's Supper". I have been Southern Bapt. all my life...and have played keyboard and piano for many of them. They ALL have had the Lord's Supper.

 

[BBB167893]

Why didn't the CBI identify it as Patsy's then.
The were not embroiled in the political fighting going on in Boulder.

Well, it's my understanding that the CBI expert DID identify it as Patsy's writing. PMPT states specifically that he was ready to say "Patsy wrote the note." FOX News reported that Ubowski testified before the Grand Jury and said that only the disguised writing and bleeding pen ink kept him from ID'ing PR 100% And in a recent radio interview with Mark Fuhrman, an investigative journalist said that he spoke to one of the CBI examiners (possibly Ubowski) and this person told him that PR was the writer, but the DA didn't think handwriting analysis would pass the admissability standard for use in court.

The reason I bolded that part is because it speaks to your point about political infighting. They may not have been part of it, but they were certainly affected by it. It helps to remember that just a year before JB was murdered, handwriting analysis had taken a HUGE hit in terms of admissability when Judge Hatsch in the OKC bombing case ruled against it in Federal court. PMPT mentions several times that Alex Hunter didn't think any analysis he got would be strong enough to pass the reliability test.

One must also take into account the intense level of politicking that goes on within the world of document examination. Alex Hunter wanted to scrap the analyses entirely and present the handwriting comparison charts before the jury so they could make up their own minds.

But even then, proving she wrote the ransom note does not prove she was the killer. I dedicated an entire thread to this phenomenon called "the cross fingerpointing defense."

The expert refused to skew his results and would only say Patsy can not be eliminated as the author.

That's from ST's book. Problem is, that's as far as they'd gotten when he left. There's another quote in their even more pressing, from Pete Hofstrom: "So what if she wrote the note? That doesn't prove she killed her kid."

And he's right.

It also might interest you that one of the finest document examiners on the planet did an analysis on his own and took it to both Hunter and Mary Lacy. Neither one was interested.

 

[joeskidbeck]

It's not called "Communion" in Southern Baptist Churches...is called "The Lord's Supper". I have been Southern Bapt. all my life...and have played keyboard and piano for many of them. They ALL have had the Lord's Supper.

Thanks, Ames. I was about to chime in that I'm not Southern Baptist, but I am Independent Baptist and we have "the Lord's Supper" several times a year, but always at Easter. It's the same thing whether or not you call it Communion or the Lord's Supper. We just don't use real wine, only grape juice.

 

[Tadpole12]

FOX News reported that Ubowski testified before the Grand Jury and said that only the disguised writing and bleeding pen ink kept him from ID'ing PR 100%. SD

Heyya SD.

You presented a 'precarious' quote and interpretation, encapsulated by FOX, when in practice CU could never arrive at any conclusion being 100% (given the design of his methodology, using a gradient scale for interpretation.)

Is it another allusion?
All the post Grand Jury chatter.

Going back through the archived headlines and I'm confronted with questions about motive, not the Ramseys', but all the auxillary players and celeb experts, and all the unnamed police sources.
Unbelievable how much info was `released`in the first weeks and months post crime.

 

[BBB167893]

FOX News reported that Ubowski testified before the Grand Jury and said that only the disguised writing and bleeding pen ink kept him from ID'ing PR 100%. SD

Heyya SD.

Hey, Tadpole.

You presented a 'precarious' quote and interpretation, encapsulated by FOX, when in practice CU could never arrive at any conclusion being 100% (given the design of his methodology, using a gradient scale for interpretation.)

Just telling you what they said, Tadpole. In fact, here's the actual statement from Carol McKinley:

"Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

Now, it's possible that FOX added the "100%" to clarify the issue for their viewers. Although, it should be noted that no one from the BPD, DA's office or CBI has challenged this assertion, and when the Rs sued FOX News for this story in 2002, a CO judge ruled they had no grounds.

For the record, I'm sure you're not accusing me of deliberately trying to mislead people. You know that's not how I do business.

Is it another allusion?
All the post Grand Jury chatter.

I'm not sure what you mean, Tadpole.

Going back through the archived headlines and I'm confronted with questions about motive, not the Ramseys', but all the auxillary players and celeb experts, and all the unnamed police sources.

Questions such as?

Unbelievable how much info was `released`in the first weeks and months post crime.

What are you getting at, Tadpole?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hey SD.

Just wanted to point out the FOX'ism.
Ty for the source of info.

Rereading, the news coverage, ...... just an observation of the reactionary nature of news coverage, expert opines and leaked information that forms the basis of our own discussions.

For the record, you've always been a straight shooter',
not a misleader.

Questions such as?
Argh! The same ol' same old questions and more.
How much truth is within each statement and article, what's just self-serving, lip-service; and to what issues of the previous event reported does the subsequent article respond to.

Getting at? Just an observation on how so many of the 'core' details of the case and crime scene were available, early on.
Pre the online dilution.

 

[BBB167893]

Hey SD.

Just wanted to point out the FOX'ism.
Ty for the source of info.

No problem. In hindsight, it might have been better to say "with certainty" rather than "100%"

You mentioned the gradient scale. So, for those of you who don't know what he's talking about, in the case US v. Thornton, a nine-point scale was developed in order to "grade" certainty of analysis, ranging from:

1)Identification, 2)Highly probable did write, 3)Probably did write, 4)Indications did write, 5)No conclusion, 6)Indications did not write, 7)Probably did not write, 8)Highly probable did not write, and 9)Elimination

Also in that case, this statement was made:

"Since the Daubert and Kumho Tire decisions, courts have been split on the admissibility of expert testimony of a forensic document examiner. Some courts have found the testimony to be reliable and fully admissible. Some courts have determined that the forensic document examiner's testimony was not sufficiently reliable and therefore fully excluded their testimony. However, other courts have taken a middle position, permitting the forensic document examiner to testify as to particular similarities and dissimilarities between the documents, but excluding the ultimate opinion on authorship."

Complicated, isn't it?

Rereading, the news coverage, ...... just an observation of the reactionary nature of news coverage, expert opines and leaked information that forms the basis of our own discussions.

Gotcha.

For the record, you've always been a straight shooter', not a misleader.

That wouldn't get any of us anywhere.

Questions such as?
Argh! The same ol' same old questions and more.
How much truth is within each statement and article, what's just self-serving, lip-service; and to what issues of the previous event reported does the subsequent article respond to.

It's hell being an online sleuths, isn't it?

Getting at? Just an observation on how so many of the 'core' details of the case and crime scene were available, early on.
Pre the online dilution.

A terrible mistake, in my view.

 

[MurriFlower]

No problem. In hindsight, it might have been better to say "with certainty" rather than "100%"

You mentioned the gradient scale. So, for those of you who don't know what he's talking about, in the case US v. Thornton, a nine-point scale was developed in order to "grade" certainty of analysis, ranging from:

1)Identification, 2)Highly probable did write, 3)Probably did write, 4)Indications did write, 5)No conclusion, 6)Indications did not write, 7)Probably did not write, 8)Highly probable did not write, and 9)Elimination

Also in that case, this statement was made:

"Since the Daubert and Kumho Tire decisions, courts have been split on the admissibility of expert testimony of a forensic document examiner. Some courts have found the testimony to be reliable and fully admissible. Some courts have determined that the forensic document examiner's testimony was not sufficiently reliable and therefore fully excluded their testimony. However, other courts have taken a middle position, permitting the forensic document examiner to testify as to particular similarities and dissimilarities between the documents, but excluding the ultimate opinion on authorship."

Hmmm, that's interesting. I notice that you did not include that 'PR wrote the RN' in your 'EVIDENCE' so I think this, and the above, is an admission that there is quite a bit of doubt as to the accuracy of hand writing analysis. I'd call that a breakthrough for RDI as one of the cornerstones of the theory has been that PR wrote the RN. :woohoo:

 

[Toltec]

I keep thinking that Nedra's answer to the SBTC "Son of a B**%h Tom Carson is true...perhaps the Paugh family used "SB" to describe other people.

If not...my second guess would be something Patsy wrote in DOI:

Father Rol began reading from Isaiah 53. He explained to me as Jesus Christ walked to Calvary, he was lashed and beaten; those stripes on his back were for our sickness and healing. Then as Christ hung on the cross dying for our sins, the agony that he endured there was also for the health of the entire human race. For the first time in my life, someone told me that both physical and emotional healing are extended to us through the pain and agony that Christ absorbed through his last hours on Earth.

If not, my third guess would be something Patsy wrote in DOI:

Of course, red represents our redemption through the shed blood of Christ.

 

[BBB167893]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I notice that you did not include that 'PR wrote the RN' in your 'EVIDENCE'

What are you talking about? I DID say that.

so I think this, and the above, is an admission that there is quite a bit of doubt as to the accuracy of hand writing analysis.

I don't think I ever said otherwise.

I'd call that a breakthrough for RDI as one of the cornerstones of the theory has been that PR wrote the RN. :woohoo:

Still is. I have no idea what this "breakthrough" is.

 

[GingBreade]

JR: Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it. At some point we checked Burke, I think I checked Burke. Patsy asked what should we do, and I said call the police, and she called 911.

Hmmm he says he LAID it on the floor and spread it out!? Why oh why aren't his fingerprints on the note...also...Patsy is busted too as she said in one interview that JR was sitting on the floor reading the note (like to us dumb *s she is saying that he actually has to sit on the floor and read a friggin note) HAHAHA busted Patsy again!

Seriously though, what was John DOING when she called 911?

 

[DeeDee249]

JR: Well I’m, it’s a lot of screaming going on around that, but we saw the note and read the first part. Ah, I think I might have run upstairs to look in JonBenet’s room. At one point I laid it on the floor and spread it out so I could read it real fast without having to sit and read it. At some point we checked Burke, I think I checked Burke. Patsy asked what should we do, and I said call the police, and she called 911.

Hmmm he says he LAID it on the floor and spread it out!? Why oh why aren't his fingerprints on the note...also...Patsy is busted too as she said in one interview that JR was sitting on the floor reading the note (like to us dumb *s she is saying that he actually has to sit on the floor and read a friggin note) HAHAHA busted Patsy again!

Seriously though, what was John DOING when she called 911?

Well, we know he was there- he can be heard on the tape.

 

[Toltec]

I can't picture John (naked except for his undies) on hands and knees reading a three-page letter! How old was he...55? Was the floor heated?

Bwaaahaahaa!

 

[JMO8778]

I can't picture John (naked except for his undies) on hands and knees reading a three-page letter! How old was he...55? Was the floor heated?

Bwaaahaahaa!

rofl...well,anything to keep his prints off that dastardly note.
I'd have yanked it from my husb.'s hand if our child was missing.

 

[claudicici]

I'm reading old posts from a banned member named "Blue Moon" and I'm excited because he thinks the way I think but can never express it,this is what he said in 2005

"The content of the note is the content of Patsy's psychosis; death, judgment, resurrection, salvation." I totally agree!

 

[Agatha_C]

John had bad eyes, that's why he employed a private pilot. There's no way he could bend over the note with only the hall light behind him and read.