Reasonable doubt-Jury instructions and More #2

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  • #81
Fact...Casey didn't report her daughter missing or call for help because of an accident.
Fact...Casey was the last person seen with Caylee alive.
Fact...Decomposing head hair of Caylee's was found in the trunk of Casey's car the exact day that Casey told the police that she had "spoken with" Caylee.
Fact...Caylee was found dead, and their were three layers of Henkle brand duct tape over her mouth and nose.
Fact...The Henkle tape would cause death to a anyone when applied in the manner it was found , thereby it IS what caused Caylee's death.
Fact...That particular tape found over Caylee's mouth and nose, came from the same source as the Henkle tape used at Casey's house.

NOW, the totality of THAT evidence tell me all I need to know.

Therefore, I conclude beyond any reasonable doubt, that while CASEY was putting the Henkle brand duct tape over the mouth AND nose of her daughter Caylee, she had the time to reflect that this MAY kill her daughter and chose to apply, both the second and third layers!

Is that what you are looking for Wudge, because, I think the three layers of duct tape prove pre-meditation in the application. Therefore, MURDER in the first degree, premeditated.


In this case, you believe three layers of duct tape prove Casey committed premeditated murder. We can work with that to see what is necessarily required.

I'll complete the major premise. I'll also complete what you believe to be the inferred conclusion.

You complete the minor premise with whatever must necessarily be true for the conclusion to be valid and reliable to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.




Major premise: Three layers of duct tape were found covering the mouth and nose of Caylee's dead body.

Minor premise: (To be filled in by Tweety)

Inferred conclusion: Casey (the Mother) is guilty of premeditated murder.
 
  • #82
imbackon said:
Regarding the 31 days...
Has anyone ever heard of ONE CASE, where a parent did not report their young child missing that subsequently convicted some other person of the murder, where it is NOT BELIEVED that the parent at least had knowledge of the murder?

I am of the understanding Casey can get DP or minimum LWOP whether premeditated or not. Am I right?
If so,why oh why must premeditation keep being brought into the question of reasonable doubt. If people think evidence known so far shows murder 1 or whatever the level is to get LWOP at minimum, why all the emphasis on premeditation in these posts?
Because that is what she is charged with and we are wondering if she can actually be convicted of premeditated murder.

I think most evidence points to KC being guilty of killing her daughter in one way or another and I don;t think that is being challenged much. The question is:
1. Was it done in a blind rage with no premeditation?
2. Was it premeditated; either preplanned methodically or moments prior?
3. Was it accidental and subsequently covered up.?
4. <Insert other option here>

At this point, I personally cannot totally rule any of these issues in or out beyond a reasonable doubt.
Maybe in the court of public opinion most of us are drawing our own conclusions. But if we were actually on the jury and we were bound to convict specifically on the evidence presented, what would we vote?

I personally don't know and won't know until the SA lays out all the evidence.
 
  • #83
Kathleen Peterson bled to death. My original post referred to the juror's obvious logic failure; i.e., from the amount of blood in the stairwell, premeditation could not be inferred to the certainty level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Moreover, the reporter immediately recognized this to be true too. That is why they kept the mic in front of the juror waiting to hear more from them -- and they waited and they waited and they waited -- but the juror said no more. The juror was satisfied with the sufficiency of the amount of blood proving premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt.

(I have seen far, far more than a few members of juries who had serious reasoning deficiences. And when assessing circumstantial evidence, such deficiences can be deadly. Moreover, in a circumstantial evidence case -- like this case and the Michael Peterson case -- that deficieny is in the most needed skill. That being, the ability to form valid and reliable conclusions from true premises.

Major premise: Jim always wears a cowboy hat.

Minor premise: Cowboys wear cowboy hats.

Inferred conclusion: Jim is a cowboy.


Is the inferred conclusion valid and reliable? )
Nope, just don't see that as a logical progression in thought.
 
  • #84
Regarding the 31 days...
Has anyone ever heard of ONE CASE, where a parent did not report their young child missing that subsequently convicted some other person of the murder, where it is NOT BELIEVED that the parent at least had knowledge of the murder?

I am of the understanding Casey can get DP or minimum LWOP whether premeditated or not. Am I right?
If so,why oh why must premeditation keep being brought into the question of reasonable doubt. If people think evidence known so far shows murder 1 or whatever the level is to get LWOP at minimum, why all the emphasis on premeditation in these posts?

Great point. I've certainly never heard of a case wherein a parent didn't report and wasn't complicit.

I also agree that to trigger death penalty/lwop penalties, the state must either show premeditation or the state must show that Caylee died during the commission of a charged felony, in this case, aggravated child abuse.

"Under Knight v. State, 338 So.2d 201 (Fla. 1976), felony murder is included within a single indictment count of premeditated murder. Therefore, first degree felony murder should be given if requested by the state and if supported by the evidence, although it is not a lesser included offense."

According to the jury instructions, Knight controls and you are correct.
 
  • #85
Regarding the 31 days...
Has anyone ever heard of ONE CASE, where a parent did not report their young child missing that subsequently convicted some other person of the murder, where it is NOT BELIEVED that the parent at least had knowledge of the murder?

I am of the understanding Casey can get DP or minimum LWOP whether premeditated or not. Am I right?
If so,why oh why must premeditation keep being brought into the question of reasonable doubt. If people think evidence known so far shows murder 1 or whatever the level is to get LWOP at minimum, why all the emphasis on premeditation in these posts?

Casey was charged with Murder 1. The elements of the Florida statute require premeditation for a conviction of Murder 1. Felony murder which has the same punishment level as murder 1 does not require premeditation. Felony murder is not a lesser included charge of murder 1. Casey has not been charged with felony murder so therefore she can not be convicted for it. However the state can easily ask for a felony murder charge.

Hope that answers your question as to why premeditation is being discussed. If I'm wrong in this please someone feel free to point this in the right way.
 
  • #86
Because that is what she is charged with and we are wondering if she can actually be convicted of premeditated murder.

I think most evidence points to KC being guilty of killing her daughter in one way or another and I don;t think that is being challenged much. The question is:
1. Was it done in a blind rage with no premeditation?
2. Was it premeditated; either preplanned methodically or moments prior?
3. Was it accidental and subsequently covered up.?
4. <Insert other option here>

At this point, I personally cannot totally rule any of these issues in or out beyond a reasonable doubt.
Maybe in the court of public opinion most of us are drawing our own conclusions. But if we were actually on the jury and we were bound to convict specifically on the evidence presented, what would we vote?

I personally don't know and won't know until the SA lays out all the evidence.

Thanks for that outline. #3 is where I differ with some. To my knowledge we have seen no evidence offered to show there was any type of accident/cover up scenario.

To my view, the duct tape and other evidence is inconsistent with this theory.

So, until something is shown to indicate there could have been an accident, I don't consider it an option.

From what we can infer as to a cause of death, if we're not considering accidental for the above reasons, and we're ruling out instantaneous death such as a gunshot due to no evidence, then what we are left with as possible mechanisms of death, smothering, etc. the law has held that there was sufficient intervening time to reflect on the actions, thereby equating premeditation.

Just my view of things. :)
 
  • #87
That doesn't stand for what you imply it does.

Evidence is not a fact. Fact is determined by the jury. Evidence is provided to the jury from which they are to determine the facts.

Evidence is subject to the "competent, substantial" standard, not a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard. To suggest otherwise is patently ridiculous. If what you suggest were true, a trial would be unending, having to show each little thing beyond a reasonable doubt. How do we know this is Amy testifying? Do we spend a day analyzing her identification, put on several witnesses including the obstetrician that delivered her?

The trier of fact, the jury in the instant case, determines the weight of the evidence and whether each fact is proven. Each piece of evidence used to support the facts established in the case is subject to the "competent and substantial" standard.

When interpreting case law, one should always review other cases to fully understand the application and implication. If one memorizes every statute, they are not equipped to practice law; indeed, "the law" is the interplay between statute, precedent and rules. And context really helps.

(yet again, HTH)

To put your quote in context:
...
As we said in Speiser v. Randall, supra, at 525-526: "There is always in litigation a margin of error, representing error in factfinding, which both parties must take into account. Where one party has at stake an interest of transcending value -- as a criminal defendant his liberty -- this margin of error is reduced as to him by the process of placing on the other party the burden of . . . persuading the factfinder at the conclusion of the trial of his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Due process commands that no man shall lose his liberty unless the Government has borne the burden of . . . convincing the factfinder of his guilt." To this end, the reasonable-doubt standard is indispensable, for it "impresses on the trier of fact the necessity of reaching a subjective state of certitude of the facts in issue." Dorsen & Rezneck, In Re Gault and the Future of Juvenile Law, 1 Family Law Quarterly, No. 4, pp. 1, 26 (1967).

Moreover, use of the reasonable-doubt standard is indispensable to command the respect and confidence of the community in applications of the criminal law. It is critical that the moral force of the criminal law not be diluted by a standard of proof that leaves people in doubt whether innocent men are being condemned. It is also important in our free society that every individual going about his ordinary affairs have confidence that his government cannot adjudge him guilty of a criminal offense without convincing a proper factfinder of his guilt with utmost certainty.

Lest there remain any doubt about the constitutional stature of the reasonable-doubt standard, we explicitly hold that the Due Process Clause protects the accused against conviction except upon proof beyond a reasonable doubt of every fact necessary to constitute the crime with which he is charged."

Please note the date of the following:

Excerpted from Barber v. State, Case No. 5D06-3529 (Fla. 5th DCA 2009):

"Because this is a purely circumstantial evidence case, a special standard of review applies to our analysis.
...

The question of whether the evidence fails to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence is for the jury to determine, and where there is substantial, competent evidence to support the jury verdict, we will not reverse." Darling v. State, 808 So. 2d 145, 155 (Fla.) (quoting State v. Law, 559 So. 2d 187, 188 (Fla. 1989)), cert. denied, 537 U.S. 848 (2002). In meeting its burden, the State is not required to "rebut conclusively, every possible variation of events" which could be inferred from the evidence, but must introduce competent evidence which is inconsistent with the defendant's theory of events. Darling, 808 So. 2d at 156 (quoting Law, 559 So. 2d at 189).

Once the State meets this threshold burden, it becomes the jury's duty to determine whether the evidence is sufficient to exclude every reasonable hypothesis of innocence beyond a reasonable doubt. Id.

This Court does not have to determine that every reasonable hypothesis of innocence was excluded in this case. The sole determination we must make is whether there was competent, substantial evidence for the jury to make such a determination. See Darling, 808 So. 2d at 156 (citing Law, 559 So. 2d at 188-89)."

(emphasis added)

Excerpted from Jenkins v. State, No. 3D07-1211 (Fla. 3rd DCA 2009)

"[This] special standard of review of the sufficiency of the evidence applies where a conviction is wholly based on circumstantial evidence. Where the only proof of guilt is circumstantial, no matter how strongly the evidence may suggest guilt, a conviction cannot be sustained unless the evidence is inconsistent with any reasonable hypothesis of innocence. The question of whether the evidence fails to exclude all reasonable hypotheses of innocence is for the jury to determine, and where there is substantial, competent evidence to support the jury verdict, we will not reverse."
(emphasis added)
Oh, I like that line..."competent evidence"...
 
  • #88
Casey was charged with Murder 1. The elements of the Florida statute require premeditation for a conviction of Murder 1. Felony murder which has the same punishment level as murder 1 does not require premeditation. Felony murder is not a lesser included charge of murder 1. Casey has not been charged with felony murder so therefore she can not be convicted for it. However the state can easily ask for a felony murder charge.

Hope that answers your question as to why premeditation is being discussed. If I'm wrong in this please someone feel free to point this in the right way.

You stayed away too long and were missed, btw. If you check out the legal procedures thread, you'll see that it's been agreed that due to a special exception listed in the instructions, although you're correct it's not a lio, she can still be convicted of fm.

The discussion starts here and you'll note all the verified lawyers that weighed in are in agreement on this point.
 
  • #89
Nope, just don't see that as a logical progression in thought.

(Gold star )

Now I will change the minor premise, which changes the argument.


Major premise: Jim always wears a cowboy hat.

Minor premise: Only cowboys wear cowboy hats.

Inferred Conclusion: Jim is a cowboy.



If the revised premises are true, is the conclusion now necessarily valid and reliable?
 
  • #90
Oh, I like that line..."competent evidence"...

That's all Winship requires too. Evidence is used to prove facts which are then used to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or not, as the case may be. The evidence itself is not subject to such a high standard. This is why the jury may give little weight to certain evidence, finding it not particularly credible or persuasive.
 
  • #91
In this case, you believe three layers of duct tape prove Casey committed premeditated murder. We can work with that to see what is necessarily required.

I'll complete the major premise. I'll also complete what you believe to be the inferred conclusion.

You complete the minor premise with whatever must necessarily be true for the conclusion to be valid and reliable to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.




Major premise: Three layers of duct tape were found covering the mouth and nose of Caylee's dead body.

Minor premise: (To be filled in by Tweety)

Inferred conclusion: Casey (the Mother) is guilty of premeditated murder.

The minor premise being......When duct tape is applied over a persons mouth and nose in this manner it is without a doubt something that is likely to suffocate someone.

That's my logic of the premeditation element!

Being that I find these facts, each seperately, to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, the combination of the totality of these facts lead me to the logical conclusion that the crime was committed beyond any reasonable doubt!
 
  • #92
The issue was not and is not related to the jury's verdict. The issue was and remains whether the juror's answer to the reporter's proved premediation beyond a reasonable doubt. It could not. It did not.

Again, if you so so hold that the juror's answer was sufficient to prove premeditation beyond a reasonable doubt, layout the premises that necessarily force your conclusion.
What I don't understand is why anyone would "presume" what this juror meant from this lone statement?
 
  • #93
What I don't understand is why anyone would "presume" what this juror meant from this lone statement?

Or at the least, not presume more than what was stated. 'There was all that blood." That's their answer and we shouldn't require more.
 
  • #94
I posted the following categorical syllogism.


Major premise: Toddler is missing for 31 days.

Minor premise: Disappearance never reported by Mother

Inferred conclusion: The Mother is guilty of premeditated murder.


I asked if it accurately represented the poster's (Dot's) position. I don't yet know that it does or does not. Nevertheless, the inferred conclusion is not valid. Rather, it represents a logical fallacy.

Specifically, that logical fallacy is called the "four-terms fallacy". For the conclusion (premeditated murder) is not distributed from either the major or the minor premise.


I could just as well have posted.

Major premise: All who flunk this course in applied logic are lazy.

Minor premise: You flunked this course.

Inferred Conclusion: You are good for nothing.

That too would represent a four-term logical fallacy, for the conclusion is not found in the premises; i.e., it's not validly distributed from or otherwise validly based from the premises in any way. It's logcally invalid.


HTH

Well,I guess I flunked AND I'm lazy,cuz I don't know,nor do I care ,what a categorical syllogism is :blowkiss:
 
  • #95
Or at the least, not presume more than what was stated. 'There was all that blood." That's their answer and we shouldn't require more.

Hypothetical here....a reporter asked me what conclude that Casey Anthony committed premeditated murder? my response "The Henkle Brand duct tape".

I guess when someone doesn't know the facts of the case that would seem like a really silly answer, don't ya think? One thing I "assumed" when the reporter asked me that question was that the reporter "knew" the facts of the case before asking me that question.

So, in the context of the conversation it made sense, but as a sound bite, it sounds ridiculous. KWIM
 
  • #96
You stayed away too long and were missed, btw. If you check out the legal procedures thread, you'll see that it's been agreed that due to a special exception listed in the instructions, although you're correct it's not a lio, she can still be convicted of fm.

The discussion starts here and you'll note all the verified lawyers that weighed in are in agreement on this point.

Thanks lin that clears it up for me then. They don't have to charge her with felony murder they can do it at trial if the evidence at trial supports felony murder. Very interesting. That and it's been upheld. Well answers that question then.
 
  • #97
by eliminating any other explanation,because anything else is not reasonable to me.....I'd say yes. But of course we all know many more facts in this case.
Yea...that "inferred conclusion" part has a whole lot more attached to it IMO as well. I could "infer" that Casey was responsible for her child's death by the circumstances set forth- 31 days, no report...etc., but the aspect of premeditation comes from a whole different area for me...the scientific evidence. This is one very sick individual we have here. I don't think we yet know just HOW sick she is. Not insanity mind you, just pure evil.
 
  • #98
The minor premise being......When duct tape is applied over a persons mouth and nose in this manner it is without a doubt something that is likely to suffocate someone.

That's my logic of the premeditation element!

Being that I find these facts, each seperately, to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, the combination of the totality of these facts lead me to the logical conclusion that the crime was committed beyond any reasonable doubt!


We do not know of proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the tape went on before Caylee died. What proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee was suffocated by the tape?
 
  • #99
Well,I guess I flunked AND I'm lazy,cuz I don't know,nor do I care ,what a categorical syllogism is :blowkiss:

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  • #100
(Gold star )

Now I will change the minor premise, which changes the argument.


Major premise: Jim always wears a cowboy hat.

Minor premise: Only cowboys wear cowboy hats.

Inferred Conclusion: Jim is a cowboy.



If the revised premises are true, is the conclusion now necessarily valid and reliable?
Your minor premise is out of sync, too, for me. Am I supposed to be looking at this illogically? Because logically I would never presume that only cowboys wear cowboy hats.
 
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