Reasonable doubt-Jury instructions and More #2

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  • #261
KC won't get an individualized or "subjective" standard when it comes to comparing to the ordinary standard of care. That is a reasonable person standard. BTW, what do you think happened, JBean. I'd be interested. :)
Exactly and I totally agree.

As far as what happened,I am waiting for the whole CIC.
 
  • #262
So far they've indicated nothing else.

with the exception of the arguments laid out by the first DP attorney on the defense. One of his arguments, IIRC, was that it may have been an accident.
Of course ,he's not with the defense any more,is he?:rolleyes:
 
  • #263
Exactly and I totally agree.

As far as what happened,I am waiting for the whole CIC.

What does CIC mean, I read it to mean "Cause I Could"....am I right?
 
  • #264
  • #265
This is very important information. Plus, it would be extremely unusual to use it for a non-industrial, household cleaner. But, it is more commonly known to be used to make people unconscious -- like for surgery. IMHO it was misused here to "babysit." Problem was, it is short acting and to make it longer acting -- like for a whole night -- well, there would have to be a way to hold a chloroform soaked cloth to the mouth and nose. Hummm. :furious:

That's a very good possibility. The tape didn't come off because it was attached to the hair. Clothe would have rotted away from being wet. All the water could very well have washed it away just as it did the adhesive on the sticker. Could that be the fibers from the tape? Makes a good case for premeditation.
 
  • #266
That's a very good possibility. The tape didn't come off because it was attached to the hair. Clothe would have rotted away from being wet. All the water could very well have washed it away just as it did the adhesive on the sticker. Could that be the fibers from the tape? Makes a good case for premeditation.

Good thinking about the cloth, but I am even thinking it may have not been cloth. How about Paper towel?
 
  • #267
Yes, that too. Anything that would have disintegrated from the tape and skin unlike the adhesive attached to the hair. I strongly believe that she could have used duct tape for bondage but we'll never know. Lucky to get as much evidence as they did considering the conditions.
 
  • #268
What does CIC mean, I read it to mean "Cause I Could"....am I right?
"Case in Chief" in a criminal prosecution is the case the prosecution will put on when proving the case. It consists of the evidence offered by the prosecution, the testimony of the witnesses called by the prosecution and the witness answers to the prosecution's rebuttal questions after defense has cross examined the witnesses called by the prosecution.
 
  • #269
  • #270
Snipped
Some evidence that supports accidental drowning (not necessarily exhaustive):

1)The high levels of chloroform found in the trunk. It's possible that this was the result of early stage decomposition in very oxygen-deprived conditions (enclosed car trunk plus trash bags) combined with ingestion of, and saturation in, chlorinated water.

2)The hair mat. This may have been the result of wet, chlorine soaked hair drying in a clump under the skull after the body was wrapped and laid down in the trunk.

3)No shoes or socks found in the car or with the body.

4)The T shirt. This appears to have completely rotted away, except for some 'stitching' and a label. Some fragments of a 'light coloured' fabric were found adhered to the shoulder blade and arm bone. I think it possible that a chlorine soaked pink cotton T shirt might well fade to a 'light' colour, stick to and remain present in some form on areas of the body that are pressing down/lying on it (shoulder/upper arm), but completely disintegrate otherwise. The lettering may have survived because it was a different and tougher fabric weave/structure. Chlorinated water rots fabrics - Fact. (Just see what happens to your swimwear if you don't ever rinse the chlorine out!). Most garments/fabrics would not disintegrate to this extent after just 6 months, even if they'd been subject to adverse weather conditions.

5) The shorts - The trunk bones and upper leg bones were found in a different location from the shorts. This suggests to me that the shorts were not on the body, otherwise I think it more probable that they would have been dragged to the same location with these body parts. The report suggests that this movement by animal activity must have occurred when there was sufficient soft tissue present to hold the trunk and upper limbs together, so it's reasonable to assume that if the shorts were on the body they would have been moved with it. The shorts were also in fairly good condition - unlike the T shirt.

If a small child wanted to get into a pool by themselves, they would most probably take off their shorts/trousers/skirt and socks and shoes. If they are used to wearing a diaper in the pool this would probably be left on. A T shirt on the other hand is not always an easy garment for a toddler to wriggle out of, plus they may be used to keeping one on sometimes for added sun protection.

6)The fatty acids found on the paper towels. These acids appear not to be from the 'decomp fluid' that caused the stain on the trunk carpet, so it's likely that the towels were not used to try and clean that up. The acids are from body fat and suggest the presence of adipocere (grave wax). This substance is normally present in bodies that have either been buried in cool soil or kept in wet or moist conditions. Apparently bodies kept in plastic bags may be more prone to the formation of this substance, but I have seen another article that suggests that it doesn't appear in very warm conditions, so it's possible that although the bags kept the body warm (so limiting formation) the contents of the bag were wet (so creating the conditions for formation).

7) The evidence that the yard gate was found left open on 17 June and the pool ladder left in situ. This evidence carries some weight because CA's work colleague has testified that CA told her about it just days after it was apparently discovered - i.e. several weeks before anyone knew that Caylee was not with KC.
Assume you are correct and a 2 year old was left with unfettered access to an above ground pool with the ladder installed and no barrier or fencing. She therefore lacked adult supervision that would violate the ordinary standard of care. Since she was solely in KC's custody at that time, KC, as mother and sole custodian, would be the one criminally responsible. It would not be an excusable homicide since that requires the defendant to have met the ordinary standard of care. No reasonable person leaves a 2 year old unattended with unfettered access to a swimming pool period.
 
  • #271
Assume you are correct and a 2 year old was left with unfettered access to an above ground pool with the ladder installed and no barrier or fencing. She therefore lacked adult supervision that would violate the ordinary standard of care. Since she was solely in KC's custody at that time, KC, as mother and sole custodian, would be the one criminally responsible. It would not be an excusable homicide since that requires the defendant to have met the ordinary standard of care. No reasonable person leaves a 2 year old unattended with unfettered access to a swimming pool period.

Precisely, and....I hate to sound like a broken record, but since it happened here AGAIN a week ago..Here is what a person does/did when they left a 2 year old w/ unlimited access to a pool....A 2 year old girl and her 3 year old brother both drowned in the family pool while the grandparents were "watching" them. It's horrifying to contemplate the level of neglect. The grandparents had not seen or heard the children in over 20 MINUTES. Disgusting. But, the point I make is that though they neglected these children, compromised their safety, and both children were pulled from the pool by the grandfather unresponsive.....they still called 911! It flies in the face of reason that Caylee could have died in a pool drowning and KC didn't call 911. People don't do that. Even when they are grossly negligent and terrified, they call for help!
 
  • #272
Precisely, and....I hate to sound like a broken record, but since it happened here AGAIN a week ago..Here is what a person does/did when they left a 2 year old w/ unlimited access to a pool....A 2 year old girl and her 3 year old brother both drowned in the family pool while the grandparents were "watching" them. It's horrifying to contemplate the level of neglect. The grandparents had not seen or heard the children in over 20 MINUTES. Disgusting. But, the point I make is that though they neglected these children, compromised their safety, and both children were pulled from the pool by the grandfather unresponsive.....they still called 911! It flies in the face of reason that Caylee could have died in a pool drowning and KC didn't call 911. People don't do that. Even when they are grossly negligent and terrified, they call for help!

First rule of child supervision: When they are quiet, get worried.
 
  • #273
In this thread but part #1, spillage from attorneys representing parties to this case included "....to put her away for life" and "There is circumstantial evidence of a possible homicide", both quotes from Jose B. We don't want to forget, though, that Ts. Luka talked at the end of the year about the fact that "at that time we didn't know who was responsible for Caylee's death." That is a big one. He knows, therefore Lee knows and this was before the memorial and the gushing praise & protests of love for his sister.
 
  • #274
In this thread but part #1, spillage from attorneys representing parties to this case included "....to put her away for life" and "There is circumstantial evidence of a possible homicide", both quotes from Jose B. We don't want to forget, though, that Ts. Luka talked at the end of the year about the fact that "at that time we didn't know who was responsible for Caylee's death." That is a big one. He knows, therefore Lee knows and this was before the memorial and the gushing praise & protests of love for his sister.
MN knew alsoIMO.He was just more careful.
 
  • #275
I see your point. Accidental drowning (or whatever) and then a cover up?

Hey that's a novel idea lol :idea: never would've thought of that lol ;) :blowkiss:
:parrot:
 
  • #276
Do you have children? The no shoes/socks not being found doesn't mean a lot to me, even if it's correct. Mine used to take theirs off constantly. Nor does your assertion about a 2 year old partially undressing before getting into a pool unsupervised. I've never seen that happen. I have seen kids get in fully clothed and I've seen them strip naked. I haven't seen a 2 year old calmly remove socks, shoes, shorts and pile them neatly to the side. (I know you didn't imply that but that's kind of the picture that comes to my mind.) You make a lot of assumptions and offer a lot of possibilities there but where they become thoroughly unreasonable to me is when put in context with the other evidence.

IF we accept the premise of an accidental drowning initially, it is belied by the false exculpatory and other statements to avoid detection/prosecution that may be used to show consciousness of guilt. It is belied by placing the duct tape of the airways of the child prior to decomposition. It is belied by KC's behavior both before and after the alleged drowning. It is belied by KC sitting in jail for going on a year without speaking up about it. Perhaps to no one but me, but it is strongly, very, very strongly belied by failing to place the 'mama' doll with Caylee's remains.

The accidental drowning theory fails from the onset as in total contradiction to the sworn statement of the only known person who was there -- KC herself.

(respectfully snipped) I do have children--four--and am a grandmother as well. No one suggested neatly folded and Devon's theory has both a ring of familiarity and is entirely plausible from my experience w toddlers. This is the same age as a granddaughter of mine currently, and close to the age of my youngest daughter at the time. I can easily envision this scenario (ie partially undressing, removing shoes etc) it makes as much sense as anything.

Yes consciousness of guilt on some level but of what? There is more than one level of culpability. Because you or I could muster courage to confess to a lesser act of negligence does not mean that KC, raised the way she was in that present state of fear, panic and/or defensiveness, possessed the composure to admit a lesser degree of responsibility. It may not have been the State, but the detection and prosecution of her own mother which posed the greatest threat to KC's narcissistic, underdeveloped and immature conscience. And in order to deny any responsibility whatsoever, it may have become necessary in her mind, her twisted psyche, to deflect even the blame for negligence. Anyone who does not comprehend this possibility has never known a desperate, self-preserving, blameshifting young "adult" (using loosely here) with their back against the wall. I have known such a person. She is 21 years old with a three year-old. We just didn't have a pool in our backyard eg, nor an enabling or excusing parent... but had the same circumstances occurred I can not honestly say how she would've reacted. I want to believe the grace in her life could permit her to own up to an act of negligence and spare her the "need" to cover up or stage something so elaborate. Permissiveness--which only increases license-- is not the same thing as grace, which holds a child accountable but does not shame or condemn.

Devon and Wudge are the only ones NOT making a truckload of assumptions here. KC's statements belie reality... but conflict no less and no more or are equally contradictory to the kidnapping story as to an accidental scenario.

Jbean c'mon admit it, you know you've missed me lolol ;) :floorlaugh:

:blowkiss:
:parrot:
 
  • #277
(respectfully snipped) I do have children--four--and am a grandmother as well. No one suggested neatly folded and Devon's theory has both a ring of familiarity and is entirely plausible from my experience w toddlers. This is the same age as a granddaughter of mine currently, and close to the age of my youngest daughter at the time. I can easily envision this scenario (ie partially undressing, removing shoes etc) it makes as much sense as anything.

Yes consciousness of guilt on some level but of what? There is more than one level of culpability. Because you or I could muster courage to confess to a lesser act of negligence does not mean that KC, raised the way she was in that present state of fear, panic and/or defensiveness, possessed the composure to admit a lesser degree of responsibility. It may not have been the State, but the detection and prosecution of her own mother which posed the greatest threat to KC's narcissistic, underdeveloped and immature conscience. And in order to deny any responsibility whatsoever, it may have become necessary in her mind, her twisted psyche, to deflect even the blame for negligence. Anyone who does not comprehend this possibility has never known a desperate, self-preserving, blameshifting young "adult" (using loosely here) with their back against the wall. I have known such a person. She is 21 years old with a three year-old. We just didn't have a pool in our backyard eg, nor an enabling or excusing parent... but had the same circumstances occurred I can not honestly say how she would've reacted. I want to believe the grace in her life could permit her to own up to an act of negligence and spare her the "need" to cover up or stage something so elaborate. Permissiveness--which only increases license-- is not the same thing as grace, which holds a child accountable but does not shame or condemn.

Devon and Wudge are the only ones NOT making a truckload of assumptions here. KC's statements belie reality... but conflict no less and no more or are equally contradictory to the kidnapping story as to an accidental scenario.

Jbean c'mon admit it, you know you've missed me lolol ;) :floorlaugh:

:blowkiss:
:parrot:

Sorry.. anyone who can callously rob her disabled grandfather's account to buy herself goodies, then lie and scream obscenities back at her parents when confronted is not a timid broken blossom.

KC has never lost touch with reality. She is, and was, oriented to person, place, time, and situation. That she is "afraid." is belied by the fact that she has taken on both GA and CA, head to head, on several situations. Remember GA and his "f---ing gas cans." And, CA challenging hjer for answers, then backing down (at the jail).

KC has certainly not been confused by fear or panic in the many instances where she has robbed friends and family, then constructed a complex of lies. CA has had to pillage her 401K account to pay off KC's victims.

KC is a common-as-dirt sociopath. Hard as nails, manipulative and mendacious. She is very dangerous, because she could have another baby. She could also have a husband with a fat life insurance policy, when she needs cash.

She has never shown any signs/symptoms of shock or disorientation. Only anger, when her will is blocked.

I DO agree that she was overindulged. However, adults still have to choose to grow up, or not. She knew and knows what the penalties are for murder. She would happily and easily throw innocents under the bus for her crime.

IMHO, they only thing she has ever feared was getting caught.

The issue here is that a two-year old baby died at the hands of her mother. There is a mountain of evidence that will prove that. That baby was helpless, and entirely dependent on the one who took her life. There is also the danger that is she gets off, she could do it, again.

And, if KC deserves sympathy, why not SP? Why not all others who kill their kids? Their spouses?

No sympathy here.
 
  • #278
1) No, honey. Chlorinated H2O is NOT of sufficient concentration to produce a high level of chlorine in the trunk, and, 2) Chlorine is not found in any significant level in human decomp.

I never suggested that chlorinated water is sufficiently concentrated to produce a high level of chlorine in the trunk, neither did I refer to chlorine levels in human decomp.

I was referring to a possibility that in a case where a human corpse may have been immersed in chlorinated water prior to death, and where the water may have been ingested, and where the corpse may have been subsequently wrapped up still dressed in clothing that had also been immersed, this may have had an effect on the amount of chloroform found in the trunk, which is a natural product of human decomp. especially in the early stages. The level of chloroform found, although described as being present in 'high' levels, was only actually 'high' in terms of what is 'normally' expected in early stage decomp.

Do you know of any forensic evidence that shows that where a body is decomposing in such circumstances there could not be a higher level of chloroform produced than is 'normal'?

P.S. Please don't call me 'honey' - whether or not it is intended to be, I personally find the context in which it was used to be condescending.
 
  • #279
Assume you are correct and a 2 year old was left with unfettered access to an above ground pool with the ladder installed and no barrier or fencing. She therefore lacked adult supervision that would violate the ordinary standard of care. Since she was solely in KC's custody at that time, KC, as mother and sole custodian, would be the one criminally responsible. It would not be an excusable homicide since that requires the defendant to have met the ordinary standard of care. No reasonable person leaves a 2 year old unattended with unfettered access to a swimming pool period.

I never suggested that such a situation would be excusable homicide, just as I never suggested that a killing during a rage episode would be. If a child drowned or met with some other accident whilst in the care of a person deemed to have a duty to protect then the question would be one of legal culpability. If culpable negligence was proved then a conviction for manslaughter could follow.

As for killing in a rage, isn't that what the charges of 2nd or 3rd degree murder are supposed to cover?
 
  • #280
(respectfully snipped) I do have children--four--and am a grandmother as well. No one suggested neatly folded and Devon's theory has both a ring of familiarity and is entirely plausible from my experience w toddlers. This is the same age as a granddaughter of mine currently, and close to the age of my youngest daughter at the time. I can easily envision this scenario (ie partially undressing, removing shoes etc) it makes as much sense as anything.

Yes consciousness of guilt on some level but of what? There is more than one level of culpability. Because you or I could muster courage to confess to a lesser act of negligence does not mean that KC, raised the way she was in that present state of fear, panic and/or defensiveness, possessed the composure to admit a lesser degree of responsibility. It may not have been the State, but the detection and prosecution of her own mother which posed the greatest threat to KC's narcissistic, underdeveloped and immature conscience. And in order to deny any responsibility whatsoever, it may have become necessary in her mind, her twisted psyche, to deflect even the blame for negligence. Anyone who does not comprehend this possibility has never known a desperate, self-preserving, blameshifting young "adult" (using loosely here) with their back against the wall. I have known such a person. She is 21 years old with a three year-old. We just didn't have a pool in our backyard eg, nor an enabling or excusing parent... but had the same circumstances occurred I can not honestly say how she would've reacted. I want to believe the grace in her life could permit her to own up to an act of negligence and spare her the "need" to cover up or stage something so elaborate. Permissiveness--which only increases license-- is not the same thing as grace, which holds a child accountable but does not shame or condemn.

Devon and Wudge are the only ones NOT making a truckload of assumptions here. KC's statements belie reality... but conflict no less and no more or are equally contradictory to the kidnapping story as to an accidental scenario.

Jbean c'mon admit it, you know you've missed me lolol ;) :floorlaugh:

:blowkiss:
:parrot:

Thank you Kiki! :blowkiss:
 
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