Reasonable Doubt

[AlishaGail]

I agree.

An accident is possible. It IS possible that Casey could be in some sort of alternate reality from the shock of a horrible accident.

I am sure the defense can get put on a good case for how post trauma people can zone out to avoid thinking about horrific events. It is a fact that some abuse victims do it to survive.

I am convinced because Casey did not take the immunity deal that Caylee was deliberately killed.

But, I don't think that is even evidence I would be able to take into account if I were a juror.

Exactly. I believe in the death penalty and harsh sentences for criminals who have been proven guilty. But I do hope I am not on a jury for a case where even the slightest doubt exists, because I could not say they are guilty without enough proof to convince my logic as well as my instinct. And I'm glad that our system is set up to insure that this is the way it's usually carried out... Though I do believe in my heart that Casey is guilty of a worse crime than neglect or manslaughter, even if it was an accident and a bad reaction... IMO she should have come forward by now with the truth and led us to Caylee's body. But that's my heart, not the law, and the law can only punish for certain crimes. :/
Lisha

 

[kathyn2]

There is no probable doubt in my mind that Caylee is dead at the hand of Casey. However there is no way to prove it is premeditated. I could not vote for that and I don't think there would ever be proof of that (unless they found the body and she was poisoned or something). At this juncture I would vote 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. I do not believe she died by accident. If anything it would have been by severe neglect (ie, leaving her in the trunk of the car or alone in the pool) which equals at least manslaughter.

 

[Jolynna]

You misunderstand. I realize that LE not ready to speak in absolutes. I'm saying that IF the test results turn out not to be conclusive when it comes to trial it might raise reasonable doubt in my eyes. At this point we really don't know.

I think we can be confident that the tests are conclusive now.

LE would not say anything if that wasn't the case.

IMO

 

[Chilly Willy]

If the tests aren't conclusive, I don't think we will see other charges.

I'm not so sure. They were able to get a conviction against Scott Peterson with no physical evidence except a piece of Laci's hair in his fishing pliers. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence against Casey. I think she will eventually face other charges. What I'm curious to see is what those charges will be. Accidential death? They have nothing to indicate that the death was the result of an accident. Murder one? Is there evidence of premediation? Something in between? Based on what? It's going to be interesting.

 

[jbar]

I think there is evidence of premeditation. I do not think there is evidence to support an accident. JMO

 

[Chilly Willy]

I think we can be confident that the tests are conclusive now.

LE would not say anything if that wasn't the case.

IMO

You're probably right, but why haven't they changed the status from a missing person investigation to a homicide investigation?

 

[kathyn2]

Yep, thats true. scott peterson got the death penalty just on a piece of hair. The rest was all circumstancial and there is no doubt in my mind he was guilty. I am convinced Casey is guilty too. BUT I don't know that it was premeditated.

 

[impatientredhead]

I think that right now and perhaps forever, it would be impossible to get Casey on premeditated murder. Manslaughter and perhaps abuse of a corpse, depending on further evidence found, would be possible, but I don't think that premeditated murder would be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Do you feel this way because without the body they can't determine cause of death? If that is the reason, there have been 200+ cases tried without a body, many with first degree charges, with no body and cause of death.

Scott Peterson's case would be another example, the bodys did wash up but cause of death undetermined. They argued motive and behavior afterwards.

Casey's behavior afterwards is going to be a major problem for the defense.

Doesn't report her child missing.
Hinders the investigation when the police open the case.
The pictures out dancing.
She was at Fusian every Friday night.
All of the friends who will testify that they saw Casey and she never mentioned Caylee, she was fine.
We are 80 plus days and she still hasn't given one statement that would lead to her child.

 

[jbar]

IMO because not all of the tests are back, and they do not want to jump the gun. See post #11

 

[Chilly Willy]

I think there is evidence of premeditation. I do not think there is evidence to support an accident. JMO

I'd be very interested in hearing what evidence of premedition you see. I've thought about it and am having a difficult time coming up with anything. Maybe we could start a thread for the subject?

 

[poco]

Given the right prosecutor for the State, I believe could definitely be convicted of murder 1.

You don't lose your kid - you don't NOT KNOW where you 2 year old is.

IMO she is automotically responsible without a reasonable doubt because that child is missing - produce a child or do the time!

 

[jbar]

Good idea, I would like that discussion!

 

[Chilly Willy]

Do you feel this way because without the body they can't determine cause of death? If that is the reason, there have been 200+ cases tried without a body, many with first degree charges, with no body and cause of death.

Scott Peterson's case would be another example, the bodys did wash up but cause of death undetermined. They argued motive and behavior afterwards.

Casey's behavior afterwards is going to be a major problem for the defense.

Doesn't report her child missing.
Hinders the investigation when the police open the case.
The pictures out dancing.
She was at Fusian every Friday night.
All of the friends who will testify that they saw Casey and she never mentioned Caylee, she was fine.
We are 80 plus days and she still hasn't given one statement that would lead to her child.

There was a lot of evidence supporting premediation in the Scott Peterson case, including him telling people that he'd lost his wife before she was even missing and that he would be spending his first holidays without her. He also told Amber that he'd be free to spend more time with her in January, a month after his wife disappeared. He looked up tidal currents on his computer and purchased the boat that he used to dump her body. He made anchors to weigh her body down before she disappeared, etc. etc. etc.

What you have listed is not evidence of premediation as it all happened after Caylee disappeared. Can we think of anything that shows Casey planned to do away with Caylee?

 

[impatientredhead]

There was a lot of evidence supporting premediation in the Scott Peterson case, including him telling people that he'd lost his wife before she was even missing and that he would be spending his first holidays without her. He also told Amber that he'd be free to spend more time with her in January, a month after his wife disappeared. He looked up tidal currents on his computer and purchased the boat that he used to dump her body. He made anchors to weigh her body down before she disappeared, etc. etc. etc.

What you have listed is not evidence of premediation as it all happened after Caylee disappeared. Can we think of anything that shows Casey planned to do away with Caylee?

We know she hid her pregnancy.
We know that she wanted to give her away.
We know her and Cindy were battling each other about parenting issues.
We know she told her friends that she couldn't go out as much as she wanted.

Premeditation can happen in the moment you decide to kill someone, it does not have to be a planned out for days in advance event.

 

[jbar]

SHe also looked up sinkholes on her computer...

But, I started a thread on premeditation vs accident - check it out!

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70133

 

[Jolynna]

Given the right prosecutor for the State, I believe could definitely be convicted of murder 1.

You don't lose your kid - you don't NOT KNOW where you 2 year old is.

IMO she is automotically responsible without a reasonable doubt because that child is missing - produce a child or do the time!

A rich guy in Texas with an outstanding lawyer got off after chopping up and disposing of the body.

He said he was scared and panicked.

I think it is very possible for reasonable people to believe that this formerly "loving" (see the pics and remember she breastfed) mother witnessed a horrific accident and "freaked out". Then the mother was in shock and partied to avoid thinking of the traumatic event.

"Take a look at this girl, folks, she's goofy. You can see she isn't right. It is obvious shock" I'd say if I were a defense lawyer.

I think a legitimate case for an accident could be made and that proving more would NOT be a slam dunk.

IMO

PS: I think she is guilty of more but am not sure the evidence proves it.

 

[ks1]

I was a juror on a double murder trial and let me tell you, we went over and over what constitutes "reasonable doubt". In our case, a tiny drop of one of the victims blood was enough for us to deliver a guilty verdict, though the defense tried to get us to believe that there was another person involved that committed the actual murder and his client was just in the vehicle (that person could never be produced). I think that a hair with evidence of decomposition would not be enough as it has been stated that a hair yanked from someones head that is alive with skin attached to it would show the same signs of decomposition as a hair from a deceased person, the defense will bring up all of the cases where the "air" tests have been inaccurate which in my mind, these two things would constitute reasonable doubt. Other than those two things, they have no real evidence.

 

[Chilly Willy]

We know she hid her pregnancy.
We know that she wanted to give her away.
We know her and Cindy were battling each other about parenting issues.
We know she told her friends that she couldn't go out as much as she wanted.

Premeditation can happen in the moment you decide to kill someone, it does not have to be a planned out for days in advance event.

Good points, however many young mothers experience those same things and don't kill their children.

 

[impatientredhead]

Good points, however many young mothers experience those same things and don't kill their children.

and Scott Peterson wasn't the first guy to say he was a widower when he wasn't. If you are looking for a smoking gun I don't think it will be found in this case.

 

[Cagney]

I think that with the evidence that has been made public, manslaughter won't be hard to prove.
I think that the evidence that has been made public, compounded with whatever LE is holding as their ace in the hole plus anything further they may find- premeditation will not be hard to prove. If they find a body I can see first degree murder w/ the death penalty on the table.