Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

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  • #281
I watched my mom paint our house indoor and out, time after time, and she never once got paint on her chest area that would have been on her nipples if they hadn't been covered. She would have had to press herself up against the wet wall of paint to do so.

Had your mother just been told a child she was watching would never walk or talk again, and was she in a state where she was so upset she was taking her own life?

I would imagine that makes a difference in how neat one is while painting their suicide note on a door. IMO
 
  • #282
Just curious - in the hours and up to Rebecca's death was it reported anywhere as to what she said happened regarding Max's accident? Like what did she tell Jonah, her family, and/or LE (if known)?
Or was it a situation where she and her sister were in a different part of the house and therefore did not see what happened at all? They had to kind of guess, judging from where he landed and the chandelier broken on the floor that he had to have fallen from upstairs?
I know this question has nothing to do with the civil trial. I'm just trying to get in Rebecca's head a little more. I know that if I was responsible for a six year old child and I wasn't watching him and a very serious (serious enough to call 911, perform cpr, had a long fall where a chandelier actually fell down as well) fall occurred - I would be beyond devastated. I know accidents happen.

I don't know if Rebecca took her own life or not. But I do think regardless of what she knew about Max's condition she had to have felt just devastated and probably felt 'like it was her fault.' I only say that because I can see how anyone would feel that way especially immediately afterwards...being the caretaker of a young six year old whom you're close to and love and he left home in an ambulance because of a serious fall from a 2nd story and is being hospitalized. Given as time went by Rebecca would have most likely came to terms with this being an accident and she could work on forgiving herself. But she did not have time, imo, to process all of these serious emotions in the time before her death. IMO, I don't think she was in the head space to chalk it up to "it was an accident. it's not my fault."

It had just happened. She was in shock. I believe she cared for and loved Max and I believe she blamed herself. Who wouldn't? Especially the immediate aftermath.

Even not knowing he would pass, imo, Rebecca had to have thought this was no small 'oops' accident. Regardless, if Rebecca knew Max's prognosis was grave or not, IMO she knew how serious it was. Again, I'm not saying she took her life at all. Shockingly, I'm still on the fence, completely in the middle. (I usually lean in all cases. ha!) I'm trying to remain open minded while I catch up with all the facts/info like most of you guys all have.

I haven't read anywhere how Rebecca explained Max's accident so I'm just curious if anything more was stated besides "I was in a different room/part of the house, so I don't know what happened." Even if that was what she said - I would still feel enormous responsibility because I'm the adult/caretaker and I'd constantly be thinking in the immediate aftermath "I should have been watching him better. I shouldn't have left him upstairs alone" ..etc. Those are just MY examples. I have a five year old daughter and we have a two story house. I watch her like a hawk and I *still* block off the stairs so she can't go up and down without me bc during this age they don't realize what can happen if they do x, y or z.

Again, I'm not saying she took her life and I'm not saying she wasn't murdered. I'm just curious if it was reported anywhere what she said about Max's accident.

MOO. JMO, Etc.
 
  • #283
She said she was in the bathroom, heard a crash, ran out and found him in the foyer.
 
  • #284
<modsnip>I said, once again, that “No, it just may have been the first tube she tried to use was almost empty Perhaps she had to go find a second tube, The rest of the message says to me that a painter did it. AFAIK, Adam has never been accused of being a painter.

I do not agree with you that a person who never painted did the message. The remaining letters show brush strokes of a painter, imo.

Using a brush results in brushstrokes. There is nothing particularly painterly about them in this case.
 
  • #285
I am hoping the jury will consider these factors...

The complete &#8216;overkill&#8217; scenario of an elaborately hand and foot bound, gagged body as a suggested suicide

The medical evidence of one of the worlds most renowned forensic pathologists of blunt force trauma and strangulation indicated in the cause of death

The known emotional stressors in the last interactions between RZ and AS

AS being the last known person to see RZ alive

RZ&#8217;s body being discovered by AS

AS unfettered and private access to RZ during her last hours of life

AS having reason to be upset with RZ ( the serious and life threatening injury to his nephew whilst in her care)

AS unfettered and private access to the scene of death

The complete lack of DNA and fingerprint evidence in numerous expected situations

The lack of alibi for AS

The vehement denial of knot tying ability by a professional tugboat captain who has passed proficiently examinations in knot tying

The inconsistencies in the 911 call and AS course of action

The discrepancies between AS depositions and testimony ...

These are all credible, powerful situational and relational elements worthy of important consideration.



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Phenomenal Lezah.

One more point I would like to add to that which is that Rebecca's cellphone is very good corroborating evidence that she was incapacitated or dead long before Jonah's call. She didn't answer the last text and she didn't answer the last call. Neither did she answer the door. Now putting myself in the shoes of a juror, I could accept that she might have been in the shower for one but not both. Even if she didn't want to see Nina it would be simple to text it's not convenient tonight. It's more credible that she was unable to use her phone than that she chose not to text a reply and chose not to pick up the call. The double incidence is what makes it stand out a mile.
 
  • #286
Using a brush results in brushstrokes. There is nothing particularly painterly about them in this case.
Anyone would think it was a work of art. :giggle:
 
  • #287
Phenomenal Lezah.

One more point I would like to add to that which is that Rebecca's cellphone is very good corroborating evidence that she was incapacitated or dead long before Jonah's call. She didn't answer the last text and she didn't answer the last call. Neither did she answer the door. Now putting myself in the shoes of a juror, I could accept that she might have been in the shower for one but not both. Even if she didn't want to see Nina it would be simple to text it's not convenient tonight. It's more credible that she was unable to use her phone than that she chose not to text a reply and chose not to pick up the call. The double incidence is what makes it stand out a mile.

It also could be framed as very good collaborating evidence that she had slipped into a suicidal depression where she no longer cared to deal with anyone in this life.
 
  • #288
Remember Lana Clarkson? the defense tried to convince the jury she killed herself. If I recall, the first jury bought it, the second jury did not. Even if I believed that Rebecca was depressed, who would kill themselves in this bizarre macabre way? it does not make sense and never will to me. There are a myriad of ways one can commit suicide that are much simpler and less painful on the human body.
 
  • #289
I watched my mom paint our house indoor and out, time after time, and she never once got paint on her chest area that would have been on her nipples if they hadn't been covered. She would have had to press herself up against the wet wall of paint to do so.

Several years ago, I was painting the door of my house and happened to think of this case. I did an experiment to see how easy it would be to drip paint on your chest. I'm about the same height as RZ.

Standing at a normal distance from the door, painting above your head, it's pretty much impossible. Paint drips straight down from the bristles of the brush and lands either on the door or a fraction of an inch away from it. Most people stand with their arm partially extended when they paint.

The best I could come up with is that you'd have to be standing almost with your toes touching the door for paint to land on your chest area. Also noteworthy, this close to the door you can no longer see what you're painting above your head. You have to lean back out again to view the surface you're painting.

So, no. It's only possible if you're standing uncomfortably close to the door with your arm bent in an awkward position. Iff you do paint in that pose, you can't see what you're painting. Your face is just a couple of inches from the door.
 
  • #290
AS has the right to defend himself against accusations of rape in murder in court especially after being tried in the court of public opinion for years, as were Dina and Nina. To that end, all his attorney--and their attorneys--did was access the same LE discovery that the Plaintiff had access to. The Plaintiff choose to have this private history become public and that is their choice. But it is unfair to blame AZ for defending himself from the salacious accusations of rape, torture and murder. JMO

FWIW I never thought Dina or Nina had anything to do with Rebecca's death.

Dina, who is closer to this case than any of us strangers on the internet, personally knows all the players and who has seen all of the evidence since she was party to the WDS for awhile believes Rebecca was murdered. She also does not believe Rebecca had anything to do with Max's death.

Just saying.
 
  • #291
Remember Lana Clarkson? the defense tried to convince the jury she killed herself. If I recall, the first jury bought it, the second jury did not. Even if I believed that Rebecca was depressed, who would kill themselves in this bizarre macabre way? it does not make sense and never will to me. There are a myriad of ways one can commit suicide that are much simpler and less painful on the human body.

You're so right! The defense was terrible in that case, making such derogatory allegations about the victim who was no longer there to defend herself. So horrible they did that to defend a man who had a frighteningly violent history of beating, raping and holding guns on women while holding them captive.

Yes, it's the same thing in this situation. It must be the victim's fault because a relative of a wealthy scion would never kill a woman. American society has such an odd view of wealthy people, assuming financial success indicates some sort of moral superiority.
 
  • #292
Just curious - in the hours and up to Rebecca's death was it reported anywhere as to what she said happened regarding Max's accident? Like what did she tell Jonah, her family, and/or LE (if known)?
Or was it a situation where she and her sister were in a different part of the house and therefore did not see what happened at all? They had to kind of guess, judging from where he landed and the chandelier broken on the floor that he had to have fallen from upstairs?
I know this question has nothing to do with the civil trial. I'm just trying to get in Rebecca's head a little more. I know that if I was responsible for a six year old child and I wasn't watching him and a very serious (serious enough to call 911, perform cpr, had a long fall where a chandelier actually fell down as well) fall occurred - I would be beyond devastated. I know accidents happen.

I don't know if Rebecca took her own life or not. But I do think regardless of what she knew about Max's condition she had to have felt just devastated and probably felt 'like it was her fault.' I only say that because I can see how anyone would feel that way especially immediately afterwards...being the caretaker of a young six year old whom you're close to and love and he left home in an ambulance because of a serious fall from a 2nd story and is being hospitalized. Given as time went by Rebecca would have most likely came to terms with this being an accident and she could work on forgiving herself. But she did not have time, imo, to process all of these serious emotions in the time before her death. IMO, I don't think she was in the head space to chalk it up to "it was an accident. it's not my fault."

It had just happened. She was in shock. I believe she cared for and loved Max and I believe she blamed herself. Who wouldn't? Especially the immediate aftermath.

Even not knowing he would pass, imo, Rebecca had to have thought this was no small 'oops' accident. Regardless, if Rebecca knew Max's prognosis was grave or not, IMO she knew how serious it was. Again, I'm not saying she took her life at all. Shockingly, I'm still on the fence, completely in the middle. (I usually lean in all cases. ha!) I'm trying to remain open minded while I catch up with all the facts/info like most of you guys all have.

I haven't read anywhere how Rebecca explained Max's accident so I'm just curious if anything more was stated besides "I was in a different room/part of the house, so I don't know what happened." Even if that was what she said - I would still feel enormous responsibility because I'm the adult/caretaker and I'd constantly be thinking in the immediate aftermath "I should have been watching him better. I shouldn't have left him upstairs alone" ..etc. Those are just MY examples. I have a five year old daughter and we have a two story house. I watch her like a hawk and I *still* block off the stairs so she can't go up and down without me bc during this age they don't realize what can happen if they do x, y or z.

Again, I'm not saying she took her life and I'm not saying she wasn't murdered. I'm just curious if it was reported anywhere what she said about Max's accident.

MOO. JMO, Etc.

Good questions and observations.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-defense-20180327-story.html


&#8220;Defense attorney David Elsberg asked Berman about reports that Zahau had been fondled by her school principal when she was young, and why that might put her at risk for suicide.
&#8220;Sexual abuse can be devastating to the abused,&#8221; Berman answered. &#8220;It produces a sense of shame, as if they are to blame; low self-esteem.&#8221;
Similarly, victims of domestic violence often feel anxious, potentially helpless and distrust in relationships, he said. Zahau reportedly suffered mental abuse, threats and attempted strangulation at the hands of her husband, before she divorced and met Jonah Shacknai.
The ex-husband, Neil Nalepa, testified in a videotaped deposition that Zahau had three affairs with other men during their marriage.
Also, writings found on Zahau&#8217;s phone showed her to have doubts about her relationship with Jonah Shacknai. Notes that &#8220;I feel this incredible emptiness,&#8221; and &#8220;I have no one to talk to&#8221; suggested depression, Berman said.
Topping off her state of mind was a fall that her boyfriend&#8217;s 6-year-old son, Max, suffered while Zahau was looking after him on July 11, 2011. He fell from a two-story stairwell landing at the house.&#8221;

How well do we know our adult children or siblings living far away from us?

We know only what they chose to confide.

When RZ wrote that she had &#8220;no one to talk to.&#8221;...it reminded me that the Z family has stated they had no idea of the shoplifting incident. Now if RZ were falsely accused, wouldn&#8217;t a loving family be your source of comfort? Likewise the Z family seemed to believe that RZ was a religious woman, living a life as dictated by her faith. Suicide is a religious no-no! But so is adultery...and RZ was a serial adulterer. Which was it..did they know about the affairs, the moving to get away from lovers...or did she tell them stories that kept them thinking she was a woman living by the tenets of her religion?

That night, did she feel she had anyone to confide in...or was she struggling to keep of a facade of what she thought her family expected of her? Obviously, she did not confide that for the &#8220;first time in her life&#8221; she wasn&#8217;t sleeping and crying all the time, because the Z family had stated emphatically that she was coping just fine.

There&#8217;s a real disparity between what the family says and what RZ writes herself. The Defense needs to hit that hard. Perhaps the investigators realized that the family didn&#8217;t know as much about RZ and her life as they assumed they did.

This shows that RZ was a very emotionally complicated woman. The attempts to deny the tremendous confluence of emotional stressors on her that night are ludicrous. Her lover had put their relationship on probation because his disrespectful children were influencing him. She only had about 6 weeks to go to the probation period ended. Did she know he was already romancing his current wife? I think most women can sense when a man begins to loose interest in her.

Contemplating another move...this time without Neil...any move is a stress. Starting over with no financial security from JS as Dina had received when discarded.

And to top it off...she and her sister being the only persons in the house when a child was gravely injured! It might be devastating enough...to know that DR would blame her and maybe in time the powerful JS would blame her...but the police were involved!! She&#8217;d already been through one minor interrogation over her jewelry theft. This time, what would they ask, what might they accuse her of, how would they treat her? And, my God...if the child DIED...and they had to rule out murder! No wonder she writes that her mind &#8220;is racing.&#8221;

All this as she sat alone. At first talking to her sister...who says she was &#8220;coping.&#8221; I think she didn&#8217;t always feel she could confide her pain and fear in her. &#8220;I have no one to talk to....&#8221; Perhaps the strain of pretending for this sister was another burden.

Finally, she just shut herself off...stopped answering texts and phones.

RZ was under colossal strain that night. A creative woman...she chose a creative way to die....leaving a parting sarcastic dig at her powerful, insensitive, lover.
 
  • #293
It also could be framed as very good collaborating evidence that she had slipped into a suicidal depression where she no longer cared to deal with anyone in this life.
I would be guided by the evidence which shows me her activities showed purpose and planning in spite of everything, preparing clothes and showering, nothing had changed in her life between Mary's call and Nina's text, and her dropped towel and missing sanitary protection is more indicative of a shocking intrusion at the entrance to the room than a change in mood.
 
  • #294
Using a brush results in brushstrokes. There is nothing particularly painterly about them in this case.

Also of note, there were no drip marks on the door or on the floor in front of it. Acrylic paint doesn't drip very easily.
 
  • #295
Also of note, there were no drip marks on the door or on the floor in front of it. Acrylic paint doesn't drip very easily.

It does if your brush is too wet. Takes experience to know how to prevent the dripping.
 
  • #296
I would be guided by the evidence which shows me her activities showed purpose and planning in spite of everything, preparing clothes and showering, nothing had changed in her life between Mary's call and Nina's text, and her dropped towel and missing sanitary protection is more indicative of a shocking intrusion at the entrance to the room than a change in mood.

I also find it interesting that she had her period. Hormones during one&#8217;s period can create havoc with a woman&#8217;s emotions.

I think RZ has just checked out of this world at that point. She didn&#8217;t care where blood dropped, whether being naked would shame her family, whether Adam needed her to run chores. She was just DONE. And she mockingly pointed out with her painted message...JS couldn&#8217;t &#8220;save&#8221;her to keep around in this miserable life till he discarded her.
 
  • #297
It does if your brush is too wet. Takes experience to know how to prevent the dripping.

But there were no drip marks on the door or the floor in front of it. If the paint had been very liquid, dripping from the brush, there would have been evidence of it dripping on the door or floor, too. I do a lot of painting in my own home, having painted a good part of the outside of my house as well as about 12 rooms inside it. I've overloaded brushes and painted with them wet. I know how paint drips, unfortunately.

It was also impossible to see what you're painting and be close enough for any paint to drip on your breasts. RZ was not a large breasted woman. She would have had to be standing nearly flush with the door to have paint drip onto her breasts. I tried it, it's not possible.
 
  • #298
Remember Lana Clarkson? the defense tried to convince the jury she killed herself. If I recall, the first jury bought it, the second jury did not. Even if I believed that Rebecca was depressed, who would kill themselves in this bizarre macabre way? it does not make sense and never will to me. There are a myriad of ways one can commit suicide that are much simpler and less painful on the human body.
The first time I saw the photos of her lying on the grass I was struck by her bent body position. In fact I believe it might have been my first ever post in the threads. I didn't think of a hogtie because I'm just not familiar with bondage, you learn something new on every case. But I did think she couldn't have been hanging straight when he cut her down and I asked myself if she had been hanging at all. And if she hadn't been in rigor when he put her down on the grass her knees would have been together and not fixed apart by a distance.

Then came I think it was Lezah's suggestion that she had been hogtied, and the evidence of the rope ends that met. Not too long, not too short, and the plaintiff expert said the reconstruction showed she was probably hogtied. When evidence corroborates what you can see in the photos it is a beautiful moment. The rope lengths and the body position being unrelated would have to be a miracle.

And then I noticed Adam said to the polygrapher "I hope to God she wasn't tied up" and that he had asked the detectives about that! In other words he had been on a fishing expedition to see if they could tell the rope had been cut apart. It made no sense that he wouldn't have known her hands were tied because he knew all about the rope, but it did make sense if he was talking about a hogtie.

To disregard all this corroborating evidence is to fail the objectivity test. Rope lengths, body position, and Adam's own words.
 
  • #299
It also could be framed as very good collaborating evidence that she had slipped into a suicidal depression where she no longer cared to deal with anyone in this life.
BBM: And that led to a ritualistic bizarre complex suicide including hogtieing herself? Not believable IMO.
 
  • #300
I also find it interesting that she had her period. Hormones during one&#8217;s period can create havoc with a woman&#8217;s emotions.

I think RZ has just checked out of this world at that point. She didn&#8217;t care where blood dropped, whether being naked would shame her family, whether Adam needed her to run chores. She was just DONE. And she mockingly pointed out with her painted message...JS couldn&#8217;t &#8220;save&#8221;her to keep around in this miserable life till he discarded her.
That doesn't address the points in my post. It doesn't have to, but I just noticed the diversion.
 
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