Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #4

[Betty P]

BBM: And that led to a ritualistic bizarre complex suicide? Not believable IMO.

Agree. Nor does it explain how she could have tied herself up, hopped out on the balcony, then paused to wipe fingerprints from the doorknob and door frame leading to the balcony before magically levitating herself over the railing.

 

[stmarysmead]

But there were no drip marks on the door or the floor in front of it. If the paint had been very liquid, dripping from the brush, there would have been evidence of it dripping on the door or floor, too. I do a lot of painting in my own home, having painted a good part of the outside of my house as well as about 12 rooms inside it. I've overloaded brushes and painted with them wet. I know how paint drips, unfortunately.

It was also impossible to see what you're painting and be close enough for any paint to drip on your breasts. RZ was not a large breasted woman. She would have had to be standing nearly flush with the door to have paint drip onto her breasts. I tried it, it's not possible.

I agree about finding the right mix of fluidity in acrylic paint. It’s the “inexperienced “ painter like AS would have been who would cause drips. No evidence given that he painted in acrylics before. RZ was the experienced painter...that’s why there are no drip marks.

I just did a project with a nine year old. I bought wooden eggs and we painted them. No drips but I got paint on my shirt.

I once had a craft business for seven years, selling folk art I painted in acrylics. I still have a collection of ruined clothing that I keep for painting. (The shirt was one of them.) My mind would be elsewhere and I’d touch my shirt with paint on my hands or I’d itch a mosquito bite and I’d have purple paint on myself.

She was naked , painting and brushed her hands on her body.

 

[stmarysmead]

That doesn't address the points in my post. It doesn't have to, but I just noticed the diversion.

No diversion. Just another point in our discussion. I read every one of your posts with interest, but I don’t expect you to answer and I’m certainly not requiring my post to be the only topic discussed.

I like your posts and even today find all of the murder posts to be interesting reads. I do want to understand a different pint of view.

 

[Betty P]

I agree about finding the right mix of fluidity in acrylic paint. It’s the “inexperienced “ painter like AS would have been who would cause drips. No evidence given that he painted in acrylics before. RZ was the experienced painter...that’s why there are no drip marks.

I just did a project with a nine year old. I bought wooden eggs and we painted them. No drips but I got paint on my shirt.

I once had a craft business for seven years, selling folk art I painted in acrylics. I still have a collection of ruined clothing that I keep for painting. (The shirt was one of them.) My mind would be elsewhere and I’d touch my shirt with paint on my hands or I’d itch a mosquito bite and I’d have purple paint on myself.

She was naked , painting and brushed her hands on her body.

How would she have gotten paint on the middle of her back?

 

[stmarysmead]

The first time I saw the photos of her lying on the grass I was struck by her bent body position. In fact I believe it might have been my first ever post in the threads. I didn't think of a hogtie because I'm just not familiar with bondage, you learn something new on every case. But I did think she couldn't have been hanging straight when he cut her down and I asked myself if she had been hanging at all. And if she hadn't been in rigor when he put her down on the grass her knees would have been together and not fixed apart by a distance.

Then came I think it was Lezah's suggestion that she had been hogtied, and the evidence of the rope ends that met. Not too long, not too short, and the plaintiff expert said the reconstruction showed she was probably hogtied. When evidence corroborates what you can see in the photos it is a beautiful moment. The rope lengths and the body position being unrelated would have to be a miracle.

And then I noticed Adam said to the polygrapher "I hope to God she wasn't tied up" and that he had asked the detectives about that! In other words he had been on a fishing expedition to see if they could tell the rope had been cut apart. It made no sense that he wouldn't have known her hands were tied because he knew all about the rope, but it did make sense if he was talking about a hogtie.

To disregard all this corroborating evidence is to fail the objectivity test. Rope lengths, body position, and Adam's own words.

It’s possible to draw different conclusions depending on what we focus on, what experts we believe. There is no video of what happening to RZ. So “objectivity” is in the eye of the beholder.

The jury has been given two very good presentations of what happened from both points of view. Even their decision will not “prove”anything...because if we picked 12 WS people from here today...and 12 different tomorrow...we could get two different WS “verdicts.”

But what they say will be a resolution and hopefully will give some relief to either the Z family or the S family.

Then, we will see if it’s really “over.”

 

[stmarysmead]

How would she have gotten paint on the middle of her back?

Did they test to see if her fingers could reach there?

Was there paint on the rope?

 

[Tortoise]

It’s possible to draw different conclusions depending on what we focus on, what experts we believe. There is no video of what happening to RZ. So “objectivity” is in the eye of the beholder.

The jury has been given two very good presentations of what happened from both points of view. Even their decision will not “prove”anything...because if we picked 12 WS people from here today...and 12 different tomorrow...we could get two different WS “verdicts.”

But what they say will be a resolution and hopefully will give some relief to either the Z family or the S family.

Then, we will see if it’s really “over.”

Since you believe the defense expert, how did he justify these three things - the rope lengths, body position and Adam's own words?

 

[BRRI]

I also find it interesting that she had her period. Hormones during one’s period can create havoc with a woman’s emotions.

I think RZ has just checked out of this world at that point. She didn’t care where blood dropped, whether being naked would shame her family, whether Adam needed her to run chores. She was just DONE. And she mockingly pointed out with her painted message...JS couldn’t “save”her to keep around in this miserable life till he discarded her.

Speaking of her period, RZ had an IUD, right? Do we know which one?

 

[Really?]

Agree. Nor does it explain how she could have tied herself up, hopped out on the balcony, then paused to wipe fingerprints from the doorknob and door frame leading to the balcony before magically levitating herself over the railing.

Exactly, plus when did she gag herself ? Before or after she tied herself up ?

 

[Tortoise]

I don't know if Keith Greer or Mary checks in here but if they do I would like them to know that they have done an exceptional job, the case is looking solid, and they have a lot of support here at WS.

May it go exactly as you plan!

 

[stmarysmead]

Since you believe the defense expert, how did he justify these three things - the rope lengths, body position and Adam's own words?

I believe that there was still lividity when AS cut her down and that’s when her legs were bent. As far as the rope lengths, I believe she cut them. And I give more credence to RZ’s words in her journal that some exclamation that anyone could have made during an interrogation.

I believe she held the gag in her teeth as she tied her hands.

Though I value the opinions of the sleuthers on this website, I agree with the professional investigators who had no reason to decide this case one way or the other, that this was a-suicide.

 

[stmarysmead]

Question for all of us....if a juror believes RZ was murdered but doesn’t believe there is enough proof that it is Adam...what should they do?

I bet Mr Greer is pondering this today.

 

[Tortoise]

I believe that there was still lividity when AS cut her down and that’s when her legs were bent. As far as the rope lengths, I believe she cut them. And I give more credence to RZ’s words in her journal that some exclamation that anyone could have made during an interrogation.

I believe she held the gag in her teeth as she tied her hands.

Though I value the opinions of the sleuthers on this website, I agree with the professional investigators who had no reason to decide this case one way or the other, that this was a-suicide.

I don't expect a direct answer to my questions but I do have unanswered questions from your reply -

Why were her knees fixed apart as she laid on her side, if she was a floppy dead weight allowing her knees to bend as she was carried but not yet in rigor mortis?
Rebecca cut her own hogtie?
How is Rebecca's journal related to her being hogtied?
Why would Adam think she might have been tied up?
Why did Adam ask the detectives if she was tied up?
Can we trust that LE always gets it right?

 

[*Lash*]

Agree. Nor does it explain how she could have tied herself up, hopped out on the balcony, then paused to wipe fingerprints from the doorknob and door frame leading to the balcony before magically levitating herself over the railing.

Don’t forget she was also doing all this with a tshirt wrapped around her neck 3 times and stuffed in her mouth :doh:...

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM: And that led to a ritualistic bizarre complex suicide including hogtieing herself? Not believable IMO.

I have considered the theory that I’ve seen many places that she was attempting to punish Jonah. What not believable to me is that AS is a super assassin capable of removing all trace evidence of himself and leaving RZs.

Everything else to me is emotional speculation.

 

[Tortoise]

Question for all of us....if a juror believes RZ was murdered but doesn’t believe there is enough proof that it is Adam...what should they do?

I bet Mr Greer is pondering this today.

I bet he's not

The jury will know it was someone intimately involved with and affected by Max's situation and Jonah was at the hospital.

 

[stmarysmead]

I don't expect a direct answer to my questions but I do have unanswered questions from your reply -

Why were her knees fixed apart as she laid on her side, if she was a floppy dead weight allowing her knees to bend as she was carried but not yet in rigor mortis?
Rebecca cut her own hogtie?
How is Rebecca's journal related to her being hogtied?
Why would Adam think she might have been tied up?
Why did Adam ask the detectives if she was tied up?
Can we trust that LE always gets it right?

I believe being hogtied is a circumstantial theory of the plaintiffs. I don’t believe it. AS said he “hoped” she wasn’t tied up. Hey, he saw the rope and bindings. Perfectly logical thing to say.

No, LE doesn’t always get it right. I agree mistakes are made. But since there is not a scintilla of trace evidence, not a scintilla of evidence of criminal wrongdoing by LE...the fact that so many investigators and experts hanged from presuming homicide to declaring suicide resonates strongly that they can’t ALL be incompetent or corrupt.

 

[*Lash*]

I don't know if Keith Greer or Mary checks in here but if they do I would like them to know that they have done an exceptional job, the case is looking solid, and they have a lot of support here at WS.

May it go exactly as you plan!

Same here, Tortoise :tyou:

Best wishes to the Zahau’s and Mr. Greer! You have a great number of supporters :grouphug: hoping for justice to prevail and a new independent investigation!

raying:...Justice for Rebecca!

 

[Tortoise]

I have considered the theory that I’ve seen many places that she was attempting to punish Jonah. What not believable to me is that AS is a super assassin capable of removing all trace evidence of himself and leaving RZs.

Everything else to me is emotional speculation.

He didn't remove all trace evidence of himself. He didn't leave any trace evidence of himself the next morning either.

It's rather demeaning to suggest the evidence for murder has anything to do with emotion.

 

[Brit]

It does if your brush is too wet. Takes experience to know how to prevent the dripping.

It is believed that the painting was used directly from the tube, there was no type of palette used to mix the paint and no water jar that indicated the brush was wet. Acrylic paint is very thick. My last post explains it all.