Rebecca's Death

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  • #301
I'm not sure but I think AB said mixed DNA during one of her interviews. I am going to try and verify exactly what was said as soon as possible.

The autopsy report showed blood on two fingers of her right hand. I don't recall I heard mention of whether that blood was typed. If that was not Rebecca's blood would that and the foreign DNA found under her nails be considered possible defensive wounds? She also had an 1/8th inch abrasion on the left forearm and abrasions on the 2nd and 3rd left fingers.

I'm quoting myself because I forgot to mention that the autopsy report also showed 4 abrasions to the right hand and an abrasion between the right 3rd and 4th finger. She also a 3 inch abrasion to her upper right back and a smaller abrasion to her right shoulder.

So she had 4 hard knocks to the head, facial scratches, wounds to both hands and forearms, blood on her fingers, multiple contusions to the front of her lower legs and foot, innumerable scratches and punctuate wounds to her back. Could these MULTIPLE PLANES OF INJURY have possibly been related to an assault? Are some of these defensive wounds? She seems like she was beat up in addition to being garroted, strangled with the tee shirt (wrapped around neck 3 times and knotted twice with the end of the sleeve stuffed in her mouth) and hung. Was this overkill done by a disinterested party? I think not. Imoo.
 
  • #302
Yes, that on top of all the other aspects that would make this a rare or totally unique suicide. It's just not believable on face value.

I still think she had a thinner strangulation mark around her neck that was not caused by any hanging. Someone earlier verified that (freespeech?) - was that in the first and second autopsy?

@time-This is all my opinion
Rebecca had a thin red line on her first autopsy report.(page 9 Rebecca Zahau autopsy report).

-The second thin red line which was posterior and parallel to the ligature furrow on Autopsy was not a furrow or groove or ligature mark.(As would be seen in manual strangulation.)

-The second thin red line on Autopsy, is a common finding in hanging victims. During hanging, there is constriction of the venous blood flow, but the arterial blood flow continues to a point. The thin red line is due to congestion of the vessels(with blood).

*Please note that some of these links contain very graphic images.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum ... hs-100402/

-a thin red line of congestion is usually seen above, below or along the furrow
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46406772/Doc
 
  • #303
I'm not sure but I think AB said mixed DNA during one of her interviews. I am going to try and verify exactly what was said as soon as possible.

The autopsy report showed blood on two fingers of her right hand. I don't recall I heard mention of whether that blood was typed. If that was not Rebecca's blood would that and the foreign DNA found under her nails be considered possible defensive wounds? She also had an 1/8th inch abrasion on the left forearm and abrasions on the 2nd and 3rd left fingers.


@freespeech- In my opinion, if the blood is proved to not belong to Rebecca (and also did not belong to XZ or MS) it could be considered suspicious, because the other injuries could be explained by the fall itself, but foreign DNA evidence not consistant with the manner of death is in my opinion questionable.
Was there any evidence of that blood not belonging to Rebecca?
 
  • #304
@time-This is all my opinion
Rebecca had a thin red line on her first autopsy report.(page 9 Rebecca Zahau autopsy report).

-The second thin red line which was posterior and parallel to the ligature furrow on Autopsy was not a furrow or groove or ligature mark.(As would be seen in manual strangulation.)

-The second thin red line on Autopsy, is a common finding in hanging victims. During hanging, there is constriction of the venous blood flow, but the arterial blood flow continues to a point. The thin red line is due to congestion of the vessels(with blood).

*Please note that some of these links contain very graphic images.

http://www.documentingreality.com/forum ... hs-100402/

-a thin red line of congestion is usually seen above, below or along the furrow
http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf

http://www.scribd.com/doc/46406772/Doc

Thanks Jessica. I'll take a pass on the photos re: the second ligature mark. I also believe that Cyril Wecth did not rule out the possibility that she may have been strangled first.

I think some of this comes from the fact that her neck did not break after a long drop hanging. I don't recall that Lucas documented any damage to the neck bones which would have been expected to be fractured. Also, because of the alleged long drop she also could have been decapitated.

However, the crushed throat bones with the facial petechiae are more indicative of strangulation, imo.

Also, Rebecca had multiple planes of injury to the surface of her body. That would be more indicative of an assault, no?
 
  • #305
I'm not sure but I think AB said mixed DNA during one of her interviews. I am going to try and verify exactly what was said as soon as possible.

The autopsy report showed blood on two fingers of her right hand. I don't recall I heard mention of whether that blood was typed. If that was not Rebecca's blood would that and the foreign DNA found under her nails be considered possible defensive wounds? She also had an 1/8th inch abrasion on the left forearm and abrasions on the 2nd and 3rd left fingers.


@freespeech- In my opinion, if the blood is proved to not belong to Rebecca (and also did not belong to XZ or MS) it could be considered suspicious, because the other injuries could be explained by the fall itself, but foreign DNA evidence not consistant with the manner of death is in my opinion questionable.
Was there any evidence of that blood not belonging to Rebecca?

I may have read or heard that AB stated that not all the blood was tested. I have not heard/read whether the blood found on her fingers was tested. I hope Lucas made a slide and inventoried it. It could answer some questions about what happened.

I don't think the blood would be Max or her sister's blood. She died a day and a half after Max's accident and her sister left town. She probably washed her hands after the accident and she was showered so how could their blood be on her fingers when she died?
 
  • #306
AB stated that there was mixed DNA all over the scene including the bed frame, knife, black gloves and under Rebecca's nails.

..." Sheriff's Crime Lab Director Michael Grubb did not dispute the presence of unidentifiable, mixed DNA at the Coronado scene.

"The majority of the DNA under Rebecca Zahau's fingernails was her own," said Grubb. "Various fingernails were tested as separate samples and one of them showed a DNA mixture but the level of DNA was so low that it was an un-interpretable mixture."

In addition to the fingernail sample, unidentified DNA also was recovered from the rope used in Zahau's alleged hanging; a large knife used to the cut the rope; the bed frame to which the rope was tied; a door knob on the balcony door; and a pair of black gloves found on a table in the mansion, Grubb said."

"Because the amount of mixed DNA recovered was so minuscule, San Diego County Sheriff Bill Gore said it was unnecessary to collect DNA samples from Zahau's boyfriend, Arizona tycoon Jonah Shacknai, or Jonah's ex-wife, Dina Shacknai."

I hope that Michael Grub made slides and inventoried the "un-interpretable DNA" since apparently there are other methods also available for interpretation of these types of samples.

Also, you can't win the argument that the only DNA at the scene was Rebecca's if you refuse to take samples from other "witnesses" and test them against the mixed DNA that was recovered from the scene. Don't get me wrong but I thought the point of an investigation is to discover what happened and not prove the point that they are saying she killed herself.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested
 
  • #307
Just how "committed" are you if you are thinking of leaving because you can't get along your boyfriends children, just my opinion. Ones that would be adults soon enough.

And hadn't Rebecca just moved in with Jonah in January? That's only seven months...not a long term relationship, IMO.
Curious, You took what Rebecca supposedly said about possibly needing some time to herself at the end of summer and turned it into her "thinking of leaving??" Mary also said Rebecca was going to visit her parents in the near future. Maybe that was the time away she was speaking of. A mini vacation.

As far as her being committed...she quit her job, giving up her financial independence, moved in with Jonah, took care of Jonah's kids and put up with Dina's invasive behavior. Everything I've read states they were together for 2 yrs, not just the 7 months you speak of that they lived together. A couple can be committed to each other without living together.

That was how traditional courtships and engagements used to be until it became socially acceptable for couples to 'play house' before marriage as my Grandma used to call it.

Becoming a blended family is not an instant fit. The kids have to get used to having another adult in their lives. Not only getting to know them, but having to follow instructions from someone other than their parents. Kids test their limits to see what the new person will let them get away with and often times, they hear the estranged bio parent making disparaging remarks about the new person, so they act rude and disrespectfully as a show of loyalty to that parent. And sometimes kids just have no respect for any adults.

I was raised not to say "What?" when my parents called me. We said 'yes, maam or yes sir'.
My bf's kids holler "Whaaat?" from the other room. At first, I thought they were being disrespectful. But I know now that their mother allows them to say "What?" to her. I explained that in our house, we will say "Yes" to each other when called. We are learning each other. It's a slow process but a very rewarding one.

I take "me" time every once in a while just so I can exhale from all the new responsibilities I have now. And I think the kids appreciate having Daddy to themselves for a day or two and I am very committed to my man and 'our' kids.
 
  • #308
Thanks Jessica. I'll take a pass on the photos re: the second ligature mark. I also believe that Cyril Wecth did not rule out the possibility that she may have been strangled first.

I think some of this comes from the fact that her neck did not break after a long drop hanging. I don't recall that Lucas documented any damage to the neck bones which would have been expected to be fractured. Also, because of the alleged long drop she also could have been decapitated.

However, the crushed throat bones with the facial petechiae are more indicative of strangulation, imo.

Also, Rebecca had multiple planes of injury to the surface of her body. That would be more indicative of an assault, no?

Here is an article that discusses the difference between the injuries sustained in choking and ligature strangulation vs hanging.

An excerpt:

The tiny red spots (petechiae) characteristic of many cases of strangulation are due to ruptured capillaries—the smallest blood vessels in the body—and sometimes may be found only under the eyelids (conjunctivae).10 However, sometimes they may be found around the eyes in the periorbital region, anywhere on the face, and on the neck in and above the area of constriction. Petechiae tend to be most pronounced in ligature strangulation.11...

...Ligature marks (e.g., rope burns) may be very subtle, mimicking the natural folds of the neck. They may also be much more dramatic, reflecting the type of ligature used, e.g., the wave-like form of a telephone cord, or the braided pattern of a rope or clothesline. If the victim has been strangled from behind, the impression from the ligature generally will be horizontal at the same level of the neck. This may be of use to differentiate the ligature mark from strangulation from the pattern left from a hanging. In a hanging, the ligature mark tends to be vertical and teardrop shaped, with the knot at the nape of the neck, directly in front or behind the ear or up under the chin.12....

...To further differentiate strangulation by ligature from strangulation by hanging, in ligature, the mark on the neck is usually below the level of the thyroid cartilage (“Adam’s apple”) while in hanging, it is usually above. Finally, in strangulation by ligature, the hyoid bone and/or thyroid cartilage are often fractured, in hanging, these are usually intact.


Also, from the same article an interesting list of factors taken into consideration by the investigators:

1. Height/weight of the parties.
2. Who is fearful of whom?
3. Detail of statement and corroboration.
4. History of domestic violence, assaults, or criminal history.
5. Use of alcohol or drugs.
6. Whether either party is subject to a restraining order or on domestic violence probation.
7. Pattern evidence.
8. Injuries consistent with reported statement.
9. Examine hands for any hair, blood, fiber, or evidence of epithelia cells after strangulation
(fingernail scrapings).
10. Signs of symptoms of strangulation.
11. Offensive/defensive injuries.

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/strangulation_article.pdf

Here's the article where Cyril Wecht states that he very strongly leans toward believing that Rebecca was murdered and very strongly against believing that she killed herself. He stated that her neck should have broken or she should have been decapitated if she was hung.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16049618/pathologist-hanging-would-have-broken-zahaus-neck
 
  • #309
..." the San Diego County Medical Examiner's office released a copy of its report on Rebecca Zahau's death. New details included the discovery of an inch of sticky material on Zahau's legs, a t-shirt stuffed in her mouth and no evidence that Zahau had a history of mental illness or suicide attempts.

According to the report, Zahau "did not seem to blame herself or take an excessive amount of responsibility for the accident" that resulted in the death of Shacknai's 6-year-old son Max.

"Bremner and the Zahau family wonder why a psychiatric autopsy wasn't done to give more foundation to the suicide conclusion.

A psychiatric autopsy involves showing evidence to a psychologist, who interprets if suicide is likely."

Link below.

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/ks...-zahau-investigation-20110906,0,2515694.story
 
  • #310
Snipped for context and BBM
AB stated that there was mixed DNA all over the scene including the bed frame,

Also, you can't win the argument that the only DNA at the scene was Rebecca's if you refuse to take samples from other "witnesses" and test them against the mixed DNA that was recovered from the scene. Don't get me wrong but I thought the point of an investigation is to discover what happened and not prove the point that they are saying she killed herself.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested


11/17 press briefing - https://viewer.zoho.com/download?genFile=yea8bh

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
Real quick. Was there mixed DNA found anywhere else in terms of the -‐ I think Ms. Bremner said on the show there was mixed DNA found on gloves, on the bed frame, and on the knife. Is there mixed DNA on those items?

GRUBB:
I'll run this down for you fairly quickly. Overwhelmingly, in 10 of the 11 rope segments --err--samples from the rope was Rebecca Zahau’s DNA that was found. In one of those samples there was a fragment of DNA from some other source, absolutely uninterpretable. There was a low level of DNA uninterpretable on the large knife from the bedroom floor. There was a low-level mixture of DNA not interpretable on a doorknob to the balcony. Those are the mixtures that I think she was --and the black gardening gloves that were recovered from a table at the scene? Again, a low level mixture, uninterpretable.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
What about the bed frame?

GRUBB:
That DNA sample was insufficient for analysis.


In my opinion this completely refutes the theory that only Rebecca's DNA was found at the scene. Whether the evidence was uninterpretable, insufficient or not tested SDSO made a false statement in supporting their conclusion.
 
  • #311
Did they test for DNA inside the gloves?
 
  • #312
I'm a little confused. Are there two pairs of gloves: garden gloves and latex gloves?
 
  • #313
Snipped for context and BBM



11/17 press briefing - https://viewer.zoho.com/download?genFile=yea8bh

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
Real quick. Was there mixed DNA found anywhere else in terms of the -‐ I think Ms. Bremner said on the show there was mixed DNA found on gloves, on the bed frame, and on the knife. Is there mixed DNA on those items?

GRUBB:
I'll run this down for you fairly quickly. Overwhelmingly, in 10 of the 11 rope segments --err--samples from the rope was Rebecca Zahau’s DNA that was found. In one of those samples there was a fragment of DNA from some other source, absolutely uninterpretable. There was a low level of DNA uninterpretable on the large knife from the bedroom floor. There was a low-level mixture of DNA not interpretable on a doorknob to the balcony. Those are the mixtures that I think she was --and the black gardening gloves that were recovered from a table at the scene? Again, a low level mixture, uninterpretable.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:
What about the bed frame?

GRUBB:
That DNA sample was insufficient for analysis.


In my opinion this completely refutes the theory that only Rebecca's DNA was found at the scene. Whether the evidence was uninterpretable, insufficient or not tested SDSO made a false statement in supporting their conclusion.

Thank you lash for the great post. You pulled this together perfectly to prove that the statement that only Rebecca's DNA was at the scene was incorrect and inaccurately represented.
 
  • #314
I'm a little confused. Are there two pairs of gloves: garden gloves and latex gloves?

I don't have the reference but it may have been either a pair of latex glove and one gardening glove or vice versa or a pair of each. Let's hope they tested both the inside and outside of the gloves. After all this was a suspicious and violent death investigation.
 
  • #315
  • #316
Warrant 41227 - Receipt and Inventory:

2. Pair black gloves

21. Black latex glove

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

Lash, thanks for being organized.

I don't know how you do it. You must be very organized. Do do have links filed in a certain order or just know where to find them quickly?

It takes me so long to find links. I forget where to look or whether I saved them or not. Being required to post links for everything is certainly a daunting task ... at least for me.
 
  • #317
Warrant 41227 - Receipt and Inventory:

2. Pair black gloves

21. Black latex glove

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/warrant_41227.pdf

I take it that #21 has to be black nitrile gloves and that they come in sizes typically. I know the dark blue gloves we buy to paint and such do. The dark blue gloves we have are latex (inside) and nitrile and powder coated. I have no idea if people commonly buy these Black Nitrile gloves for typical household use unless it is for electronics or automotive work or kinky sex?

These black nitrile gloves are used by workers in health care, automotive, electronic assembly, law enforcement, security environments, tattoo shops and beauty salons. Our black nitrile gloves are exam grade, latex-free, powder-free, 510K approved and can be used in medical applications. Features a textured finish for excellent chemical resistance and a great grip. Wearing a black nitrile glove allows instant hand protection without the visibility of blood, dirt and other contaminants.

* Complies with FDA Biocompatibility Guidance for Medical Devices
* Passes viral penetration test (ASTM F1671)
* 510K/Approved for medical use
* ISO 9002 Certified QMS
It would be interesting to know what size the black nitrile gloves are and if there is DNA inside.
 
  • #318
Two San Diego detectives weigh in -

•The case is certainly suspicious," says Sgt. Roy Frank of the San Diego sheriff's homicide unit. "It is not usual to find a female in a backyard unclothed and tied up. That, combined with Max's accident, makes it suspicious."

•"I've never seen a suicide victim on display like that, in the nude," says former San Diego homicide detective Richard Carlson, a 35-year police veteran. "And it's one thing to tie your hands to prevent saving yourself, but why tie your feet?"

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20523389,00.html
 
  • #319
July 21, 2011
Retired San Diego detective and suicide expert has told RadarOnline.com that he believes the death of Rebecca Zahau 'is very suspicious'.
Former homicide detective Rick Carlson - who penned the book I'm In The Tub, Gone which detailed a series of suicide notes - has been watching the shocking story unravel.
His former colleagues are still actively probing the baffling case after stunning Zahau, 32, was found hanging naked with her feet and hands bound inside her wealthy boyfriend Jonah Shacknai's Coronado mansion, just two days after his son Max Shacknai, 6, suffered a fatal fall while in her care.
And Carlson believes that investigators will be closely looking at the timeline of events as they try and crack the case that has gripped the wealthy enclave of Coronado where the couple resided.
He added: "I know from past history of suicide cases that somebody can be revived between four to eight minutes after such an incident so maybe he thought she could be saved and that is why he cut her down.
"But this is such an unusual case in such an up-market area like Coronado and there are clearly still a lot of unanswered questions.
"The detectives involved in the case will be working around the clock to solve this mystery.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/07/rebecca-zahau-suicide-suspicious-detective-expert-interview-rick-carlson"
 
  • #320
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