Rehtaeh Parsons, Teen gang raped, no charges, commits suicide

[JeannaT]

snipped for focus

I think you may be forgetting the Federalist Papers, written anonymously under the name Publius, by those social activists (now considered Founding Fathers) Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay, urging the American people to accept the terms of the Constitution. Fascinating stuff, and where would we be today without their anonymous--and quite persuasive--social activism?

As for myself, what makes me incredibly uncomfortable is anonymous people who proclaim from behind a computer monitor that even in cases where the victim was by all accounts unconscious, shades of gray still exist as to whether she consented or not.

:moo: of course.

She wasn't, by all accounts, unconscious during the sex acts. She was certainly drinking.

You continue to confuse this case with the California case.

 

[Contemplater]

Just thinking out loud here. Could any of these boys be a relative of the investigators, school trustees or anyone in a position to make this not go through the process at the time?

 

[IzzyBlanche]

She wasn't, by all accounts, unconscious during the sex acts. She was certainly drinking.

You continue to confuse this case with the California case.

In this post, I wasn't, actually, I simply wasn't clear that I was going off topic. I was referring to the Steubenville Jane Doe, who by all accounts was passed out unconscious during the sex acts. If I recall correctly, it was your stance that even so, shades of gray existed there also.

 

[JeannaT]

Shades of grey did exist in that case too, IMHO. Shades of grey exist in almost any situation in life in my view. Almost every experience - good and bad - comes in shades of grey.

In the Steubenville case, which isn't the topic of this thread, it also wasn't clear that she was passed out during the sex acts. There was a news article in that case that differentiated "blacked out" vs. "passed out". In "blacking out" the intoxicated person doesn't remember the event but is clearly conscious. You see that after parties - someone will have to call a friend and ask what they did, only to learn to their horror that they made vulgar remarks, or sang embarrassingly loud, etc. They're definitely not unconscious.

I also believe that we don't do anything drunk that we don't want to do sober. Except vomit.

But that's not really the topic of this thread - this is a discussion about Rehteah and not all the other cases.

 

[matou]

Good article:

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...sons_a_familys_tragedy_and_a_towns_shame.html

 

[gitana1]

ETA:

Good grief, I am tired tonight. I confused this rape case with Audrie Potts's rape case. All these cases are sadly beginning to run together, know what I mean?

I apologize for my confusion but I stand by my original remarks below no matter what the case.

So I guess it's really very simple, huh? If you are a girl and you get passed-out drunk drinking with your male friends who are also drunk, and they decide to rape you while you are passed out, so sad, too bad. Shades of gray and all, who's to say you didn't come on to them before you passed out, so that if they did have sex with you while you were passed out, you pretty much already gave consent before by flirting with them, right? So why are you complaining, you ?

And if someone took pictures of it and passed them around to everyone in your school, well, shades of gray so even if you did agree to consensual sex while you were passed out, that kind of thing is acceptable among people who have consensual sex, right? I mean, I know I would feel perfectly comfortable if my casual-sex hook-up partner had his friends snapping pictures of us having consensual sex and passing them along to whomever, because that's just normal sexual behavior, right?

Dear God, please, I want to go back to my own planet Earth, where the above is all obvious rubbish to anyone with an ounce of decency and compassion.

As an attorney and a human, it is disgusting rubbish to me.

In many jurisdictions, a drunk person cannot consent to sex so depending on the level of intoxication, sex with such a person can be rape. Conversely, intense inebriation may be a mitigating factor in a crime.

A couple of things though: One, being so drunk that your actions may be somewhat compromised means you are probably too drunk to sustain an erection. Two, alcohol doesn't cause people to become different people. It brings out what may be hidden. So if someone is raping another human while drunk, they are a rapist.

Three, there is a vast difference between a teen who has it in them to get drunk and be promiscuous and one who has it in them to get drunk and take advantage of another: The former only hurts themselves. The latter is a predator.

Shades of gray, huh? When we begin equating self-injurious behavior to predatory behavior, we have lost all semblance of character and humanity as a society. Something smells like shaming to me.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

As a rape survivor this really got to me (not that other cases DON'T, but some "register" more than others). It's gratifying to know that a new investigation is under way - whether or not it's a new source, or a source who was previously ignored, I am grateful it seems there is at least ONE person who will come forward.

The saddest thing about that Toronto Star article? The final quote: "They don't think they did anything wrong."

Four boys having sex* with an inebriated girl, so sick she had to puke out a window, giving the thumbs up while having a photo taken of what is happening to her, then disseminating it... They don't think they did anything wrong? Who the f--- raised these boys?!?!?!?

For that matter, what parent doesn't keep an eye on a bunch of teenagers in their house, especially when it's boys and girls present? The adult went to bed? Jesus El Pifco. I can't think of a time when any of us were at someone's home and the parents didn't stay up, or else tell everyone to leave because it was getting too late. We were no angels, and got up to stuff we shouldn't have (a LOT of stuff), but at least that was when the parents weren't around to put the brakes on.

And whether or not she smoked weed, or used painkillers, before this incident, or whether that substance use came later... she could have been the biggest booze-swillin', weed-smokin', pill popping kid in town and it is still irrelevant to the actions of those boys. :banghead:

The fact that her girlfriend was present just makes it even worse to me. I can't even imagine how I would have felt if my girlfriend had known what was happening and she didn't raise hell.


*I am using "having sex" in place of "raping" in deference to the fact that there is no proof right now that she didn't consent, or was past the point of consent; but just using my good old common sense? a teenage girl so drunk she's puking out a window is not likely an active, consenting participant... JMO

 

[matou]

I can't remember the last time I "had sex" whilst puking. JMO

 

[Deleted member 96356]

BTW, is there a thread for Audrie Potts (CA), who also committed suicide after being sexually assaulted at a party and the photos were distributed? Felony charges were filed this week. Can't find one for Audrie...

 

[Secrett]

BTW, is there a thread for Audrie Potts (CA), who also committed suicide after being sexually assaulted at a party and the photos were distributed? Felony charges were filed this week. Can't find one for Audrie...

Here it is

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205264"]CA-3 teens arrested for assault after girl's suicide - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

sent by my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk HD

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I received an email tonight with a picture of my cousin's daughter all dolled up for the prom, beautiful, smiling, radiant.

My unbidden first thought was, dear God, please don't let her drink too much and get raped.

There is something very wrong with our society today that these were the first thoughts that came into my head.

 

[JeannaT]

I received an email tonight with a picture of my cousin's daughter all dolled up for the prom, beautiful, smiling, radiant.

My unbidden first thought was, dear God, please don't let her drink too much and get raped.

There is something very wrong with our society today that these were the first thoughts that came into my head.

I agree, yes, there is something wrong when rape is the first thought that comes into your head.

Statistically, sadly, prom night is a HUGE night for girls to get pregnant. It's awful, they need more chaperones, more curfews, more supervision. Teenagers are SO fertile.

It's not about rape, though. I'm not quite sure why we always focus on rape when teenagers have sex.

 

[Contemplater]

Update:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2gEC6E3Obrk

 

[greenthumb]

I agree, yes, there is something wrong when rape is the first thought that comes into your head.

Statistically, sadly, prom night is a HUGE night for girls to get pregnant. It's awful, they need more chaperones, more curfews, more supervision. Teenagers are SO fertile.

It's not about rape, though. I'm not quite sure why we always focus on rape when teenagers have sex.

BBM

I don't believe you can say it is never about rape, any more than you can say it is always about rape.

IMO, there are a number of separate yet equally important issues that need to be addressed. One of those issues is the drinking culture amongst our teens. Another is the acceptance of very casual sex, often in very public ways in the teenage social world. And yes, the lack of parental supervision/chaperoning is a huge issue. But another and separate issue is that of rape of and by young people, because IMO some situations are most certainly rape - not consensual casual sex. And then the dissemination of pornographic photos/videos arising from either casual sex or rape is another issue. And the unwillingness of adults to intervene & provide some guidance/set an example when this kind of bullying is going on in their community is separate again.

All related but there are so many facets to this problem, IMO. And if we don't force them to be examined, and require LE/the justice system to apply the laws we have in place in a fair way, and require our legislators to understand/react to the realities facing our teenagers, then we are failing an entire generation of young people, IMO.

Social media has changed the rules, changed kids' lives, changed everything from when I was young. And we need to change our thinking and our legislation to deal with the world our kids are living in now. I know change comes slowly - but it has to start somewhere, and to demand investigation & accountability in what seems like a plague of teenage suicides due to bullying is a really good place, IMO.

 

[JeannaT]

Well, no, I didn't intend to say it's NEVER about rape - but prom night sex is about wild hormones and couples in love. Or it used to be - until recently proms were for couples and now kids go in groups (which is better, actually, and more inclusive). But anyway, prom night traditionally isn't the time when these parties happen with several boys having sex with one girl.

I agree with the rest of what you've said, though.

Times have certainly changed. I went to high school in the 70's, and have worked with youth groups in my adulthood. Up until about 15 years ago if you wanted a group of kids to behave, you made sure there were a few popular girls in the group. The popular girls led the other girls to respectable behavior, and the boys also behaved to impress the girl leaders. It was formula. Stick a couple drill team girls or the captain of the volleyball team, and you could expect good behavior out of the whole group.

Not now. I went to a brown bag lunch for parents and the principal at our middle school about 10 years ago - the principal was begging for help from the parents. What is going ON with these kids, the principal wanted to know. He'd been administrating middle school for 30 years and he said he'd never seen girl behavior like this, ever. Aggressive sexuality. Girls chasing boys and trying to give them oral sex in public. This was right after the Lewinsky fiasco when it seemed decent and fine to discuss oral sex and semen stains on blue dresses on the 6 o'clock news. Lowering of the bar for what was appropriate to discuss in public.

For anyone my age, this is unbelievable, really. There was also an incident of 4 girls (nice girls, good families) caught in a hot tub at a supervised party giving 4 boys BJs. At the same time. Like it was funny or something.

That's what's changed, IMHO. A complete and total relaxing of sexual modesty. I don't think boy behavior has changed - I think girl behavior has changed. Boys would always behave as badly as they could get away with, and girls wouldn't be with the boys who behaved badly. So boy behavior was kept in check by girls. Same way as women kept male behavior in check - and wouldn't have sex with men who had several children with several women. Women didn't used to put up with that at all, and if a man wanted sex with women he had to behave decently and respectably.

At this point, girls are defending the worst behavior in boys and boys continue to act out. And women will willingly get pregnant and fight their man's pregnant girlfriend for the prize of being with the lout.

In my opinion.

 

[greenthumb]

Well, no, I didn't intend to say it's NEVER about rape - but prom night sex is about wild hormones and couples in love. Or it used to be - until recently proms were for couples and now kids go in groups (which is better, actually, and more inclusive). But anyway, prom night traditionally isn't the time when these parties happen with several boys having sex with one girl.

I agree with the rest of what you've said, though.

Times have certainly changed. I went to high school in the 70's, and have worked with youth groups in my adulthood. Up until about 15 years ago if you wanted a group of kids to behave, you made sure there were a few popular girls in the group. The popular girls led the other girls to respectable behavior, and the boys also behaved to impress the girl leaders. It was formula. Stick a couple drill team girls or the captain of the volleyball team, and you could expect good behavior out of the whole group.

Not now. I went to a brown bag lunch for parents and the principal at our middle school about 10 years ago - the principal was begging for help from the parents. What is going ON with these kids, the principal wanted to know. He'd been administrating middle school for 30 years and he said he'd never seen girl behavior like this, ever. Aggressive sexuality. Girls chasing boys and trying to give them oral sex in public. This was right after the Lewinsky fiasco when it seemed decent and fine to discuss oral sex and semen stains on blue dresses on the 6 o'clock news. Lowering of the bar for what was appropriate to discuss in public.

For anyone my age, this is unbelievable, really. There was also an incident of 4 girls (nice girls, good families) caught in a hot tub at a supervised party giving 4 boys BJs. At the same time. Like it was funny or something.

That's what's changed, IMHO. A complete and total relaxing of sexual modesty. I don't think boy behavior has changed - I think girl behavior has changed. Boys would always behave as badly as they could get away with, and girls wouldn't be with the boys who behaved badly. So boy behavior was kept in check by girls. Same way as women kept male behavior in check - and wouldn't have sex with men who had several children with several women. Women didn't used to put up with that at all, and if a man wanted sex with women he had to behave decently and respectably.

At this point, girls are defending the worst behavior in boys and boys continue to act out. And women will willingly get pregnant and fight their man's pregnant girlfriend for the prize of being with the lout.

In my opinion.

Oh, sigh.

Too much of what you've said is true, sadly. I mean, to generalize too much makes me uncomfortable, because I know making blanket statements about 'boys' and 'girls' is too simplified... but I think I understand what you mean. And I'm not sure that discussion of all of this is necessarily related to Rehtaeh's case, because I do not at all believe that Rehtaeh 'deserved' what happened to her.

However, in a general sense, I agree that times have changed and not for the better.

I have teenagers who talk to me openly about what is considered to be 'normal' behaviour these days, and it scares me. Partly because those kids who choose not to participate in what I consider to be wanton and total reckless sexual behaviour, as well as dangerous binge drinking, feel so left out of their peers' social world. Seems their choice is to stay at home by themselves & feel alienated from friends/peers, or be part of that scene.

Some of the kids I talk to navigate these dangerous waters better than others. They have learned to ignore/overlook the bad behaviours and let that go on around them without indulging in it themselves. Others find it harder to be comfortable knowing what is happening at parties they are at, so choose not to be part of it.

So, do we blame womens' equality, which one would think to be a good thing, for giving some women the idea that they have the right to behave just as badly as some of their male counterparts? Have all the strides toward equality just led us to sinking to the lowest common denominator?

Somebody please point out where I'm wrong. I don't want to believe that. Today must be my pessimistic day. :wink:

 

[JeannaT]

I agree. I do know lots of teens - my sons included - who were able to go to a party, have a beer, and then leave kind of early before bedlam broke out. I think probably most teens are like that - they do want to be at the party, and they want to have a couple beers, but they really don't want to participate in the later evening stuff that is debasing and degrading and dangerous.

I think women's equality movement is a really good thing - equal pay for equal work, equal protections under the law, etc., that's just good sense.

I think where we err here, though, is telling girls they're the same as boys. Equal is great, but the "same" isn't true.

And the girls end up getting very, very hurt. Just looking through these recent threads of girls who will prostitute themselves out, or kill themselves to keep nude photos of themselves from being circulated when the boys in the photos are bragging about it. Girls are so, so vulnerable.

Sad.

 

[kmclaren]

snipped...

Times have certainly changed. I went to high school in the 70's, and have worked with youth groups in my adulthood. Up until about 15 years ago if you wanted a group of kids to behave, you made sure there were a few popular girls in the group. The popular girls led the other girls to respectable behavior, and the boys also behaved to impress the girl leaders. It was formula. Stick a couple drill team girls or the captain of the volleyball team, and you could expect good behavior out of the whole group.

Are you actually saying that "popular" girls were so much better behaved than "unpopular" kids? That popular girls are the only ones capable of influencing respectable behavior? Because a girl is a cheerleader, she is automatically so much better than a science lover or a bookworm or a drama student?

 

[JeannaT]

No, I'm not saying popular girls are better behaved. I'm saying the "popular girls" were able to lead the other kids. Sorry if that seems offensive to you. And I didn't mention cheerleaders, among the student leaders.

But I stand by my statement that the popular student leader girls (drill team, sports team captains) were capable of leading both girls and boys to good behavior.

If it means anything, I was a bookworm wallflower girl who was involved in Speech and Debate, and church in High School. I'm not speaking as if I myself were a student leader.

But I totally stand by what I said. That it used to be, you could seed a group of high schoolers with student leader girls, and be confident that they would all behave respectably in that setting. I didn't include cheerleaders in my group of student leader girls.

 

[Deleted member 96356]

Back to Rehtaeh... I saw this article in the National Post. Raises an interesting point about whether or not her life would have been improved if charges and convictions had occurred. Personally, I think the writer is missing something - it's true she could have been shunned by peers (although moving to a new town would surely have made a positive difference in that regard, IMO), but also the basic fact of being believed and trusting in the people you are supposed to go to for help. Not being believed, or being told to shut up and forget it, was devastating to me and I can only imagine how devastating that would have been to Rehtaeh when compounded with a photo being circulated and the authorities telling her they can't do anything.

Thoughts?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...dnt-have-spared-rehtaeh-parsons-the-bullying/

p.s. according to the article, the fact that she was inebriated means she did not have the power to consent, so whether or not force was used doesn't matter in this case - anyone know if that's true under Canadian law?