Rehtaeh Parsons, Teen gang raped, no charges, commits suicide

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  • #81
HawksGirl said:
p.s. according to the article, the fact that she was inebriated means she did not have the power to consent, so whether or not force was used doesn't matter in this case - anyone know if that's true under Canadian law?
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http://yourlaws.ca/criminal-code-canada/2731-meaning-“consent”

From the Criminal Code of Canada: http://yourlaws.ca/criminal-code-canada/2731-meaning-%E2%80%9Cconsent%E2%80%9D

(2) No consent is obtained, for the purposes of sections 271, 272 and 273, where... (rsbm)

(b) the complainant is incapable of consenting to the activity;
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I believe it's then left to interpretation - and I think it is generally accepted that a woman who is inebriated is incapable of consenting, though no doubt that has been challenged. Anyone have any info showing that it has been challenged successfully?
 
  • #82
"Incapable of consenting" is certainly vague. :(

Was she likely making choices that were different from the choices she would have made completely sober? I think without a doubt, the answer is yes.

Was she actually "incapable of consenting"? No, she was not, in my opinion. She was certainly capable of consenting if asked, would you like a blanket? would you like a glass of water? etc.

The law may need to be rewritten to be more specific. Rape occurs when a woman is in a frame of mind that is not typical for her. For example, after a horrible break-up with a fiance a woman who goes out looking for a hookup and finds one would fall under the incapable of consenting. Or a woman on a last night of a fabulous singles cruise, throwing caution to the wind in a way she would not in her hometown.

It's too murky, in my opinion. Too subjective. A woman who is unconscious is incapable of consent obviously (!!) but a woman who is drinking and not making very good choices is capable. Except in this case, for her age.

In my opinion.
 
  • #83
I hadn't followed this til today. Such a pretty girl and she may have been bullied because she was so pretty. I really don't understand why or how the parents of the boys are being sued. They deserve juvie, but it's so scary to think kids could get out and be caught up in peer pressure, be given booze, then the parent lose everything. It may not be popular, but all parents should put the kibosh on these mixed parties and monitor their kids' whereabouts while talking to other parents. When my oldest daughter was in school parents would allow booze at popular kid parties and nowadays they allow boy/ girl sleepovers.
 
  • #84
  • #85
HawksGirl said:
There will be an independent investigation of how the RCMP handled this case, as well as an independent investigation of the how the school board handled it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...-sexual-assault-case-following-public-outcry/

Meanwhile, the Prime Minister of Canada wants people to stop using the term bullying for these types of situations, and call it for what it is - criminal activity.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...ons-bullying-criminal-activity_n_3064844.html
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I completely agree, this NEEDS to happen. There needs to be a clear delineation between what is social feedback, what is bullying, and then further down the continuum, what is a crime that should be prosecuted by the courts.

And before charging people with crimes for having sex while drunk, there need to be specific laws that ban that. And when those laws are enacted, the bar businesses will close because that's their bread and butter. A significant percentage of men and women in a bar on a weekend are there to get drunk and hook up. If that is determined to be a crime, largely, the bar businesses will all close.

This is, of course, different when juveniles are involved. But how can we hold juvenile boys to a higher standard of discretion and maturity than we hold adult men to? It's a slippery slope, praise for this guy who is trying to tackle it, and good luck. But how can we accept that men will cruise bars for drunk women and have sex with them, and yet say that boys can't cruise parties for drunk girls?

Things that are crimes should be CLEARLY written into law, but things that are unattractive vulgar behavior aren't crimes. It's time to make the line clear.

And also, what is considered child 🤬🤬🤬🤬. Can those juveniles who are in the photos be charged with child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 if they create the photos of themselves, engaging in sex or photos of their genitals? No if they're girls, yes if they're boys? Because that's the way it is now. If boys even are in possession of a photo sent to them by a girl of the same age, of a photo she took of her body, the boy is criminally responsible where the girl is not.

Kudos to this movement, it's about time, to make laws align with charges that are being prosecuted.

I have to add this too, it's kind of related. In recent years, kids in public schools have been issued "tickets" for things that have to wend their way through the juvenile criminal court that are in fact, not crimes. Being surly, cursing at a teacher, being difficult to handle. They're sent to the office where the resource officer writes them a criminal offense ticket and they have to appear in criminal court. This is not being stopped. We have too many kids with criminal records who in fact, committed no crimes ever. They are just jerks, and being a jerk isn't a crime. Same thing with these cases, IMHO. Some things are crimes and those who commit them should be charged, and other things are just acts of difficult people.
 
  • #86
  • #87
JeannaT said:
"Incapable of consenting" is certainly vague. :(

Was she likely making choices that were different from the choices she would have made completely sober? I think without a doubt, the answer is yes.

Was she actually "incapable of consenting"? No, she was not, in my opinion. She was certainly capable of consenting if asked, would you like a blanket? would you like a glass of water? etc.

The law may need to be rewritten to be more specific. Rape occurs when a woman is in a frame of mind that is not typical for her. For example, after a horrible break-up with a fiance a woman who goes out looking for a hookup and finds one would fall under the incapable of consenting. Or a woman on a last night of a fabulous singles cruise, throwing caution to the wind in a way she would not in her hometown.

It's too murky, in my opinion. Too subjective. A woman who is unconscious is incapable of consent obviously (!!) but a woman who is drinking and not making very good choices is capable. Except in this case, for her age.

In my opinion.
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It isn't that vague. Simply being drunk doesn't make you incapable of consent. It has nothing to do with frame of mind. The criteria is whether you are capable of consenting. Essentially you would need to be incoherently falling down drunk ("walking unconscious" - if you have ever really been drunk, you will know what that means) or physically unconscious. In the old days a defence would have been "well, she didn't say no" (which she obviously couldn't if she was unconscious). Modern interpretation of the law doesn't allow that defence.

That is basically the situation and problem prosecutors face. They can't just say that the alleged victim was drunk and therefore there was no consent, they have to demonstrate that the victim was incapable of consenting. The victim not recalling events doesn't mean consent was not given either, because the loss on consciousness (and memory of most of the night) might have happened some time after the sexual encounter.

Mostly that would come from witness statements, ie people who saw the actual event, or saw the victim before, during and after in an incapacitated state. That is what happened in the Steubenville case. But in this case they apparently don't have witnesses (yet), so, that is a problem. The evidence available are photos of some sort, and rumours.

Rumours don't count in court, no matter how hurtfull they might be, since rumours tend to be wildly exaggerated and inaccurate (which we saw In the Steubenville case as well). The photo's probably don't show actual sex either, otherwise charges would have been laid when the complaint was first made.

That is most likely why charges were not laid at the time, there was a complaint but not enough admissible evidence.

Btw, her age isn't a factor in this case since she was old enough to consent in this instance.
 
  • #88
gitana1 said:
As an attorney and a human, it is disgusting rubbish to me.

In many jurisdictions, a drunk person cannot consent to sex so depending on the level of intoxication, sex with such a person can be rape. Conversely, intense inebriation may be a mitigating factor in a crime.

A couple of things though: One, being so drunk that your actions may be somewhat compromised means you are probably too drunk to sustain an erection. Two, alcohol doesn't cause people to become different people. It brings out what may be hidden. So if someone is raping another human while drunk, they are a rapist.

Three, there is a vast difference between a teen who has it in them to get drunk and be promiscuous and one who has it in them to get drunk and take advantage of another: The former only hurts themselves. The latter is a predator.

Shades of gray, huh? When we begin equating self-injurious behavior to predatory behavior, we have lost all semblance of character and humanity as a society. Something smells like 🤬🤬🤬🤬 shaming to me.
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You are wrong on a couple of points. People can easily become drunk enough to behave irrationally and still be capable of having sex. Also, many of these cases don't involve actual sex, but some sort of sexual activity instead. No erection is required for that.

Being intoxicated doesn't "bring out your true self", what it brings out is your subconscious and that can be radically different from your conscious behaviour. When you are operating only at a subconscious level, all people revert to a primal state, one in which their inhibitions (and the rules of society) don't enter into the equation.

The boys that are doing these things are almost certainly drunk themselves, and in some cases probably as heavily intoxicated as the girls.

How do assign blame in situations like that? The implicit argument is that the girls must be victims and the boys must be victimisers. If you are a girl, and get drunk, your behaviour is excused, but if you are a boy, you are held accountable. There is a double standard there.
 
  • #89
Usually I agree with the wisdom of the law that shields minors from having their identities published and especially before they are proven guilty of an offence. But in cases such as this, it would be immensely satisfying to see their identities revealed, and I believe that outcome would also be a deterrent. Halifax suburbs are such small towns that the boys involved are surely known. Now, I'd like to see the digital trail of that photo published- who took it, who loaded it onto the internet, who circulated it where- a public paper trail on the front page of the newspaper.

Yes, I know wishing to see minors publicly responsible for their actions is not politically correct, but there needs to be a functioning middle ground. The alternative should not be letting them avoid consequences altogether, as seems to have happened here.
Background information:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/348258
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...ns-bullying-rehtaeh-boys-support-posters.html
 
  • #90
  • #91
This story seems to get worse & worse. Where were all the adults when all of this was going on between the teenagers? Why did no one intervene?

To me - much of this comes back to lack of supervision/leadership/responsibility on the parts of all the parents - quite possibly including Rehtaeh's parents, although I realize that seems harsh now that they are in mourning. I am very sorry for their loss. However, the whole situation has to be looked at - not just the boys' behaviour, but the girls' behaviour, and the adults' behaviour, too, IMO.

If these boys were 'trouble', as is suggested in the article above, then why were these 15 year old girls allowed to be hanging out/drinking with them? And why were these underaged kids allowed to be drinking together in one of the parents' homes at all, let alone without supervision?

Why didn't LE press some charges or dig deeper, at least, when there was the confrontation between the two groups of boys? With a stabbing! And pics of an alleged assault being widely circulated, and a young woman being harassed... at what point were they going to try to put a stop to this situation that was spiraling out of control?

Too many failures on the parts of the adults in this situation, IMO. Parents, teachers, school boards, LE... a bunch of kids acting like thugs and bullies and no one intervenes? I don't get it.

I hope the new investigation is more thorough and charges are laid where appropriate, and that the community gets a clear sense that justice has been served, openly and publicly for all to see.
 
  • #92
  • #93
  • #94
Tugela said:
Here is the latest report on this story with new developments:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/B...cuted+Rehtaeh+Parsons+case/8298287/story.html

It would appear that the parents version may not be that accurate.
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The fact that the friend returned to the party with her mom to urge the girl to go with them ... and still she refused ... speaks volumes. It's tragic, but there is now a situation where a teenage boy has been accused in the media and he wasn't even at the party. People should leave these situations in the hands of the police.
 
  • #95
otto said:
The fact that the friend returned to the party with her mom to urge the girl to go with them ... and still she refused ... speaks volumes. It's tragic, but there is now a situation where a teenage boy has been accused in the media and he wasn't even at the party. People should leave these situations in the hands of the police.
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Yes, and also, people shouldn't believe everything a mother says. Sometimes, things are COMPLETELY different and there IS another side to the story. Despite what those creepy guys with masks and digitized voices say anonymously.

From what I've read online in different places with screen shots of tweets, and other things that would make this board much less sympathetic to her, etc., this is NOT a prosecutable case, and no crime occurred. But since that's all rumor I can't post specifically what the details are.
 
  • #96
JeannaT said:
Yes, and also, people shouldn't believe everything a mother says. Sometimes, things are COMPLETELY different and there IS another side to the story. Despite what those creepy guys with masks and digitized voices say anonymously.

From what I've read online in different places with screen shots of tweets, and other things that would make this board much less sympathetic to her, etc., this is NOT a prosecutable case, and no crime occurred. But since that's all rumor I can't post specifically what the details are.
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It appears that it may be a prosecutable case... and that a crime may have occured... 2 boys have been arrested but it appears that no charges have been laid yet -

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-males-arrested-rehtaeh-parsons-case-rcmp-1.1402471

Two males were arrested Thursday in the case of Rehtaeh Parsons, the 17-year-old Halifax girl who died following a suicide attempt in what her family says stemmed from months of online bullying after an alleged sexual assault.
The RCMP and Halifax police said Thursday they arrested two males at their homes in Halifax at around 8 a.m. and took them into custody where they were being questioned. The Mounties did not release further information on the males arrested, including what they were arrested for.
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The arrests come a day after a new law took effect in the province that allows people to sue if they or their children are being cyberbullied. Victims can also seek a protection order that could place restrictions on or help identify the cyberbully.
Justice Minister Ross Landry introduced the legislation weeks after Rehtaeh's death.
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http://www.cbc.ca/mt_ept/stories/2013/08/08/2-arrested-in-rehtaeh-parsons-cyberbullying-case-1.html

RCMP Cpl. Scott MacRae said police can hold the pair for up to 24 hours, after that they must either be charged or released.
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Leah Parsons told CBC News that police came to her house and told her of the arrests at 8:10 a.m.

She said police have told her who was arrested. She said she knows the two arrested and they are "at the heart" of the incident, but added she cannot identify them.
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  • #97
Apparently the charges are for producing child 🤬🤬🤬🤬 due to the picture taken. The boys are adults now, but juveniles at the time of the alleged offence, so they are not identified.

Read more here.
 
  • #98
Too bad Rehtaeh didn't have the protection that the accused have r.e. not identifying them since they passed on their photos of her! Justice is so twisted.

Police said the evidence did not support sexual assault charges against the two men.
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“While people may feel they know the identity of the two accused, anyone who releases their names or other information that could identify them would be in breach of the Youth Criminal Justice Act and that person could face charges,” he said. "Similarly, we cannot and we will not tolerate vigilante actions against the accused."
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Blech! I do believe this info has already made it out a while ago anyhow.

Interesting also that persistence in this case finally led to charges and law changes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/08/09/ns-rehtaeh-parsons-charges.html
 
  • #99
matou said:
Too bad Rehtaeh didn't have the protection that the accused have r.e. not identifying them since they passed on their photos of her! Justice is so twisted.




Blech! I do believe this info has already made it out a while ago anyhow.

Interesting also that persistence in this case finally led to charges and law changes.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/08/09/ns-rehtaeh-parsons-charges.html
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Did I read that article right that the police had not even interviewed the 4 accused of the rape until yesterday?
 
  • #100
PrairieWind said:
Did I read that article right that the police had not even interviewed the 4 accused of the rape until yesterday?
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I don't see that mentioned in the article. Can you pull a quote?
 
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