Related Issues and Food for Thought

[cansleuther]

Seems like we keep coming back to the same conclusion...DM the boss leader giving orders to his followers.

It will be interesting to see if the investigators and the Crown have come to the same conclusion, or if this is just a rumour that has somehow gained traction to the point of it being viewed as fact.

If it is true that MS was only following DM's orders, it may have been in MS's best interest to confess early on. In the Billy Mason case, Jeremy Hall's "accomplice" Jason Lusted confessed and pleaded guilty to helping Hall kidnap and kill Mason, as well as helping him burn his body and destroy evidence. He was only charged with accessory after the fact to murder and sentenced to ten years in prison, which was later reduced to 7.5 years due to his co-operation.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2268853-clairmont-we-burned-him-together-/

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2253967-accessory-in-billy-mason-murder-case-gets-sentence-reduced/

JMO

 

[Arnie M]

If it is true that MS was only following DM's orders, it may have been in MS's best interest to confess early on.
JMO

And if he is talking , that could be where the WM and LB murder info comes from.

.

 

[SnooperDuper]

It will be interesting to see if the investigators and the Crown have come to the same conclusion, or if this is just a rumour that has somehow gained traction to the point of it being viewed as fact.

If it is true that MS was only following DM's orders, it may have been in MS's best interest to confess early on. In the Billy Mason case, Jeremy Hall's "accomplice" Jason Lusted confessed and pleaded guilty to helping Hall kidnap and kill Mason, as well as helping him burn his body and destroy evidence. He was only charged with accessory after the fact to murder and sentenced to ten years in prison, which was later reduced to 7.5 years due to his co-operation.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2268853-clairmont-we-burned-him-together-/

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2253967-accessory-in-billy-mason-murder-case-gets-sentence-reduced/

JMO

Extending the analogy:

JH was the leader, JL the accomplice
They burnt the body on the leader's (JH's) farm

TB and LB were burnt in DM's incinerator on DM's farm.

I don't think DM can whine about being used and taken advantage of...I mean, he used my gun and incinerator without asking!!!? DM was the one with the equipment to kill and make someone disappear.

Maybe that's why DM has been giving MS the harsh stink eye in court recently. Chatter. MS is after all in general population and I am sure LE hoped he would chat up some new friends.

 

[Juballee]

And if he is talking , that could be where the WM and LB murder info comes from.

.

Except they added more charges on to MS at the same time, and they didn't reduce his original charge. I doubt that to get out of one murder he confessed to another and some breaches to boot. That wouldn't make sense, in my opinion.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Except they added more charges on to MS at the same time, and they didn't reduce his original charge. I doubt that to get out of one murder he confessed to another and some breaches to boot. That wouldn't make sense, in my opinion.

And, LE has no incentive to make a deal with MS anyway given the strength of the evidence that has been collected.

Besides, DM could reward MS handsomely for his silence. Why talk when that pot of gold exists?

 

[swedie]

Except they added more charges on to MS at the same time, and they didn't reduce his original charge. I doubt that to get out of one murder he confessed to another and some breaches to boot. That wouldn't make sense, in my opinion.

Why wouldn't it make sense? We don't know at this point whether MS's charges will be reduced. Charges can change up to the time of the trials didn't you know? Just because we haven't heard, doesn't mean it's not on the table between the Crown and MS's defense or cannot happen down the road.

If MS spilled everything, every detail, and he was present at the time of LB's and TB's murders, but he did not commit them, nor did he know their murders were going to happen, he would still be charged with first degree murder. If that was the case, why wouldn't he talk? He didn't do the actual murders. It could help him in the long run with a possible reduced sentence.

Things can change from day to day. For all we know, MS could be speaking with his attorney right now and DM could be confessing right now. The only thing set in stone from start to finish is the evidence.

ALL MOO.

 

[Juballee]

Why wouldn't it make sense? We don't know at this point whether MS's charges will be reduced. Charges can change up to the time of the trials didn't you know? Just because we haven't heard, doesn't mean it's not on the table between the Crown and MS's defense or cannot happen down the road.

If MS spilled everything, every detail, and he was present at the time of LB's and TB's murders, but he did not commit them, nor did he know their murders were going to happen, he would still be charged with first degree murder. If that was the case, why wouldn't he talk? He didn't do the actual murders. It could help him in the long run with a possible reduced sentence.

Things can change from day to day. For all we know, MS could be speaking with his attorney right now and DM could be confessing right now. The only thing set in stone from start to finish is the evidence.

ALL MOO.

So, by this scenario, when someone confesses to a lesser crime, they should expect to be charged with a far greater crime first, so that the world should think that they are a murderer when in fact they are actually helping LE? I'm sorry, but that still doesn't make sense to me. Why would anyone cooperate with LE if LE routinely charged people with more serious crimes when they confess to minor ones? There is no incentive there to cooperate if that is the case.

And even if that were the case, couldn't it apply to DM as easily as it could apply to MS?

Also, I believe that the scenario about someone not knowing that a crime is going to happen and not participating but confessing afterwards to being an accessory after the fact does not automatically mean a first degree murder charge unless confinement was involved, or some other mitigating factor, if I remember correctly.

All my opinion only.

 

[Juballee]

Extending the analogy:

JH was the leader, JL the accomplice
They burnt the body on the leader's (JH's) farm

TB and LB were burnt in DM's incinerator on DM's farm.

I don't think DM can whine about being used and taken advantage of...I mean, he used my gun and incinerator without asking!!!? DM was the one with the equipment to kill and make someone disappear.

Maybe that's why DM has been giving MS the harsh stink eye in court recently. Chatter. MS is after all in general population and I am sure LE hoped he would chat up some new friends.

That might make sense if it wasn't common for a dominant personality, a psychopath or a bully to routinely use the belongings of their submissive friends, normal people or victims, often against the person's wishes or best interests as well.

We have heard that DM was made fun of in school for being a little different (dog biscuits), and that he changed schools and had to be made to graduate, and those are all signs of being bullied. The only thing I remember hearing about MS in school was something about him selling cigarettes to underage school kids, and them having a negative impression of him.

Personally I would like to hear more actual evidence before I decide who I think the leader was, I don't think any of that is enough to decide. This is all just my opinion.

 

[swedie]

So, by this scenario, when someone confesses to a lesser crime, they should expect to be charged with a far greater crime first, so that the world should think that they are a murderer when in fact they are actually helping LE? I'm sorry, but that still doesn't make sense to me. Why would anyone cooperate with LE if LE routinely charged people with more serious crimes when they confess to minor ones? There is no incentive there to cooperate if that is the case.

And even if that were the case, couldn't it apply to DM as easily as it could apply to MS?

Also, I believe that the scenario about someone not knowing that a crime is going to happen and not participating but confessing afterwards to being an accessory after the fact does not automatically mean a first degree murder charge unless confinement was involved, or some other mitigating factor, if I remember correctly.

All my opinion only.

It seemed inevitable the second suspect was going to be charged with murder also because evidence/witness saw the three drive off together. That would count as forcible confinement. The charge came even before investigators had a chance to talk to MS. Until LE had all their ducks in a row and spoke to MS getting his version of what happened...sure it makes sense. If DM told MS they were just going to steal TB's truck and abandon TB on the side of the road, but DM murdered TB, MS would still face first degree because of their plan to confine TB until they released him. CN has the charge of accessory after the fact or helping DM to escape, but not sure if it could apply to MS.

Maybe MS hopped in the Yukon and went another way shortly after tailing TB's truck, with no knowledge of what happened after he drove away from the end of TB's lane way. Interestingly enough, MS just happened to be walking down the street (the day of his arrest) and next thing he knew he was being taken to the ground by a SWAT team. Doesn't that seem odd he didn't try to disguise himself? Would he really be out walking the streets, and busy ones at that, if he knew he was wanted for first degree murder? Wouldn't you think he would have gone into hiding? Now that is something which doesn't make sense to me. MOO.

Type of murder Nature
First degree was planned and deliberate
was contracted
was committed against an identified peace officer
while committing or attempting to commit the hijacking of an aircraft
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit sexual assault with a weapon
while committing or attempting to commit aggravated sexual assault
while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping and forcible confinement
during a hostage taking
while committing criminal harassment
was committed during terrorist activity
while using explosives in association with a criminal organization
while committing intimidation.[5]
Second degree any murder which is not first degree murder

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Canadian_law)

 

[Arnie M]

Except they added more charges on to MS at the same time, and they didn't reduce his original charge. I doubt that to get out of one murder he confessed to another and some breaches to boot. That wouldn't make sense, in my opinion.

It wouldnt make sense to me either

Here is what I was thinking .... it is convoluted , and I dont actually think it went this way ....

DM killed LB and MS was involved somehow and both are charged (typically that is how it works)

DM killed WM and only he was charged

DM killed TB and MS was involved and both are charged (again , typical)

Both (equally) face life in prison without parole .... but if MS confessed his part , supplied evidence to police that they might not otherwise have found on their own (regarding WM and LB for example) and was completely cooperative with police he may be trying to lever a smaller sentence .... lets say 20 years and possible parole

THE ONLY WAY police or prosecutors would even consider such a "deal" was if MS , and MS only , was able to provide them testimony and evidence in the LB and WM deaths.

And of course providing MS never pulled any actual triggers

I dont happen to believe that theory , but back of my mind I wonder how LE are able to go straight to trial on those other two deaths , after years of having nothing.

 

[Arnie M]

.

I have also considered we could switch the places of DM and MS in my above post .... ie: MS is the "actual killer" and DM is the accomplice ..... EXCEPT for the fact that DM , and DM alone , has been charged with the death of WM.

And if true , it makes DM a cold blooded killer at least one time without accomplices , that alone is very revealing .

Having said that , I still have an extremely hard time believing someone could kill their own father like that , but that's just me.

I consider LE may have tossed the death of WM into the mix to let a judge or jury decide , that way they have done their part and can close the file.

 

[swedie]

That might make sense if it wasn't common for a dominant personality, a psychopath or a bully to routinely use the belongings of their submissive friends, normal people or victims, often against the person's wishes or best interests as well.

We have heard that DM was made fun of in school for being a little different (dog biscuits), and that he changed schools and had to be made to graduate, and those are all signs of being bullied. The only thing I remember hearing about MS in school was something about him selling cigarettes to underage school kids, and them having a negative impression of him.

Personally I would like to hear more actual evidence before I decide who I think the leader was, I don't think any of that is enough to decide. This is all just my opinion.

BBM - I don't recall your statement being correct DM was made fun of at school for eating dog biscuits. IIRC a former classmate said he told DM eating dog biscuits was gross and weird. Some former schoolmates did not realize DM came from wealth as he did not dress the part nor did his father drive him to school in an expensive, classy, vehicle, but that of an old beat up truck. I think it's important to keep in mind, we still do not know the financial status of the Millards then and now. Perhaps WM was broke and CM paid for DM to go to private school. :dunno:

So with those things in mind, we have no idea whether DM was bullied, a bully or accepted by his peers regardless of how he acted, what he wore or what he ate. We have in the past speculated, but again the facts have not been presented yet. To say that someone who was bullied would become a follower or vice versa, I don't buy it. It all depends on how the person copes and deals with their situation, the severity and the support system around them that would be the indicator on how they eventually turn out. I know people who have been bullied and are followers, I know people who have been bullied and are leaders. Then there are the bullies who end up following or leading. They are all unique cases.

As far as MS selling cigarettes to under aged students ten to thirteen years ago, obviously it wouldn't be impressive to some students, but to others who wanted cigarettes, MS was the go to guy with the smokes kids could buy a smoke or two for some pocket changes because they couldn't buy them in the store legally. MS was probably one out of many who sold cigarettes at school. Not really a big deal if you know what gets sold in schools nowadays...sadly. MOO.

 

[swedie]

It wouldnt make sense to me either

Here is what I was thinking .... it is convoluted , and I dont actually think it went this way ....

DM killed LB and MS was involved somehow and both are charged (typically that is how it works)

DM killed WM and only he was charged

DM killed TB and MS was involved and both are charged (again , typical)

Both (equally) face life in prison without parole .... but if MS confessed his part , supplied evidence to police that they might not otherwise have found on their own (regarding WM and LB for example) and was completely cooperative with police he may be trying to lever a smaller sentence .... lets say 20 years and possible parole

THE ONLY WAY police or prosecutors would even consider such a "deal" was if MS , and MS only , was able to provide them testimony and evidence in the LB and WM deaths.

And of course providing MS never pulled any actual triggers

I dont happen to believe that theory , but back of my mind I wonder how LE are able to go straight to trial on those other two deaths , after years of having nothing.

BBM - Arnie the AG has only bypassed the PH on TB's case, not WM or LB cases. MOO

 

[swedie]

.

I have also considered we could switch the places of DM and MS in my above post .... ie: MS is the "actual killer" and DM is the accomplice ..... EXCEPT for the fact that DM , and DM alone , has been charged with the death of WM.

And if true , it makes DM a cold blooded killer at least one time without accomplices , that alone is very revealing .

Having said that , I still have an extremely hard time believing someone could kill their own father like that , but that's just me.

I consider LE may have tossed the death of WM into the mix to let a judge or jury decide , that way they have done their part and can close the file.

No it's not just you Arnie, I totally agree. How could someone murder their own father in cold blood? Obviously one has to have some sort of mental issues to carry out something so evil and heartless. And then to write the obit DM wrote...very bizarre.

I see WM's murder as a tell tale sign. If DM was wicked enough to murder his own father, the man who raised and supported him all of his life, the man who allowed him to ride on his coat tails (when DM should have been living his own individual life, separate from his father's) prior to WM's murder, DM would think nothing of murdering a young woman who was a thorn in his side and then murder a man he didn't even know. I suggest there could be something not right in DM's brain which does not allow him to fully connect with people, to have compassion, remorse or feelings. IMO it's similar to those who suffer from autism. And of course this is not to suggest those who have autism are bad people, it's just a perception and MOO. Years ago my neighbour had a son with Aspergers (a form of autism), he did not have the ability to know/rationalize that when he hit his siblings or others and they cried, that he had physically hurt them. There was not that brain and physical connection for him to understand it was wrong and the pain they suffered by his violent actions. Quite scary to say the least.

https://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism

ALL MOO.

 

[Arnie M]

BBM - Arnie the AG has only bypassed the PH on TB's case, not WM or LB cases. MOO

Really ???? .... not sure how I missed that .... thanks !!!!

 

[swedie]

Really ???? .... not sure how I missed that .... thanks !!!!

The Crown asked that the PH be bypassed in WM and LB's case but it hasn't happened.

 

[Arnie M]

The Crown asked that the PH be bypassed in WM and LB's case but it hasn't happened.

Ok .... Gocha' ... so it still comes down to the crown feeling it has a strong case .... and how so ???? .... did a whole bunch of evidence fall out of the sky onto their laps ??? ... I doubt it ... maybe they found evidence once they started looking close .... or somebody is talking ... and we know DM is not

Could make for an interesting scenario , DM may want a vigorous defense , MS may want to plead guilty for practical reasons.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

.

I have also considered we could switch the places of DM and MS in my above post .... ie: MS is the "actual killer" and DM is the accomplice ..... EXCEPT for the fact that DM , and DM alone , has been charged with the death of WM.

And if true , it makes DM a cold blooded killer at least one time without accomplices , that alone is very revealing .

Having said that , I still have an extremely hard time believing someone could kill their own father like that , but that's just me.

I consider LE may have tossed the death of WM into the mix to let a judge or jury decide , that way they have done their part and can close the file.

MS with his girlfriend lived in WM's home. On the evening when police came to indentify a suicide, MS and girlfriend happened not to be at home. BUT who knows if DM thought of a suicide, MB and Ex also, police also - only MS perhaps knew it wasn't because he had shot? Certainly at times MS was an eyesore for Wayne and perhaps there was trouble before shooting? To whom the gun belonged isn't any evidence, I think. The gun was just available.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Ok .... Gocha' ... so it still comes down to the crown feeling it has a strong case .... and how so ???? .... did a whole bunch of evidence fall out of the sky onto their laps ??? ... I doubt it ... maybe they found evidence once they started looking close .... or somebody is talking ... and we know DM is not

Could make for an interesting scenario , DM may want a vigorous defense , MS may want to plead guilty for practical reasons.

Just a correction here. The Crown has never requested a direct indictment in WM's case, only LB's.

In addition to the Bosma and Babcock murders, Dellen Millard has also been charged with the murder of his father, Wayne. No direct indictment is being sought in that case.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2014/10/crown-seeks-direct-indictment-in-laura-babcock-murder-case.html

 

[Alethea Dice]

.

I have also considered we could switch the places of DM and MS in my above post .... ie: MS is the "actual killer" and DM is the accomplice ..... EXCEPT for the fact that DM , and DM alone , has been charged with the death of WM.

And if true , it makes DM a cold blooded killer at least one time without accomplices , that alone is very revealing .

Having said that , I still have an extremely hard time believing someone could kill their own father like that , but that's just me.

I consider LE may have tossed the death of WM into the mix to let a judge or jury decide , that way they have done their part and can close the file.

This could very well be the case. No direct indictment was requested for WM's death, so perhaps they aren't so confident about that one.

Another possibility is that they could find no evidence to link MS to WM's death, even though he was living there at some point during that time and there were conflicts with the living arrangements.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2014/05/accused-murderer-mark-smich-lived-at-home-of-wayne-and-dellen-millard.html

JMO