REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[marspiter]

Let's not get into the felony murder debacle,, err I mean Debate.

The only reason I posted that information after you posted yours on murder 1, was to show that they also fill the bill and I could see her being found guilty on things other than First degree premed murder KWIM?

Agreed.

I just thought that post explained well how lesser charges worked and that she could be found guilty of them even if she's isn't charged with one.

 

[JBean]

Agreed.

I just thought that post explained well how lesser charges worked and that she could be found guilty of them even if she's isn't charged with one.

I didn't post lesser charges, I posted charges that she is currently facing.
So we are not considering lesser charges unless someone else here thinks she might be found guilty of that. But I think I am the only one that may feel that way, as I can see 2nd degree murder being appropriate. I also think she could be found guilty of the other things she is charged with, and I posted them after you posted the first charge.
The question is, will she be found guilty of first degree premeditated murder?

 

[Kentjbkent]

Agreed.

I just thought that post explained well how lesser charges worked and that she could be found guilty of them even if she's isn't charged with one.

Where is this information coming from?

 

[LambChop]

I say yes and I think SA will show it's not just the fact that Caylee was in the way but because of what was going on in her home with CA. When KC told Lee, "Maybe it's because I'm a spiteful *****" did we not all think that KC was probably repeating what was said to her by CA at the time they had the fight on the 15th. I think somehow poor Caylee was caught in the middle of those two and KC blew and eventually took it out on her daughter. Three pieces of duct tape points to rage to me when one piece would have kept the child quiet.

To be honest I do not think she will get the DP because of what WILL come out at the trial. I think CA will take a beating. Defense will make KC's life look like a living he!! with her relationship problems with her mother. They have already started. Myself, I would like to see her get LWOP and someone do studies to find out why she did it and maybe help some other mothers in the future who can not cope. JMO

 

[Nore]

There is no logical or reasonable reason to put tape over another human's nose and mouth airways except to prevent the other human from screaming and/or breathing.

There is no recorded case of a parent taping over their deceased child's NOSE and MOUTH. Not ever. I challenge anyone to find a single occasion of this happening. There is no reason what-so-ever to do so.

LOTS of murderers have used duct tape as a "household weapon" to suffocate the victim by taping over the victim's face.

-----------------------
I agree. i just finished spending over an hour re~reading the entire autopsy report. I wish everyone would read it! It is a wealth of info..One thing that stands out to me is that this is from the M.E. and Profs. who are not on either "side" of this case,they just tell what is.I forgot many of her little bones were found buried in the muck caused by the heavy rain..A good read.:angel:

 

[Kentjbkent]

I didn't post lesser charges, I posted charges that she is currently facing.
So we are not considering lesser charges unless someone else here thinks she might be found guilty of that. But I think I am the only one that may feel that way, as I can see 2nd degree murder being appropriate. I also think she could be found guilty of the other things she is charged with, and I posted them after you posted the first charge.
The question is, will she be found guilty of first degree premeditated murder?

After following the recent Jason Lenz child murder case in Lake County FL (defended by Richard Hornsby) and comparing it to KC's case, I think it is a very very strong possibility now.

Mr. Lenz was charged with first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse of a 2 yr old.

KC is charged with first degree murder and aggravated child abuse (I think?)

Mr. Lenz was the last person known to be with the living 2 yr old.

KC was the last person known to be with a living Caylee.

Mr. Lenz claimed he tripped on a pair of slippers and dropped the child.

KC claims she dropped the child off with an imaginanny.

Evidence in Mr Lenz case included the severe head injury to child resulting in death, as well as hole in the wall above his bed.

Evidence in KC case is massive but foremost is duct tape on face of remains and evidence in KC car.

The jury in Mr. Lenz' case found the brutality of the injury to the child resulted in premediation as he was convicted of First Degree Murder as well as Aggravated Child Abuse.

I believe the brutality in the placement of duct tape on Caylee's body in itself will most likely result in a conviction of First Degree Murder as well.

 

[Aedrys]

And don't forget, it won't just be the evidence. You also have a totally nonsympathetic client with no one willing to come forward and say one good thing about her except her deluded family. Also, she will lose control in court and only make herself look worse. It's not just the evidence that helps the jury make up their mind about a defendant. It's also lack of any evidence that would make her look innocent in the least, and actions and nonverbal behavior from the defendant herself that also contributes to a jury's decision. All of that together with evidence will definitely net Casey LWOP.

 

[JBean]

This dude was left alone in a car with his girfriends 3 mo old baby girl Alexa. She was fine when mom left.
Mom retunrs to the car and the baby is clearly in distress. Baby dies from blunt force trauma inflicted by the boyfriend while mom was out of the car.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2010/jan/14/141625/jury-deliberates-verdict-baby-death-case/
SEBRING - It took roughly three-and-a-half hours for a Highlands County jury to find Edgar Otero guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter in connection with the November 2007 death of 3-month-old Alexa Hall, the daughter of his former girlfriend.

Otero, 31, was originally charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse.
The jury of seven women and five men left the courtroom at 11:46 a.m. Thursday to start deliberating.


http://florida-issues.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-penalty-sought-in-2-murder-cases.html

Originally, investigators thought that Hall died of shaken baby syndrome, but an autopsy by the District 13

Medical Examiner's Office in Hillsborough County later showed that she died of blunt force trauma.
On the morning of Nov. 12, Brandy Hall, the baby's mother, and Otero, reportedly brought the child in to the Florida Hospital emergency room for an unknown sickness.


But then again:

FORT PIERCE, Fla., Feb. 4 (UPI) -- A 32-year-old Florida woman will spend her life in prison after pleading guilty to killing her 8-year-old son on Christmas Day 2008, a prosecutor says.
TCPalm.com reported Thursday Eryn Allegra of Port St. Lucie pleaded guilty to premeditated first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse charges in a plea deal with prosecutors that lets her avoid a possible death penalty.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010...-in-Christmas-Day-killing/UPI-19381265302996/

 

[Snaz]

TYpically the ME reports the Cause and Manner of death when they can be determined. But she was unable to determine both in Caylee's case.
The ME may very well say on the stand that in her professional opinion the COD was asphyxiation from the duct tape, but cannot report it with medical certainty because she does not have enough evidence.

I will take that as fact, it would be good enough for me when and if she says that.

Didn't Dr. G rule the manner of death to be homicide?

 

[JBean]

Didn't Dr. G rule the manner of death to be homicide?

yes, but I was referring to the cause of death if you read the other posts. But without reading them I can see why that would be ambiguous. Sorry.

IOW< she could not determine both, she could only determine one.(manner)

 

[LambChop]

This dude was left alone in a car with his girfriends 3 mo old baby girl Alexa. She was fine when mom left.
Mom retunrs to the car and the baby is clearly in distress. Baby dies from blunt force trauma inflicted by the boyfriend while mom was out of the car.

http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2010/jan/14/141625/jury-deliberates-verdict-baby-death-case/
SEBRING - It took roughly three-and-a-half hours for a Highlands County jury to find Edgar Otero guilty of the lesser offense of manslaughter in connection with the November 2007 death of 3-month-old Alexa Hall, the daughter of his former girlfriend.

Otero, 31, was originally charged with first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse.
The jury of seven women and five men left the courtroom at 11:46 a.m. Thursday to start deliberating.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2010...-in-Christmas-Day-killing/UPI-19381265302996/

http://florida-issues.blogspot.com/2008/03/death-penalty-sought-in-2-murder-cases.html

Originally, investigators thought that Hall died of shaken baby syndrome, but an autopsy by the District 13

Medical Examiner's Office in Hillsborough County later showed that she died of blunt force trauma.
On the morning of Nov. 12, Brandy Hall, the baby's mother, and Otero, reportedly brought the child in to the Florida Hospital emergency room for an unknown sickness.


But then again:

FORT PIERCE, Fla., Feb. 4 (UPI) -- A 32-year-old Florida woman will spend her life in prison after pleading guilty to killing her 8-year-old son on Christmas Day 2008, a prosecutor says.
TCPalm.com reported Thursday Eryn Allegra of Port St. Lucie pleaded guilty to premeditated first-degree murder and aggravated child abuse charges in a plea deal with prosecutors that lets her avoid a possible death penalty.

I think that is awful and they only took a little over 3 hours. An hour for each month this innocent child lived. You have to wonder was their decision based on the economic situation of the couple or for ethnic reasons. A child is a child and to deliberately harm them enough to cause their death is murder. A child can't protect themselves.

 

[LinasK]

I've wondered if KC made up a weak batch of chloroform and it possibly didn't work very well...perhaps that's the reason for the duct tape... the syringe of chloroform was in between a toilet paper roll in the bottle (I'm assuming to keep it from becoming exposed to too much light). I noticed her reaction in court when JA was giving his scenario of what could have happened to Caylee, it seemed to create a response from her that was really creepy IMO. Anyway....the evidence may seem circumstantial, but it sure looks really really bad for her. JMO

That's exactly what I think happened- she chloroformed her first (otherwise, why waste all that research?), then duct taped her to "seal the deal"/i.e. ensure Caylee wouldn't wake up and breathe again or scream.

 

[Snaz]

yes, but I was referring to the cause of death if you read the other posts. But without reading them I can see why that would be ambiguous. Sorry.

IOW< she could not determine both, she could only determine one.(manner)

Actually, I did read the other posts... but I do understand what you meant now.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[QueenD]

I think she will be found guilty of 1st degree murder. I hope she gets the DP. I think all child killers should automatically get the DP period!

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

While it has been opined that a jury that has been selected for a DP case may be more likely to convict (as bringing a guilty verdict but not necessarily on the DP portion) I also believe the same jury will be expecting the prosecution to fulfill the highest standards of all of the requirements for first-degree murder. I think their expectations might not be met with what is known as discovery at this point. I'm praying that whatever it is that SA is giving Judge Strickland to examine will satisfy those expectations.

Kind of a twist on "Those to whom much is given, much is expected." More like "To those whom much responsibility has been given, expect much." KWIM?

But this doesn't bother me all that much. I am of the opinion that as soon as she is put in prison that her own personal hell will begin. She will be there, whether it is now in prison or in the afterlife. DP or not, I think she'll be there as soon as the jury comes in with its finding. Obviously, MOO.

 

[rhornsby]

After following the recent Jason Lenz child murder case in Lake County FL (defended by Richard Hornsby) and comparing it to KC's case, I think it is a very very strong possibility now.

Mr. Lenz was charged with first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter and aggravated child abuse of a 2 yr old.

KC is charged with first degree murder and aggravated child abuse (I think?)

Mr. Lenz was the last person known to be with the living 2 yr old.

KC was the last person known to be with a living Caylee.

Mr. Lenz claimed he tripped on a pair of slippers and dropped the child.

KC claims she dropped the child off with an imaginanny.

Evidence in Mr Lenz case included the severe head injury to child resulting in death, as well as hole in the wall above his bed.

Evidence in KC case is massive but foremost is duct tape on face of remains and evidence in KC car.

The jury in Mr. Lenz' case found the brutality of the injury to the child resulted in premediation as he was convicted of First Degree Murder as well as Aggravated Child Abuse.

I believe the brutality in the placement of duct tape on Caylee's body in itself will most likely result in a conviction of First Degree Murder as well.

Actually, Mr. Lenz was not charged with a Premeditated killing - he was charged with First Degree Felony Murder (death occurred in commission of a felony).

In any event, his case will most likely be reversed on appeal. It is kind of hard to obtain a verdict to a lesser charge when the judge refused to instruct the jury on the third count he was charged with and refused to allow in exculpatory portions of his confession when the State played incriminating portions (Called the Rule of Completeness).

Anyway, check back with me in two years after I have handled the re-trial.

 

[JBean]

Actually, Mr. Lenz was not charged with a Premeditated killing - he was charged with First Degree Felony Murder (death occurred in commission of a felony).

In any event, his case will most likely be reversed on appeal. It is kind of hard to obtain a verdict to a lesser charge when the judge refused to instruct the jury on the third count he was charged with and refused to allow in exculpatory portions of his confession when the State played incriminating portions (Called the Rule of Completeness).

Anyway, check back with me in two years after I have handled the re-trial.

Thanks for that.

 

[RR0004]

Actually, Mr. Lenz was not charged with a Premeditated killing - he was charged with First Degree Felony Murder (death occurred in commission of a felony).

In any event, his case will most likely be reversed on appeal. It is kind of hard to obtain a verdict to a lesser charge when the judge refused to instruct the jury on the third count he was charged with and refused to allow in exculpatory portions of his confession when the State played incriminating portions (Called the Rule of Completeness).

Anyway, check back with me in two years after I have handled the re-trial.

Ah...another miscarriage of justice? I think not. I don't envy you. How much time is "enough" for someone who kills their own child?

 

[Searchfortruth]

I believe very strongly that Casey will be convicted of first degree murder. Admittedly, I am pro prosecution, but I can't see how this (overwhelming) amount of evidence can be dismissed, by any jury. I can't remember seeing a case with more evidence than this one has. Even though it's circumstantial, it's that evidence that will tell the complete story about Caylee's death and Casey's actions after. When I try to remember all of the evidence presented so far, I can't, because there is just too much. There is not one shred of evidence that points to anyone, but Casey. No gray area here.

I don't know about her getting the DP though. Floridas track record on females sentenced to death is not very promising. LWOP, IMO, would be a far greater punishment for Casey.

 

[Kentjbkent]

Actually, Mr. Lenz was not charged with a Premeditated killing - he was charged with First Degree Felony Murder (death occurred in commission of a felony).

In any event, his case will most likely be reversed on appeal. It is kind of hard to obtain a verdict to a lesser charge when the judge refused to instruct the jury on the third count he was charged with and refused to allow in exculpatory portions of his confession when the State played incriminating portions (Called the Rule of Completeness).

Anyway, check back with me in two years after I have handled the re-trial.

So Jason Lenz was charged with First Degree Murder but premeditation did NOT have to be proven

And Casey Anthony is charged with First Degree Murder but premeditation WILL have to be proven?

I am just not understanding the difference?

MR Hornsby,

Can you explain why lesser offenses were not included during the first trial?