REVISIT Does LE have enough evidence to Convict Casey on 1st Degree Murder?

[JBean]

Citation.

Hello Wudge, so good to see you.I am most anxious to get your take on this case and was hoping you would join in.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

At the end of motions-in-limine (evidence issues have been ruled upon and the Judge is the jury in a bench trial) the defense would move to dismiss based on insufficient evidence to support the charges.

A directed verdict would be the next related motion.

As for your belief that inculpatory evidence from sources beyond the cited sources supports premeditation, what is that evidence?

It has been my understanding that at the close of motions in limine, there is no way to know what will unfold as the prosecution puts on a case.
Correct, the motions in limine go only to questions of evidence and the admissability of matters as designated in those motions.

The next motion, for a required finding of not guilty would come at the close of the State's evidence.

The motion for a directed verdict, unlike a motion for a required find of not guilty, is appropriate at the close of ALL evidence...both the State and the defendant.
And if you are talking a directed verdict, a JNOV, so to speak (judgment not withstanding the jury's verdict) then the trial is done and the jury has delivered a verdict. You cannot ask a Judge to direct a verdict unless there actually is a verdict.

Unlike a civil proceeding, a capital offense trial will not be drawn to a 1 sided conclusion without the state having the opportuunity to present it's case.

Per premeditation...I did not say they would find premeditation as I do not know what evidence is behind closed doors. I said there would be a conviction for first degree murder. I never used the word premeditation.
This conviction is equally attainable by a showing that Caylee was killed during aggravated child abuse--under Florida law that is also first degree murder and a capital crime.
I believe that there is sufficient evidence to prove the elements of murder 1, beyond a reasonable doubt. it is based upon gut feelings and experiences. Again, I cannot know the hidden evidence but I don't think they would get the indictment unless they had meat to throw in the stew.
jmho

This is just my opinion...I am not arguing. I'm pretty sure you asked me to explain my post.:blowkiss:

 

[MiraclesHappen]

That was very interesting. My brother had told me the same thing but I really thought he was just talking about in our state. I did not realize it was a USSC decision.

I am hoping whoever posted the case pops into this thread. Yes it was a good read. Always learning something knew!

And they raised some interesting questions...such as why bother to ask on the verdict card if the murder 1 is by premeditation or by aggravated abuse when it counts for nothing under this theory anyway. What's the point?
They never really answered it..typical.:blowkiss:

 

[Wudge]

Hello Wudge, so good to see you.I am most anxious to get your take on this case and was hoping you would join in.

Hello JBean, I trust all is well with you.

It's impossible for me to see the evidence source that would prove premeditation (murder one) or malice aforethought (murder two) beyond a reasonable doubt.

Some posters have mentioned LE air sampling the trunk for chloroform. However, I know of no case precedent that provides for any such evidence being admitted to the level of inculpatory evidence, which evidence law requires.

I remember having the same pre-trial argument on the dog tracking evidence in the Peterson case. I said then if it was admitted, it would only be admitted as corroborative evidence. That proved to be true.

In any event, sufficiency of evidence to prove premeditation, malice aforethought or any unlawful killing will almost assuredly be the central issue.

 

[gawdess]

Wow the results are overwhelmingly in favor of "Yes". Amazing stuff. I just keep praying they find Ms. Caylee soon.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

Per premeditation...I did not say they would find premeditation as I do not know what evidence is behind closed doors. I said there would be a conviction for first degree murder. I never used the word premeditation.
This conviction is equally attainable by a showing that Caylee was killed during aggravated child abuse--under Florida law that is also first degree murder and a capital crime.
I believe that there is sufficient evidence to prove the elements of murder 1, beyond a reasonable doubt. it is based upon gut feelings and experiences.

SNIP

This is just my opinion...I am not arguing. I'm pretty sure you asked me to explain my post.:blowkiss:

Whether premeditation or aggravated child abuse murder, the source of the required clear, unyielding and legally sufficient evidence does not show through, and gut feeling and experience will not suffice.

 

[Salem]

After watching NG tonight and hearing about the body fluids on the trashbag - I think they have what they need.

Salem

 

[Wudge]

After watching NG tonight and hearing about the body fluids on the trashbag - I think they have what they need.

Salem

How could alleged trace fluids from a dead body prove premeditation or malice aforethought or even aggravated child abuse?

 

[elfie]

How could alleged trace fluids from a dead body prove premeditation or malice aforethought or even aggravated child abuse?

Simply not reporting Caylee's disappearance should be grounds for the abuse charge.

 

[Wudge]

Simply not reporting Caylee's disappearance should be grounds for the abuse charge.

Statute or case precedent?

 

[MiraclesHappen]

The State will have the evidence to put on a prima facie case for each crime charged. I say this because each element of each crime can be proved using circumstantial evidence.
Whether or not it rises to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt will be in the hands of the jurors.

But to suggest that a prosecutors office plays games with death penalty charges when the evidence is not sufficient to sustain a prima facie showing is to suggest a complete breakdown of the system. I do not see that happening here based on the evidence we know of. We do not know what else is in the possession of the prosecutors and LE.

When one combines all the forensics, there may well be compelling evidence of premeditation or agg. child abuse. I doubt it's a precedent issue. More of a subjective jury decision.

jmho

 

[faefrost]

I think they have enough to press and get a conviction on 1st degree murder. However I do not think they have enough to outright horrify a jury sufficiently to get them to sentance a young girl to death.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

But to suggest that a prosecutors office plays games with death penalty charges when the evidence is not sufficient to sustain a prima facie showing is to suggest a complete breakdown of the system. I do not see that happening here based on the evidence we know of.

SNIP

When one combines all the forensics, there may well be compelling evidence of premeditation or agg. child abuse. I doubt it's a precedent issue. More of a subjective jury decision.

jmho

I did not suggest it, but scare charging so as to obtain a plea deal happens thousands of times a day across this country.

As for a complete breakdown of our system, do not think that Mike Nifong and the Duke Lacrosse rape case does not represent everyday prosecutor ethics to a great degree.

 

[MiraclesHappen]

I did not suggest it, but scare charging so as to obtain a plea deal happens thousands of times a day across this country.


As for a complete breakdown of our system, do not think that Mike Nifong and the Duke Lacrosse rape case does not represent everyday prosecutor ethics to a great degree.

Well reality is that in general, prosecuting offices do not have the manpower to try every case that makes a file in their office. They are known to be understaffed and underpaid. Yes I realize the bigger guns make good money, but the rank and file have a struggle. They cannot do a trial for every case. Both sides play games. It is the nature of the beast.

I believe there are "bad apples" in every profession. I will never believe that the majority of any group, including prosecutors are dripping with evil intent.

To suggest that everyday prosecutor ethics across the land are lacking or flawed is wild conjecture, in my humble opinion...
jmho

 

[JBean]

Hello JBean, I trust all is well with you.

It's impossible for me to see the evidence source that would prove premeditation (murder one) or malice aforethought (murder two) beyond a reasonable doubt.

Some posters have mentioned LE air sampling the trunk for chloroform. However, I know of no case precedent that provides for any such evidence being admitted to the level of inculpatory evidence, which evidence law requires.

I remember having the same pre-trial argument on the dog tracking evidence in the Peterson case. I said then if it was admitted, it would only be admitted as corroborative evidence. That proved to be true.

In any event, sufficiency of evidence to prove premeditation, malice aforethought or any unlawful killing will almost assuredly be the central issue.

This is why I look forward to your posts. straight to the matter.

I thought Cadaver dogs were always only corroborative evidence?

 

[Wudge]

This is why I look forward to your posts. straight to the matter.

I thought Cadaver dogs were always only corroborative evidence?

JBean, it was not cadaver dog evidence that Judge Delucchi ruled admissable, it was tracking dog evidence; i.e, a dog named Trimble that allegedly picked up Laci's scent at the marina.

As a point of interest, cadaver dogs locate the scent of death. However, death scents are generic. They are not specific to a certain individual.

 

[LeLe1953]

I hope so, but I am not convinced. What do you guys think?

:behindbar Heck yes I do. The dogs, the decomp, the lies. I do not think it would have gone to a GJ if they didnt have a lot. Prosecuters don't bring cases to loose and LE doesn't just spin their wheels. They have done an OUTSTANDING job on this case. :behindbar

 

[LeLe1953]

I DEFINITELY think they have enough to get a 1st degree murder charge and I believe she will be convicted. I do hope she is there giving them info on where caylee is in order not to get the death penalty and only life without parole.

Oh she will be found guilty. But I don't want the DP off the table at all. Her choices are A> tell us where Caylee is & you can get the needle, which is really far kinder than the Caylee probably died. OR B> DON'T tell us and you get the chair. Its real simple A or B. I am so ready to go there and have a come to Jesus meeting with this chick. Course I cant but I sure would like to speak my mind. Can she get mail at jail? And I dont mean hate mail or threating mail, I just mean a straight up this is how I think kinda thing.

 

[LeLe1953]

I'm not trying to be so terribly gross, but I keep thinking that there HAD to be quite a bit of remains or fluid for such an overwhelming smell and the maggots in the garbage bag in the trunk, right?? Because to me, as the evidence is, there's sooo many holes that can be punched in the prosecutions case....JMO

Well last night on NG, LP said they did have fluid on the outside of the bag.

 

[LeLe1953]

I hope so, from what's out there now, if I were a juror, I wouldn't be able to convict.

I guess I am confused. On the Antony side we have a child not seen for more than a month br grand parents. During which time mom is out partying, getting her freak on, shopping on everyone else's dime with NO toddler items being purchased. Had no job but had a nanny for 2 yrs. This nanny must be paid very well as she alway had caylee at Disney or the beach. No calls on any Anthony phone to or from a nannie. ALL her friend are in there but NOT on under sitter or nanny. Story..in Orlando for work with a job she never had. story......on vacation with Jeff Hopkins..u know he has a kid & he introduced her to Zanny. KC was even telling mom they were looking to live together & make the family work. Ah, she wasnt with him, he has children, never knew a zanny & most of all he did not he &KC were engaged and gonna make the family work. Could go on & on on her side.

As far as LE, we have trained K9 dogs, decomp in the trunk, strange searches on the internet. KC saying to friend baby was with mom, telling mom kid with nanny. Sworn statement, polygraph test and a whole host of evidence.
If you dont think they have enough, I would have to ask if you have read ALL the pages released & heard all the interviews. I just dont think there is any doubt after that that they have put together a great case. Casey has some LE officers who were/are committed to finding this child. Most familie s would kiss their feet &thank them for being so dedicated.

We all have our thoughts & I wont knock you for having yours. That is debate works.