RN and persons with a key

[Maikai]

Exactly DeeDee, thanks for the great post. Let's not forget about the fact that the window was closed that morning. The LE were downstairs that morning, as was FW and noone noticed an open window. Only JR claims to have seen the window open a bit and this was after he went downstairs later that morning. His daughter is kidnapped and he sees an open basement window but never yells for LE to come see it and doesn't remember to even tell anyone about when he went back upstairs??? Plus, if I remember correctly, he closed it.

John Ramsey told Linda Arndt about the window. Officer French missed opening the wine cellar door. Fleet White noticed the suitcase and moved it. I don't think the window at the time was a priority, because the focus was on finding JBR.

 

[ziggy]

Keep up the good work Maikai. BTW @Maikai what ever happened to LP? She joined this forum for a while...

 

[MurriFlower]

John Ramsey told Linda Arndt about the window. Officer French missed opening the wine cellar door. Fleet White noticed the suitcase and moved it. I don't think the window at the time was a priority, because the focus was on finding JBR.

The boot mark down the wall under the window would indicate someone at sometime climbed out or attempted to.

 

[BBB167893]

The broken window wasn't the point of egress. That break was a very small section of glass that JR admitted breaking himself previously. No one went in or out of that window because the window well grate had not been moved. How do we know? Because a spider web was still spun across it and it would have been impossible to move the grate without breaking the web. The debris in the window well was not disturbed either.
The Rs alarm system wasn't activated. JR said they never used it.

Unless the perp was a vampire and slipped through the grate by transforming into mist and back again, I think we can rule the window out.

 

[MurriFlower]

Unless the perp was a vampire and slipped through the grate by transforming into mist and back again, I think we can rule the window out.

Perhaps you exaggerate! Didn't Lou Smit demonstrate that it could be done on TV?

 

[BBB167893]

It is just a theory. In fact, it was Lou Smit's theory. It was FW who moved the suitcase under the window. That suitcase would never have supported anyone standing on it to climb UP a wall. And they couldn't have used it to climb IN- how could they put a suitcase under a window they hadn't climbed in yet?
The spider web evidence is well documented by LE and can be seen in some crime scene photos.

Aw, heck, DD! You beat me to it!

Regardless of what IDI thinks of the police, their statements are NOT lies. To here IDI talk, you'd think every bit of evidence or clue was a police lie.

That's IDI's claim, DD. And has been for a long time. I ought to know. So the next time an IDI accuses someone of using "wildcard" explanations, just remember that we learned from the masters.

 

[DeeDee249]

Try this link. Scroll down to the suitcase photos which are crime scene pictures. There were also small pieces of broken glass on the suitcase. The theory is the perp used it to step on to boost himself out the window. Fibers found from inside the suitcase were also found on JBR's clothing, with that theory being the perp tried to put her in the suitcase, but couldn't get it out the window.

As you said, FW was the one who moved the suitcase to the spot under the window, so no perp put it there. If fibers from inside the suitcase were found on JB (do you have a link for that?) it may have been because JB had been laying on the comforter/blanket that was found inside the suitcase with semen stains from her half brother JAR, along with a children's book. A portable child molestation kit.
JR himself admitted breaking and climbing in that window previously, so the scuff mark on the wall was his.
Too bad a better forensic study wasn't made on things like this. If one of JR's shoes made that scuff mark, miniscule particles of leather/polish/dye would be in that scuff and could be tested against JR's shoes.
Both the wall and the shoes are gone now, so to quote Dr. Lee: "That rice already cooked".

 

[BBB167893]

Perhaps you exaggerate! Didn't Lou Smit demonstrate that it could be done on TV?

Take a look at how I phrased it, MurriFlower. I said "through the grate," not through the window. IOWs, he'd have to be able to slip through the grate without lifting it from the window well.

And as for what Lou demonstrated on TV, I remember seeing that. I remember a skinny man with no winter clothing on squirming around like a snake, dragging his rear end all over the sill, then calling it "easy." As I've said in the past, that little performance is one of the reasons why I switched from IDI to RDI. Not the ONLY reason, mind you, Just one.

 

[MurriFlower]

Take a look at how I phrased it, MurriFlower. I said "through the grate," not through the window. IOWs, he'd have to be able to slip through the grate without lifting it from the window well.

And as for what Lou demonstrated on TV, I remember seeing that. I remember a skinny man with no winter clothing on squirming around like a snake, dragging his rear end all over the sill, then calling it "easy." As I've said in the past, that little performance is one of the reasons why I switched from IDI to RDI. Not the ONLY reason, mind you, Just one.

Ok, we accept that JR gained access through there, by removing the grate and breaking the window when he locked himself out? Was he a skinny man? Could he have been as agile as a snake and dragged his rear end over the sill? Apparently so.

Do you think that if someone came in through there they would have moved the grate, and they wouldn't replace it when they left? Do you think they were overweight/infirm and encumbered by heavy winter clothing?

Personally I think they came and went through the doors, but that suitcase under the window and the mark on the wall indicates someone climbed up there at least.

 

[Zak]

John Ramsey told Linda Arndt about the window. Officer French missed opening the wine cellar door. Fleet White noticed the suitcase and moved it. I don't think the window at the time was a priority, because the focus was on finding JBR.

I just finished looking over the police interviews with JR and can't find where he says he told Arndt about the open window. Can you point me in the right direction so I can read what JR says? I just find it difficult to believe that two other people were in the basement prior to JR and they didn't notice the open window. Only JR does. I can't think of why an open window, with a broken pane, in the middle of winter, in the basement of a home that a 6yr old was kidnapped from would not be a priority for Office French or Fleet.

I know that Office French missed opening the wine cellar door but so did JR. Afterall, JR was down there looking around, so why didn't he open the wine cellar door?

 

[BBB167893]

Ok, we accept that JR gained access through there, by removing the grate and breaking the window when he locked himself out?

I think so.

Was he a skinny man?

Relatively so.

Could he have been as agile as a snake and dragged his rear end over the sill? Apparently so.

Yes. He even said that it was not easy when he made that little sojourn.

Do you think that if someone came in through there they would have moved the grate, and they wouldn't replace it when they left?

Yes, I do. On both counts. For one thing, why would they replace the grate when they left?

Do you think they were overweight/infirm and encumbered by heavy winter clothing?

I don't know about overweight or infirm. That wasn't my point. My point was that a skinny man with no winter clothing had a difficult time doing it, and we're supposed to believe that a relatively powerfully-built person wearing who-knows-what managed to slip through the window without even disturbing the debris at the base of the window well (take a look at the photos if you don't believe me--not even a footprint was found) and then went OUT the same way without leaving so much as a handprint when at least two people that we know of (LS and JR) COULDN'T do it.

As for encumbered by heavy winter clothing, DEFINITELY. One, winter in Colorado is only about three steps up from Antarctica. Two, he'd need to have something with a lot of pockets to haul all of the cord, tape and other supposed tools in with him.

Anybody else see what's wrong with that picture?

Personally I think they came and went through the doors, but that suitcase under the window and the mark on the wall indicates someone climbed up there at least.

The doors idea I can at least get my head around.

 

[madeleine]

I just finished looking over the police interviews with JR and can't find where he says he told Arndt about the open window. Can you point me in the right direction so I can read what JR says?

IIRC he never mentions it in a LE interview,he only mentions it on TV but I don't recall in which show now.

 

[Maikai]

Keep up the good work Maikai. BTW @Maikai what ever happened to LP? She joined this forum for a while...

I don't know what happened to LP.....she was on the other forum and this one for a long time and then just kind of dropped off (like many others). I tend to drop out for a while and then something comes up and I pop in. I'm going to Colorado next week, and will stop in Boulder, which always brings the case back to me.

 

[Maikai]

The boot mark down the wall under the window would indicate someone at sometime climbed out or attempted to.

When Lou Smit demonstrated going in and out of the window, he thought the mark could have been left by someone coming in. I don't know if that could have been left by John Ramsey when he broke the window, but the feeling was it was more recent.

 

[Maikai]

I just finished looking over the police interviews with JR and can't find where he says he told Arndt about the open window. Can you point me in the right direction so I can read what JR says? I just find it difficult to believe that two other people were in the basement prior to JR and they didn't notice the open window. Only JR does. I can't think of why an open window, with a broken pane, in the middle of winter, in the basement of a home that a 6yr old was kidnapped from would not be a priority for Office French or Fleet.

I know that Office French missed opening the wine cellar door but so did JR. Afterall, JR was down there looking around, so why didn't he open the wine cellar door?

I don't know where the reference is....might have been in the Ramseys book..or an interview, and I don't remember exactly what he said. I just recall JR saying somewhere that he mentioned the window to Linda Arndt. I find it difficult to believe too that the window wasn't noticed by French or anyone else earlier. I think French just did a brief inspection looking for JBR--not necessarily anything else at that point. Fleet White noticed the suitcase under the window---and I think both he and JR were in the basement when JR told him he had broken the window earlier.

 

[Maikai]

As you said, FW was the one who moved the suitcase to the spot under the window, so no perp put it there. If fibers from inside the suitcase were found on JB (do you have a link for that?) it may have been because JB had been laying on the comforter/blanket that was found inside the suitcase with semen stains from her half brother JAR, along with a children's book. A portable child molestation kit.
JR himself admitted breaking and climbing in that window previously, so the scuff mark on the wall was his.
Too bad a better forensic study wasn't made on things like this. If one of JR's shoes made that scuff mark, miniscule particles of leather/polish/dye would be in that scuff and could be tested against JR's shoes.
Both the wall and the shoes are gone now, so to quote Dr. Lee: "That rice already cooked".

Fleet White didn't move the suitcase under the window--it was already there and he noticed that and may have moved it a little. Lou Smit theorized that the perp tried to put JBR in the suitcase, and may have tried to get it out the window but couldn't. It's in print somewhere, but I remember him saying fibers matched those of the blanket.

It's not clear when the scuff mark was made. You'd think Patsy or LHP would have remembered if there was a mark after JR climbed in. You're right about a better forensic study----miniscule particles could have been matched to a hi-tec boot too.

I always wondered if the perp smoked, and used the suitcase to stand on and blow smoke out of the window.....and if they had any cigarette butts within throwing distance from the window. If the perp was a smoker, and would have been in the house for any amount of time, the odds are he would have needed a smoke once in a while.

 

[GingBreade]

I always wondered if the perp smoked, and used the suitcase to stand on and blow smoke out of the window.....and if they had any cigarette butts within throwing distance from the window. If the perp was a smoker, and would have been in the house for any amount of time, the odds are he would have needed a smoke once in a while.

Are you kidding me? The perp smoked and stood on the suitcase to blow his smoke out? please tell me you are joking. I need a smoke listening to this scenario.

 

[MurriFlower]

I always wondered if the perp smoked, and used the suitcase to stand on and blow smoke out of the window.....and if they had any cigarette butts within throwing distance from the window. If the perp was a smoker, and would have been in the house for any amount of time, the odds are he would have needed a smoke once in a while.

Are you kidding me? The perp smoked and stood on the suitcase to blow his smoke out? please tell me you are joking. I need a smoke listening to this scenario.

Oh goody, another new poster!!

It does sound a bit unlikely the standing on the suitcase to blow smoke out the window eh?

I expect that if the IDI WAS a smoker, then the waiting and tension would have given rise to a lot of butts. Where would they have gone? There were apparently quite a large number in a lane behind the Rs house. Did he give up when he was inside? Unlikely. This idea isn't as silly as it sounds Ging!

 

[DeeDee249]

Oh goody, another new poster!!

It does sound a bit unlikely the standing on the suitcase to blow smoke out the window eh?

I expect that if the IDI WAS a smoker, then the waiting and tension would have given rise to a lot of butts. Where would they have gone? There were apparently quite a large number in a lane behind the Rs house. Did he give up when he was inside? Unlikely. This idea isn't as silly as it sounds Ging!

Sure it is.

 

[DeeDee249]

Fleet White didn't move the suitcase under the window--it was already there and he noticed that and may have moved it a little. Lou Smit theorized that the perp tried to put JBR in the suitcase, and may have tried to get it out the window but couldn't. It's in print somewhere, but I remember him saying fibers matched those of the blanket.

It's not clear when the scuff mark was made. You'd think Patsy or LHP would have remembered if there was a mark after JR climbed in. You're right about a better forensic study----miniscule particles could have been matched to a hi-tec boot too.

I always wondered if the perp smoked, and used the suitcase to stand on and blow smoke out of the window.....and if they had any cigarette butts within throwing distance from the window. If the perp was a smoker, and would have been in the house for any amount of time, the odds are he would have needed a smoke once in a while.

FW said he moved it there. LS jumped all over it (the suitcase being there). There is absolutely no way to "date" that scuff mark. The only way would be if there was a dated photograph (with a date on it made by a digital camera) showing the wall without the mark. Even then, there would be no way tp date the mark except to say that previous to the date of the photograph, it wasn't there. NOTHING indicates that scuff mark as being "recent". Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. No way to tell.
As for the window grate, any perp putting the grate back would have also re-spin the spider web, as spiders are not active in that area in December. The spider web across the grate was intact, and it was not possible to move the grate without breaking it.