Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #13

[keek]

Navalny was pretty much a hero IMO

He was the ultimate hero.

 

[branmuffin]

We do not have any foreign bases here in the US, but we have plenty of foreign servicemembers here at the US bases working and going to schools and training. My source is I live on a base and know some of them, I've lived at other bases where they are working and training.

I don't see that any agreement has changed. We have Americans all over Europe ready to defend. We do not have a base in Ukraine. I also don't see the deal that was proposed as the US wanting money for nothing. We have provided money and resources already.

So just curious, Poland, a member of NATO has provided full-throated support for Zelensky and Ukraine. It's pointless to explain why. They also have a missile base in Poland that was built by the US. Last year the ownership of the base was passed to NATO. There are still about 10K US troops in Poland. I'm not sure where they are posted. If Poland feels the situation with Ukraine and Russia are escalating and his confidence in Donald Trump's motives are eroded then what happens to those US troops in Poland or in any country in Europe. Do they just up and leave? The exception would be Germany.

 

[Stella123]

Hopefully Trump's plan is to just leave Ukraine stewing for a couple of days, and then "unpause" the intelligence and relief for Ukraine.

 

[Stella123]

So just curious, Poland, a member of NATO has provided full-throated support for Zelensky and Ukraine. It's pointless to explain why. They also have a missile base in Poland that was built by the US. Last year the ownership of the base was passed to NATO. There are still about 10K US troops in Poland. I'm not sure where they are posted. If Poland feels the situation with Ukraine and Russia are escalating and his confidence in Donald Trump's motives are eroded then what happens to those US troops in Poland or in any country in Europe. Do they just up and leave? The exception would be Germany.

It's a good question. I have no idea!

 

[STAGNUM]

Hopefully Trump's plan is to just leave Ukraine stewing for a couple of days, and then "unpause" the intelligence and relief for Ukraine.

People will die in the meantime. Wasn't trump concerned about that. He used that argument on Zelenskyy while hounding him.

 

[JennieM]

People will die in the meantime. Wasn't trump concerned about that. He used that argument on Zelenskyy while hounding him.

The peace president …

 

[keek]

People will die in the meantime. Wasn't trump concerned about that. He used that argument on Zelenskyy while hounding him.

You see the ongoing irrationality. It is never about lives.

 

[Arkay]

Full list of Putin critics who have died in mysterious ci...

Numerous critics of Russian President Vladimir Putin have died in mysterious circumstances throughout his reign.

www.newsweek.com

I mentioned Navalny somewhere upthread.

Above is a list of just some of the more prominent critics of Putin who have died by poison, been shot, “fallen” out of windows, died in inhumane Siberian prisons etc., not even counting those who survived, like the Skripal father and daughter who were hiding in England.

If you go against Putin, he will eventually find you. This is part of why I see Zelenskyy as a very brave man.

I recommend that anyone interested read Navalny’s memoir, Patriot. He was dead by the time it was published. He writes about his near-death from Novichok, his refusal to back down, and most of the memoir is from his final prison years. It gives a wealth of insight into who Putin truly is and how far he’s willing to go to dispose of anyone who opposes him.

It astonishes me that any leader of a democracy would align with, much less flatter Putin, but I know Trump reveres him for being an autocrat.

Where is the list of critics of Zelenskyy who have been murdered around the world??

Oh, that’s right, there isn’t one.

He’s just trying to save his country from being devoured by Russia. Ukrainians were going about their lives when this madman Putin decided he’d prefer to have Ukraine for himself.

All my opinion.

IMO it seems a reminder is needed of Alexei Navalny. And more needs to be stated publicly about the nature of his life, imprisonment, and death. And those that may have been responsible.

Navalny was pretty much a hero IMO

 

[Stella123]

People will die in the meantime. Wasn't trump concerned about that. He used that argument on Zelenskyy while hounding him.

Yes and that is unforgiveable. He is a long way from the battleground, playing silly games with peoples lives.

 

[Donswife48]

Another early part of history on the early peace proposals for the Russian-Ukraine war.

Istanbul Communiqué (2022)
Russia and Ukraine started peace negotiations the next day after the start of the Russian invasion, on 28 February 2022 in Belarus. Initially, Russia demanded Ukraine's effective capitulation. While the Russian blitzkrieg plan to take Kyiv stalled a series of further meetings took place. By the end of March 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators were successful in getting their positions closer together. After failing to blitz-takeover Kyiv and Kharkiv, taking heavy casualties and being forced to retreat off Kyiv oblast, Putin, as reported by the US magazine Foreign Affairs, was ready to put the status of Crimea up for discussion.

The negotiating teams produced the Istanbul Communiqué, "Key Provisions of the Treaty on Ukraine's Security Guarantees" – a framework of a possible agreement. The treaty would declare Ukraine to be allowed to apply for EU membership and to be a neutral state; put a limit on the size of its military forces; cease NATO membership plans; forbid foreign military bases; and list Russia and Western countries, among which were the US and the UK, as guarantors, obliged to assist Ukraine in case of aggression against it . The status of Crimea would have to be negotiated after 10 to 15 years

Following the discovery of the Bucha massacre at the beginning of April 2022 and public anger in Ukraine at the atrocities, Zelenskyy called for Russia to be expelled from the United Nations Security Council, but intense work on the treaty continued. Disagreements still present included Ukraine's military forces' size, and Russia's newly raised demand that in the event of an attack, guarantors come to Ukraine's defense "on the basis of a decision agreed to by all guarantor states", thus giving Russia the possibility to veto a military response by the guarantors. Ukraine rejected the demand and the UK informed Ukraine it would not sign on or guarantee any agreement made with Russia.

The talks stopped in May 2022 without reaching an agreement. Putin claimed that Ukraine rejected the deal under pressure from the West. Others saw the negotiations only as a distraction to allow regrouping.

I'm somewhat of a history buff, and love to read past details as well as current. I urge others with a open mind to read all about Ukraine and Russia's failed attempts of peace negotiations. JMO MOO

Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[UK Girl]

Another early part of history on the early peace proposals for the Russian-Ukraine war.

Istanbul Communiqué (2022)
Russia and Ukraine started peace negotiations the next day after the start of the Russian invasion, on 28 February 2022 in Belarus. Initially, Russia demanded Ukraine's effective capitulation. While the Russian blitzkrieg plan to take Kyiv stalled a series of further meetings took place. By the end of March 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators were successful in getting their positions closer together. After failing to blitz-takeover Kyiv and Kharkiv, taking heavy casualties and being forced to retreat off Kyiv oblast, Putin, as reported by the US magazine Foreign Affairs, was ready to put the status of Crimea up for discussion.

The negotiating teams produced the Istanbul Communiqué, "Key Provisions of the Treaty on Ukraine's Security Guarantees" – a framework of a possible agreement. The treaty would declare Ukraine to be allowed to apply for EU membership and to be a neutral state; put a limit on the size of its military forces; cease NATO membership plans; forbid foreign military bases; and list Russia and Western countries, among which were the US and the UK, as guarantors, obliged to assist Ukraine in case of aggression against it . The status of Crimea would have to be negotiated after 10 to 15 years

Following the discovery of the Bucha massacre at the beginning of April 2022 and public anger in Ukraine at the atrocities, Zelenskyy called for Russia to be expelled from the United Nations Security Council, but intense work on the treaty continued. Disagreements still present included Ukraine's military forces' size, and Russia's newly raised demand that in the event of an attack, guarantors come to Ukraine's defense "on the basis of a decision agreed to by all guarantor states", thus giving Russia the possibility to veto a military response by the guarantors. Ukraine rejected the demand and the UK informed Ukraine it would not sign on or guarantee any agreement made with Russia.

The talks stopped in May 2022 without reaching an agreement. Putin claimed that Ukraine rejected the deal under pressure from the West. Others saw the negotiations only as a distraction to allow regrouping.

I'm somewhat of a history buff, and love to read past details as well as current. I urge others with a open mind to read all about Ukraine and Russia's failed attempts of peace negotiations. JMO MOO

Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tbh had Russia not illegally invaded Ukraine there would not have been a problem. Ukraine should not have to negotiate with an illegal invader who has stolen thousands upon thousands of kids, raped young girls in front of their parents and then killed some of them. Left mass graves all over the place. You do not negotiate with people like that

Incidentally agreements mean nothing to those thugs.

 

[LibraStarr]

Another early part of history on the early peace proposals for the Russian-Ukraine war.

Istanbul Communiqué (2022)
Russia and Ukraine started peace negotiations the next day after the start of the Russian invasion, on 28 February 2022 in Belarus. Initially, Russia demanded Ukraine's effective capitulation. While the Russian blitzkrieg plan to take Kyiv stalled a series of further meetings took place. By the end of March 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators were successful in getting their positions closer together. After failing to blitz-takeover Kyiv and Kharkiv, taking heavy casualties and being forced to retreat off Kyiv oblast, Putin, as reported by the US magazine Foreign Affairs, was ready to put the status of Crimea up for discussion.

The negotiating teams produced the Istanbul Communiqué, "Key Provisions of the Treaty on Ukraine's Security Guarantees" – a framework of a possible agreement. The treaty would declare Ukraine to be allowed to apply for EU membership and to be a neutral state; put a limit on the size of its military forces; cease NATO membership plans; forbid foreign military bases; and list Russia and Western countries, among which were the US and the UK, as guarantors, obliged to assist Ukraine in case of aggression against it . The status of Crimea would have to be negotiated after 10 to 15 years

Following the discovery of the Bucha massacre at the beginning of April 2022 and public anger in Ukraine at the atrocities, Zelenskyy called for Russia to be expelled from the United Nations Security Council, but intense work on the treaty continued. Disagreements still present included Ukraine's military forces' size, and Russia's newly raised demand that in the event of an attack, guarantors come to Ukraine's defense "on the basis of a decision agreed to by all guarantor states", thus giving Russia the possibility to veto a military response by the guarantors. Ukraine rejected the demand and the UK informed Ukraine it would not sign on or guarantee any agreement made with Russia.

The talks stopped in May 2022 without reaching an agreement. Putin claimed that Ukraine rejected the deal under pressure from the West. Others saw the negotiations only as a distraction to allow regrouping.

I'm somewhat of a history buff, and love to read past details as well as current. I urge others with a open mind to read all about Ukraine and Russia's failed attempts of peace negotiations. JMO MOO

Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Can you clarify? Are you saying Ukraine should have accepted the deal, even with Russia’s veto power over its security?

 

[Donswife48]

Can you clarify? Are you saying Ukraine should have accepted the deal, even with Russia’s veto power over its security?

No, I am only suggesting that people need to read the past attempts at ending the war with a peace agreement. I don't side with either, but it's important to read how many attempts there have been, and the people that have tried. Zelensky even rejected the Pope's attempt at peace. JMO MOO

 

[LibraStarr]

No, I am only suggesting that people need to read the past attempts at ending the war with a peace agreement. I don't side with either, but it's important to read how many attempts there have been, and the people that have tried. Zelensky even rejected the Pope's attempt at peace. JMO MOO

IMO

Reading about past negotiations is important, but context matters. Ukraine hasn’t rejected peace—they’ve rejected bad deals that would have left them vulnerable or legitimized Russia’s aggression. The Istanbul Communiqué, for example, included security guarantees that weren’t actually guarantees, since Russia wanted veto power over any response. And let’s not forget that Russia has a long history of breaking agreements, including the Minsk Accords. Ukraine has every reason to be wary of ‘peace’ proposals that demand their surrender without real security in return.

 

[Sundog]

45m ago23.50 GMT

Senate Democrats introduce resolutions calling on Russia to withdraw from Ukraine​

Senate Democrats are currently on the Senate floor introducing resolutionscondemning Russia for the invasion of Ukraine, and daring Republicans to object.

A statement from the office of Senator Bernie Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Democrats, said: “The senators’ resolutions are statements of fact and principle, backed by evidence and long-standing American foreign policy”.

The six resolutions, Sanders’ office explained, would state the following facts:

• Clarifying that Russia started the war against Ukraine.
• Condemning Putin and Russian forces for their widespread war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine.
• Condemning Russia’s forcible abduction of at least 20,000 Ukrainian children and calls for their return to their families.
• Reaffirming the support of the United States for Ukraine’s sovereignty in the face of Russia’s invasion.
• Restating a simple but fundamental principle of international law and global stability: that you do not take the territory of another country by force.
• Demanding that Putin immediately withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine, cease his attacks, and end this terrible war.

A resolution from Sanders, calling on the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, to withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine was objected to by Republican Senator James Risch.

As Igor Bobic of HuffPost reported, Risch claimed that Putin “does not have the ability to end this war” without the agreement of Ukraine, the US and its European allies.

“Who do you think started the war?” Sanders replied. “He can do it.”

The same Republican also objected to a resolution from Democratic Senator Dick Durbin, who asked for unanimous consent on a resolution condemning the kidnapping of Ukrainian children by Russia.

Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen then introduced a resolution stating that Russia had committed war crimes in Ukraine. That resolution was objected to by Republican Senator Roger Wicker.

Wicker then also objected to a resolution affirming Ukraine’s territorial sovereignty introduced by Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal. Wicker’s objection was breifly interrupted by the ringing of his mobile phone.

Democratic Senator Michael Bennet was next on the floor, loudly complaining about the US cutting off intelligence sharing with Ukraine. “Ronald Reagan is turning over in his grave,” Bennet said, over a US national security strategy apparently concocted on social media.

He then yielded the floor and was followed by Democratic Senator Peter Welch, who asked: “Which side are we on?” He introduced a resolution that the US remains committed to the principle that no nation should use force to violate the territorial integrity of another country. Republican Senator John Barrasso objected.

Senate Democrats condemn Russia over Ukraine war and dare Republicans to object – as it happened

Democrats introduce resolutions on Senate floor, as Trump veterans affairs chief defends plans to cut 80,000 staff

www.theguardian.com

Political theatre.
In the midst of peace talks and negotiations, inappropriate.

 

[UK Girl]

Political theatre.
In the midst of peace talks and negotiations, inappropriate.

Tbh the best thing for Ukraine WOULD be for them to withdraw from Ukraine and to be honest right now..an awful lot of things are inappropriate

 

[statt#1]

I believe it dangerous to totally ignore the Russian point of view, TRUMP is clearly aware of this, and here are a just few reads that shed a wee bit of light on the matter.

A very nice little vid of NATO expansion....

MSN

This is an interesting read, though appears a few years old....

Did NATO Expansion Really Cause Putin’s Invasion?

A seasoned diplomat considers this question in light of his own experience.

afsa.org

A revealing history....

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

View attachment 568316

 

[Donswife48]

IMO

Reading about past negotiations is important, but context matters. Ukraine hasn’t rejected peace—they’ve rejected bad deals that would have left them vulnerable or legitimized Russia’s aggression. The Istanbul Communiqué, for example, included security guarantees that weren’t actually guarantees, since Russia wanted veto power over any response. And let’s not forget that Russia has a long history of breaking agreements, including the Minsk Accords. Ukraine has every reason to be wary of ‘peace’ proposals that demand their surrender without real security in return.

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

 

[UK Girl]

I believe it dangerous to totally ignore the Russian point of view, TRUMP is clearly aware of this, and here are a just few reads that shed a wee bit of light on the matter.

A very nice little vid of NATO expansion....

MSN

This is an interesting read, though appears a few years old....

Did NATO Expansion Really Cause Putin’s Invasion?

A seasoned diplomat considers this question in light of his own experience.

afsa.org

A revealing history....

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

View attachment 568316

I will never understand Putins point of view or of Trumps tbh after the last few weeks.

 

[UK Girl]

Zelenksy to Francis: "Thanks, But No Thanks" - Inside The Vatican

After the Pope’s allusions to possible Vatican efforts toward peace and much subsequent speculation, Pope Francis met on Saturday, May 13 — the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition in 1917 – with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. He ended the meeting without achieving what he sought...

insidethevatican.com

I agree with Zelensky tbh